Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[green_bballers13]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvwVc1JArjM

Joe Mazula offense in microscope

That rant is EXACTLY how I also feel watching this team.
The two superstars are dumb enough as it is. Add in a literally brain-dead coach and you have a huge cluster.
It's incomprehensible to me that players and coaches at this level are playing such bad basketball and seem oblivious to that fact.
If Brad is watching this and is not alarmed, then something is very wrong with our franchise.

The Celtics had the best offense in the NBA this year. Game 2 was terrible but can we please take a deep breath and have a memory that lasts longer than 2 days?

A long memory is the problem.  We all watched last year and are having flashbacks.

Is there a forum friendly term for people that have strong emotional reactions at the first glimpse of adversity? I think if we could come up with a common vocabulary, many would be less offended. I like snowflake, but that might be strong. Maybe something equivalent to woke?

[tenn_smoothie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvwVc1JArjM

Joe Mazula offense in microscope

That rant is EXACTLY how I also feel watching this team.
The two superstars are dumb enough as it is. Add in a literally brain-dead coach and you have a huge cluster.
It's incomprehensible to me that players and coaches at this level are playing such bad basketball and seem oblivious to that fact.
If Brad is watching this and is not alarmed, then something is very wrong with our franchise.

The Celtics had the best offense in the NBA this year. Game 2 was terrible but can we please take a deep breath and have a memory that lasts longer than 2 days?

A long memory is the problem.  We all watched last year and are having flashbacks.

Is there a forum friendly term for people that have strong emotional reactions at the first glimpse of adversity? I think if we could come up with a common vocabulary, many would be less offended. I like snowflake, but that might be strong. Maybe something equivalent to woke?

I understand your point, but for this team, the regular seasons have proved to be fool's gold more than once and the flaws they do have get exposed in the playoffs, which are simply a different animal. We have the most talent in the league which allows us to overcome bad coaching during the season. The playoffs are what us critics are concerned with and game 2 was a perfect example of our weak-minded players and incompetent coach failing us. I'm very happy the Celts came out strong and took control of game 3, but I do not trust Joe or Tatum/Brown either, for that matter. Let's both hope that I am wrong and our superior talent can win a title.

[angryguy77]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvwVc1JArjM

Joe Mazula offense in microscope

That rant is EXACTLY how I also feel watching this team.
The two superstars are dumb enough as it is. Add in a literally brain-dead coach and you have a huge cluster.
It's incomprehensible to me that players and coaches at this level are playing such bad basketball and seem oblivious to that fact.
If Brad is watching this and is not alarmed, then something is very wrong with our franchise.

The Celtics had the best offense in the NBA this year. Game 2 was terrible but can we please take a deep breath and have a memory that lasts longer than 2 days?

A long memory is the problem.  We all watched last year and are having flashbacks.

Is there a forum friendly term for people that have strong emotional reactions at the first glimpse of adversity? I think if we could come up with a common vocabulary, many would be less offended. I like snowflake, but that might be strong. Maybe something equivalent to woke?

Is it really an overreaction when they showed the same qeak flaws in game 2 that have led to their undoing in the past?

We changed the dynamics of the team by trading some guys away, we had hoped gm 2 celtics were gone.

It's awesome we wrecked them tonight, but that gm2 coaching and team will show its face again these playoffs. Let's hope it doesn't cost them.

[Who]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvwVc1JArjM

Joe Mazula offense in microscope

That rant is EXACTLY how I also feel watching this team.
The two superstars are dumb enough as it is. Add in a literally brain-dead coach and you have a huge cluster.
It's incomprehensible to me that players and coaches at this level are playing such bad basketball and seem oblivious to that fact.
If Brad is watching this and is not alarmed, then something is very wrong with our franchise.

The Celtics had the best offense in the NBA this year. Game 2 was terrible but can we please take a deep breath and have a memory that lasts longer than 2 days?

A long memory is the problem.  We all watched last year and are having flashbacks.

Is there a forum friendly term for people that have strong emotional reactions at the first glimpse of adversity? I think if we could come up with a common vocabulary, many would be less offended. I like snowflake, but that might be strong. Maybe something equivalent to woke?

Is it really an overreaction when they showed the same qeak flaws in game 2 that have led to their undoing in the past?

We changed the dynamics of the team by trading some guys away, we had hoped gm 2 celtics were gone.

It's awesome we wrecked them tonight, but that gm2 coaching and team will show its face again these playoffs. Let's hope it doesn't cost them.

Kinda feels like we are in an abusive relationship, then we freak out / overreact at something ... well yeah, because in the past you've messed me around.

The playoff series of the last few years have been head wrecking. Throwing away games. Making tough 7 game series out of what should have been easy wins. Losing series you should have had. So many bad moments. Choking. Turnovers. Shot selection. Defensive breakdowns. Lack of intensity. Bad coaching decisions.

Like I said, like an abusive relationship.

[ozgod]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvwVc1JArjM

Joe Mazula offense in microscope

That rant is EXACTLY how I also feel watching this team.
The two superstars are dumb enough as it is. Add in a literally brain-dead coach and you have a huge cluster.
It's incomprehensible to me that players and coaches at this level are playing such bad basketball and seem oblivious to that fact.
If Brad is watching this and is not alarmed, then something is very wrong with our franchise.

The Celtics had the best offense in the NBA this year. Game 2 was terrible but can we please take a deep breath and have a memory that lasts longer than 2 days?

A long memory is the problem.  We all watched last year and are having flashbacks.

Is there a forum friendly term for people that have strong emotional reactions at the first glimpse of adversity? I think if we could come up with a common vocabulary, many would be less offended. I like snowflake, but that might be strong. Maybe something equivalent to woke?

Is it really an overreaction when they showed the same qeak flaws in game 2 that have led to their undoing in the past?

We changed the dynamics of the team by trading some guys away, we had hoped gm 2 celtics were gone.

It's awesome we wrecked them tonight, but that gm2 coaching and team will show its face again these playoffs. Let's hope it doesn't cost them.

Kinda feels like we are in an abusive relationship, then we freak out / overreact at something ... well yeah, because in the past you've messed me around.

The playoff series of the last few years have been head wrecking. Throwing away games. Making tough 7 game series out of what should have been easy wins. Losing series you should have had. So many bad moments. Choking. Turnovers. Shot selection. Defensive breakdowns. Lack of intensity. Bad coaching decisions.

Like I said, like an abusive relationship.

Yes we love this team but we hate it, probebly more than even non fans do, because they’ve done some horrible things to us. So when they do the horrible thing again we lose our minds, then when they do something good we find ways to day “nah but they will mess it up again, I don’t want to open my heart to them again. Much easier to think they suck.”.

 So we accentuate all the bad things they do and have done, and try to minimize the good things, because to harden our hearts to anything good they do is a way to protect ourselves emotionally…at least till they win a championship. Then we are happy…till next season when the cycle starts all over again 

[angryguy77]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvwVc1JArjM

Joe Mazula offense in microscope

That rant is EXACTLY how I also feel watching this team.
The two superstars are dumb enough as it is. Add in a literally brain-dead coach and you have a huge cluster.
It's incomprehensible to me that players and coaches at this level are playing such bad basketball and seem oblivious to that fact.
If Brad is watching this and is not alarmed, then something is very wrong with our franchise.

The Celtics had the best offense in the NBA this year. Game 2 was terrible but can we please take a deep breath and have a memory that lasts longer than 2 days?

A long memory is the problem.  We all watched last year and are having flashbacks.

Is there a forum friendly term for people that have strong emotional reactions at the first glimpse of adversity? I think if we could come up with a common vocabulary, many would be less offended. I like snowflake, but that might be strong. Maybe something equivalent to woke?

Is it really an overreaction when they showed the same qeak flaws in game 2 that have led to their undoing in the past?

We changed the dynamics of the team by trading some guys away, we had hoped gm 2 celtics were gone.

It's awesome we wrecked them tonight, but that gm2 coaching and team will show its face again these playoffs. Let's hope it doesn't cost them.

Kinda feels like we are in an abusive relationship, then we freak out / overreact at something ... well yeah, because in the past you've messed me around.

The playoff series of the last few years have been head wrecking. Throwing away games. Making tough 7 game series out of what should have been easy wins. Losing series you should have had. So many bad moments. Choking. Turnovers. Shot selection. Defensive breakdowns. Lack of intensity. Bad coaching decisions.

Like I said, like an abusive relationship.

Yes we love this team but we hate it, probebly more than even non fans do, because they’ve done some horrible things to us. So when they do the horrible thing again we lose our minds, then when they do something good we find ways to day “nah but they will mess it up again, I don’t want to open my heart to them again. Much easier to think they suck.”.

 So we accentuate all the bad things they do and have done, and try to minimize the good things, because to harden our hearts to anything good they do is a way to protect ourselves emotionally…at least till they win a championship. Then we are happy…till next season when the cycle starts all over again 

Win a chip and I'll  et everything this board doest react like it did for game 2 in the future. They need to prove themselves first. Until then do that, we'll keep asking if they have it.

[SparzWizard]

The Celtics have literally the easiest path to the NBA Finals in Celtics history. They can't mess it up:

Bucks - Giannis and Dame are each one leg down the grave
76ers - Embiid can barely walk
Knicks - Brunson can't be a championship 1A
Heat - No Butler and Rozier
Cavs/Magic - Cannot score

[ozgod]

Joe's players/apologists have come to his defense after he was pilloried the last few days for his ineptitude in not making adjustments letting such a mediocre team as the Miami Heat win/steal a game from us on our march to the championship and making us fans have a terrible few days.

The narratives after Game 2 were not kind to the Celtics, especially since they dropped a game as a 15½ point favorite and losing home-court advantage. Going back to Miami, a place where they’ve enjoyed playoff highs and lows over the past few years, could have presented a unique mental hurdle.

Mazzulla didn’t react any differently the past few days than after any other loss. He stressed the adjustments. He trusted his players to pivot and move on but also pay greater attention to detail after being humbled in Game 2.

“I think he was calm, he wasn’t worried, he wasn’t fazed,” Pritchard said of Mazzulla. “When you’ve got a coach that’s not fazed, that trickles down to the whole team and I applaud him for that. We follow his lead and how his demeanor is and he’s done a great job this year and he continues to do a great job.

“I mean it’s hard to go undefeated in the playoffs. People think that we’re so talented that we shouldn’t lose but people have better days some days.”

Said Jaylen Brown: “I didn’t notice a difference from Joe. Once we seen the game (film) he didn’t overreact. Miami played incredibly well in Game 2. They shot the hell out of it. I thought we executed our game plan, it’s just that Miami had a really good game.

“Tonight we wanted to come out and make it a little more uncomfortable. There weren’t a lot of adjustments that we made. We’ve just got to make sure we’re the harder playing team.”

Joe also doubled down on his audacious statement that the playoffs are just the same as a normal game and surprisingly renowned Mazz hater Gary Washburn agreed with him.

Mazzulla downplayed the importance of Game 3, but the winner of that game in a 1-1 series takes the series nearly 75 percent of the time. After a 20-point win in Game 1 and then being stunned in Game 2, the Celtics had to regain their mental edge.

“You just have to find that balance of focusing on what’s most important,” he said. “Sometimes you have that much time off (three days), you could easily start to come up with all these things, but at the end of the day the game’s pretty simple. And you’ve got to find the simple things you can execute; the simple things you can take away and how you bring the right mindset and physicality.

“I know it’s mundane and the playoffs create a lot of hysteria but there’s no difference between the regular season and playoff game. You’ve just got to bring it, mentally, physically and emotionally.”

Mazzulla is right. This game is simple. The Celtics needed to play with more passion and desire defensively. They needed to be tougher, fight through screens, knock some screeners down, fight for loose balls. Payton Pritchard frustrated Tyler Herro throughout the evening, so much so that the irritated Herro threw the ball at Sam Hauser after a foul late in the third quarter and picked up a technical foul.

Quotes from https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/04/27/sports/mazzulla-celtics-dominate/

[Kernewek]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvwVc1JArjM

Joe Mazula offense in microscope

That rant is EXACTLY how I also feel watching this team.
The two superstars are dumb enough as it is. Add in a literally brain-dead coach and you have a huge cluster.
It's incomprehensible to me that players and coaches at this level are playing such bad basketball and seem oblivious to that fact.
If Brad is watching this and is not alarmed, then something is very wrong with our franchise.

The Celtics had the best offense in the NBA this year. Game 2 was terrible but can we please take a deep breath and have a memory that lasts longer than 2 days?

A long memory is the problem.  We all watched last year and are having flashbacks.

Is there a forum friendly term for people that have strong emotional reactions at the first glimpse of adversity? I think if we could come up with a common vocabulary, many would be less offended. I like snowflake, but that might be strong. Maybe something equivalent to woke?

Is it really an overreaction when they showed the same qeak flaws in game 2 that have led to their undoing in the past?

We changed the dynamics of the team by trading some guys away, we had hoped gm 2 celtics were gone.

It's awesome we wrecked them tonight, but that gm2 coaching and team will show its face again these playoffs. Let's hope it doesn't cost them.

Yes, it is, but not in the way that you might think.

The fact that the teams lead by Jaylen & Jayson tends to lose games in a similar way does not mean that there is an easy and obvious way to prevent it from happening in the future. I don't want to harp on it more than once a year, but the ability to correctly diagnose a problem does not give anyone's solutions any intrinsic merit.

Like others have said, at a very basic level - unless you thought the team would go undefeated through the postseason - worrying about one loss is probably an overreaction.

[SHAQATTACK]

The Celtics have literally the easiest path to the NBA Finals in Celtics history. They can't mess it up:

Bucks - Giannis and Dame are each one leg down the grave
76ers - Embiid can barely walk
Knicks - Brunson can't be a championship 1A
Heat - No Butler and Rozier
Cavs/Magic - Cannot score

Sometimes it’s about luck or their opponents misfortunes. How many times in history have Celtics look like Champs only to have some team wierd issue or player go down. 
When your turn comes up with Lady Luck , like when Raps snagged Leonard, you gotta  make hay.  Getting a healthy Zinger into the playoffs is sign it’s our time.

[Moranis]

Team again was outscored without Tatum on floor. Tatum was +22 in 39 minutes and they were outscored by 2 in the 9 minutes he was on bench. That isn't that bad, but Brown was only +6 on the game. That is the problematic part. So in the 15 minutes Brown was on the bench, Boston outscored the Heat by 14 and only outscored them by 6 in the 33 minutes Brown was in the game.  We've gone full on back to how it has been for the last 5 or 6 years.  The team needs to play better with Brown and without Tatum or they aren't going to win the title.

[Vermont Green]

Is it really an overreaction... ?

This is the obvious question or the core of this debate.  It is an overreaction in my view when, after one bad loss, you see statements like, "Joe is braindead, he never make adjustments", "Spoelstra is totally out coaching him", and so on.  Joe made adjustments and the team won a big game, but do you see any comments that Mazzulla outcoached Spoelstra?

The adjustment that I liked is you saw them getting easy baskets off backdoor cuts, taking advantage of how MIA was overplaying to the 3 point line.  This is a simple adjustment, I learned the backdoor cut in probably 8th grade.  But this made a big difference.  Oh, and MIA shot only 32.1% from 3 and what do you know, we win easily.  The other thing that was actually positive in this game is that we won in spite of shooting only 29.7% from 3 ourselves.  We took 37 3PAs, that is still a lot (32 of which were open or wide open).  MIA had 20 (of 28) open or wide open 3PA.

I think it is difficult to compare Spoelstra to Mazzulla.  Spoelstra was an assistant in MIA for 11 years and has been the head coach for 16 years, all that time working under Pat Riley.  Is all this MIA success more about Pat Riley or Spoelstra?  Mazzulla was thrown into it right before the start of a season after the coach was fired.  He is way ahead of schedule.

Whether Mazzulla is ahead of schedule or not, he is the current head coach of a title contending NBA team.  With that comes certain expectations.  Spoelstra coached a couple of titles very early in his head coaching career.  At the time, he was criticized a lot, questioned a lot. 

If you set aside the hyperbole around Mazzulla, it is fair to debate wither the Celtics would be better or more likely to win a title, if they had hired a veteran coach.  That would not be overreacting.  I don't know the answer to that, it is a hypothetical.  It is possible, but I don't see the glaring flaws that other see.  The same things were being debated before Spoelstra won his first title in 2012.  Spoelstra was a "good enough" coach.  I think Mazzulla is too.

[Roy H.]

Is it really an overreaction... ?

This is the obvious question or the core of this debate.  It is an overreaction in my view when, after one bad loss, you see statements like, "Joe is braindead, he never make adjustments", "Spoelstra is totally out coaching him", and so on.  Joe made adjustments and the team won a big game, but do you see any comments that Mazzulla outcoached Spoelstra?

The adjustment that I liked is you saw them getting easy baskets off backdoor cuts, taking advantage of how MIA was overplaying to the 3 point line.  This is a simple adjustment, I learned the backdoor cut in probably 8th grade.  But this made a big difference.  Oh, and MIA shot only 32.1% from 3 and what do you know, we win easily.  The other thing that was actually positive in this game is that we won in spite of shooting only 29.7% from 3 ourselves.  We took 37 3PAs, that is still a lot (32 of which were open or wide open).  MIA had 20 (of 28) open or wide open 3PA.

I think it is difficult to compare Spoelstra to Mazzulla.  Spoelstra was an assistant in MIA for 11 years and has been the head coach for 16 years, all that time working under Pat Riley.  Is all this MIA success more about Pat Riley or Spoelstra?  Mazzulla was thrown into it right before the start of a season after the coach was fired.  He is way ahead of schedule.

Whether Mazzulla is ahead of schedule or not, he is the current head coach of a title contending NBA team.  With that comes certain expectations.  Spoelstra coached a couple of titles very early in his head coaching career.  At the time, he was criticized a lot, questioned a lot. 

If you set aside the hyperbole around Mazzulla, it is fair to debate wither the Celtics would be better or more likely to win a title, if they had hired a veteran coach.  That would not be overreacting.  I don't know the answer to that, it is a hypothetical.  It is possible, but I don't see the glaring flaws that other see.  The same things were being debated before Spoelstra won his first title in 2012.  Spoelstra was a "good enough" coach.  I think Mazzulla is too.

By your own observation, Joe didn't implement an obvious, easy adjustment (more cuts) in Game 2.  Another easy and obvious adjustment in Game 3 that we didn't see in Game 2 was closing out on shooters.

Why doesn't our coach makes adjustments in game?  If we had, we win Game 2 fairly easily.

[mobilija]

Team again was outscored without Tatum on floor. Tatum was +22 in 39 minutes and they were outscored by 2 in the 9 minutes he was on bench. That isn't that bad, but Brown was only +6 on the game. That is the problematic part. So in the 15 minutes Brown was on the bench, Boston outscored the Heat by 14 and only outscored them by 6 in the 33 minutes Brown was in the game.  We've gone full on back to how it has been for the last 5 or 6 years.  The team needs to play better with Brown and without Tatum or they aren't going to win the title.

I think your observations are ignoring important details in order to get the conclusion that fits your narrative. Brown ran with a bench unit that included Kornet and the double big line-up while Tatum was surrounded by a quicker line-up of all shooters including Hauser.

White was w Brown in those line-ups and Jrue with Tatum. White and Jrue’s +\- mirror Brown and Tatum. So, is Brown the problem or maybe White is the problem or the construction of the bench unit he was running with?

[ozgod]

Team again was outscored without Tatum on floor. Tatum was +22 in 39 minutes and they were outscored by 2 in the 9 minutes he was on bench. That isn't that bad, but Brown was only +6 on the game. That is the problematic part. So in the 15 minutes Brown was on the bench, Boston outscored the Heat by 14 and only outscored them by 6 in the 33 minutes Brown was in the game.  We've gone full on back to how it has been for the last 5 or 6 years.  The team needs to play better with Brown and without Tatum or they aren't going to win the title.

I think your observations are ignoring important details in order to get the conclusion that fits your narrative. Brown ran with a bench unit that included Kornet and the double big line-up while Tatum was surrounded by a quicker line-up of all shooters including Hauser.

White was w Brown in those line-ups and Jrue with Tatum. White and Jrue’s +\- mirror Brown and Tatum. So, is Brown the problem or maybe White is the problem or the construction of the bench unit he was running with?

Interesting point. I was curious so I ran a lineups analysis on NBA.com for Game 3 to look at all the lineups that Jaylen and Jayson were in. It is sorted by +/-. The highlights are as follows:

No highlight - Both Jays on the court
Yellow - Jaylen Only lineups
Blue - Jayson Only lineups

It's worth making note also of how many minutes each lineup was on the floor.

(click to enlarge)


EDIT: Fixed screenshot as it was incorrectly highlighted