When does optimism meet reality?

[Neurotic Guy]

I hate to log on with negativity, but this has got to be the most frustrating stretch of basketball I have seen since Curtis Rowe was in town.  How is it possible that this team can no longer play defense?  Really.  I mean KG isn't what he was, but has he become a defensive liability? I don't think so.  Paul has lost a step, but Perk should be at the top of his game and Rondo (all-defensive team Rondo?) is supposed to be a great defender.  Ray is no worse than he was 2 years ago (IMO).  OK -- they aren't the defensive powerhouse of 87-88, but, my lord, they can't stop a depeted Knicks team?  They can't turn it on to shut down this depleted Raptor team?

I am now not expecting a championship, but I have to believe this is a better team than this latest stretch.  I'll be pleased to see them win round 1 and be competetive in round 2.  I've resigned myself to mostly be rooting for Lakers losing.

[BballTim]

5. Absolute consistency of effort - the kind of effort that loses grudgingly, if at all. It's what we saw in 2008.

  It's what we saw in 2008, but that team set the bar way too high. It was the best team since the Bulls. No team since has had the effort, focus or concentration. No team now does.

Uh, no. Championship teams at every level have an uncommon dedication to effort and defense. Duke plays superior defense. The UConn women won a title last night because of consistent defensive effort.

This team's consistency of effort not only isn't championship quality; it's not remotely adequate. The defense alone, along with the related effort issues, is reason enough why this team won't survive long in the playoffs, let alone the multitude of other reasons. You need look no further than the total refusal of this club to rebound - against good teams, good players, bad teams and "Who's he?" Knicks. Not going to happen.

If I had to pick, perhaps we win one series. NO way right now we win two.

 Uh, yes. That team had a defense well beyond anything in the league right now. One of the top 3-4 defensive teams since the 70s. All you're saying is that, since a team wins the title, they automatically played "championship defense". Which is obviously right. But saying that the champion will have played the same type of defense as the 2008 Celts is nonsense.

  Oh, uh, the Celts are tied for the third best defense in the league. They've been near the top all year and have been #1 more than any other team. So I'd say that at least 2-3 teams in the conference finals won't have defenses good enough to survive long in the playoffs. How much of a trick is that?

[nickagneta]

Regarding giving up on a team my definition of that seems to be tremendously different than some.

Giving up on a team means becoming disgusted with it, deciding not to watch it anymore, deciding not to follow it on the internet and in the newspapers. It means becoming apathetic of its existence because they have so angered you with their play that you decide not to invest yourself in it any longer. It means just not caring about that team any longer.

That is sooooooooo far and away from what I am talking about in regards to realizing that your team doesn't have what it takes to win a championship. Just because someone goes from feeling their team is championship worthy to a team that can't win it doesn't mean that they gave up on the team. They don't suddenly divest themselves of the team. They simply have reassessed the outlook of the team for that season. But they still follow, love, care, and hope for the best for that team.

[Tai]

My optimism says the playoffs will start when I wake up tomorrow.

My reality says it won't start for 10 days.

I hate my reality.

[BballTim]

Regarding giving up on a team my definition of that seems to be tremendously different than some.

Giving up on a team means becoming disgusted with it, deciding not to watch it anymore, deciding not to follow it on the internet and in the newspapers. It means becoming apathetic of its existence because they have so angered you with their play that you decide not to invest yourself in it any longer. It means just not caring about that team any longer.

  I'd have said that by my definition you've clearly given up on the Celts, lost faith in them and have expectations closer to their floor than their ceiling. But by your definition, clearly you haven't.

  Personally I'd wait and see a few games and figure out what we're going to get from Rondo in the playoffs before I give up on them.

[nickagneta]

Regarding giving up on a team my definition of that seems to be tremendously different than some.

Giving up on a team means becoming disgusted with it, deciding not to watch it anymore, deciding not to follow it on the internet and in the newspapers. It means becoming apathetic of its existence because they have so angered you with their play that you decide not to invest yourself in it any longer. It means just not caring about that team any longer.

  I'd have said that by my definition you've clearly given up on the Celts, lost faith in them and have expectations closer to their floor than their ceiling. But by your definition, clearly you haven't.

  Personally I'd wait and see a few games and figure out what we're going to get from Rondo in the playoffs before I give up on them.

Well, my lowest expectations of them would be a loss in the first round. But I don't see that.

If they can get the third seed my ceiling of expectations is a loss in the ECFs as I think they match up really well against Orlando and can beat them in 7 games, regardless of home court.

But if they have to face Cleveland in the second round or in the ECFs, I think season over. Cleveland is just a better team this year than the Celtics, both overall in in their match ups head to head.

Now here's where hoping a team can still win it plays itself into the equation. I don't think they can win it all this year but I do definitely think there is a scenario where the Celtics can get Banner 18 this year. That scenario includes Cleveland getting upset by someone before the Celtics play them and the Celtics having to face either Oklahoma City, Phoenix or Portland in the Finals.

Slim, I know. But I think that would have to be the scenario that would get banner 18.

So I hope and cheer and follow and love my Celtics. Expecting less but hoping for more.

[jambr380]

Regarding giving up on a team my definition of that seems to be tremendously different than some.

Giving up on a team means becoming disgusted with it, deciding not to watch it anymore, deciding not to follow it on the internet and in the newspapers. It means becoming apathetic of its existence because they have so angered you with their play that you decide not to invest yourself in it any longer. It means just not caring about that team any longer.

  I'd have said that by my definition you've clearly given up on the Celts, lost faith in them and have expectations closer to their floor than their ceiling. But by your definition, clearly you haven't.

  Personally I'd wait and see a few games and figure out what we're going to get from Rondo in the playoffs before I give up on them.

Well, my lowest expectations of them would be a loss in the first round. But I don't see that.

If they can get the third seed my ceiling of expectations is a loss in the ECFs as I think they match up really well against Orlando and can beat them in 7 games, regardless of home court.

But if they have to face Cleveland in the second round or in the ECFs, I think season over. Cleveland is just a better team this year than the Celtics, both overall in in their match ups head to head.

Now here's where hoping a team can still win it plays itself into the equation. I don't think they can win it all this year but I do definitely think there is a scenario where the Celtics can get Banner 18 this year. That scenario includes Cleveland getting upset by someone before the Celtics play them and the Celtics having to face either Oklahoma City, Phoenix or Portland in the Finals.

Slim, I know. But I think that would have to be the scenario that would get banner 18.

So I hope and cheer and follow and love my Celtics. Expecting less but hoping for more.

The whole thing is really a bummer, though. I remember 2 years ago we were all looking for reasons they possibly couldn't win the championship, when this year we are desperately looking for reasons they could. If everything came together, I guess, sure, they have the talent, but the drive just isn't there- not like it was, and I don't know that it can come back just like that. I have to imagine a 'championship-less' Lebron has a lot more drive than our aging squad...basically, what I am saying is, I totally get what you are saying Nick. I love and root for the Celtics at all costs, but am hardly confident they are going to win it all this year (but still hope).

[GreenFaith1819]

I haven't read entire thread, so I apologize ahead of time for potentially stealing someone else's thunder, but to answer the thread -

Once/If The Boston Celtics are defeated in a Seven-Game series. That's when optimism meets reality for me.

Not over til it's over - that's how I see it. No matter how up and downn they've been this season.

This team is 3 - 3 against LA and CLE. I'll take that.

[themanthemyththelegend]

Sorry GreenFaith, I haven't figured out how to re: someone's comment directly but this is directed to your post...

I understand the whole "it's not over until it's over" thought process but I don't understand or subscribe to the whole "selective" explanations that some fans use. Yes, they're 2-2 against the Cavs & 1-1 against the Lakers. But what does that mean when they're also 0-4 against the Hawks & 1-3 against the Magic? In reality the season record with the Lakersisn't even really relevant because you're not even going to see them unless the C's get to the Finals. You could just as well use the C's record against the Mavericks because they're in 2nd place in the West. It would seem to me that just putting the emphasis on what looks good in a statement is distracting to the reality of the season and the team's fallability as a whole.

Sometimes I feel like the whole "never say die" attitude and "don't try to get back on the bandwagon because we REAL FANS don't want you" smacks more of trying to show how much better of a "fan" people are trying to be on this blogsite and less their own real grasp and understanding of the reality of the situation and what this team really isn't going to do in this season's playoffs.

No disrespect meant.

[Bahku]

Optimism meets reality when you choose to let it, no sooner, no later. Optimism is a conscious choice, and the point to which you carry it is completely up to you. I don't believe optimism is something that just happens, or something that we're born with to a certain limit, or that there's some quantifiable level to which it's taken or denied.

Yes, some people may be more predisposed to optimism than others, but the point at which you STOP being optimistic about something, is the point when you consciously decide to not be optimistic about it. Is there enough evidence to support no longer being optimistic about the Celtics? Absolutely, but because I choose to continue to be optimistic does NOT make me a "blind" optimist, because that requires no proof or sensibility to support it.

But I am optimistic because I believe in, and still see enough good in, this team to support being optimistic about it, and despite the negative that supports a pessimistic view, there is just as much positive to support an optimistic view. As I said, optimism meets reality when we as individuals decide it meets reality, no sooner, no later.

Just because someone else has decided that they don't have enough to hold onto to justify being optimistic, and that they have reached their point of "reality meeting optimism" or reality outweighing optimism, does NOT make it so for everyone else. I still see enough good things about this team to remain being optimistic, but only because that's MY view and my choice ... and that's as much reality as reality itself.

Exactly, it's an individual thing and it doesn't make anyone better or smarter or more devoted to be one way or the other. It just makes us different individuals, different fans with different ways of seeing things.

Now with this team, Bahku and others will feel optimistic until the very end, the last buzzer. But if disaster were to strike next year and come late March this team is 22-45 come mid-March those same people are going to still be optimistic about the Celtics chances next season until the very last buzzer. My guess is that somewhere well before the last game of the season the optimism will have met the reality of the situation, that that team wasn't going to win it all.

For different teams it comes at different times, just like for different people it comes at different times. It's all individual and it doesn't make you good or bad or devoted or not devoted. It just makes you different and individual.

TP for seeing that my friend.

Back atcha ... it's really mostly semantics, because pessimism and optimism are both part of reality, and while I agree with Mike-Dub that this is a great discussion, I don't agree (with him) that this thread depressing, not at all ... but that's probably because I'm such an optimist.

[GreenFaith1819]

Sorry GreenFaith, I haven't figured out how to re: someone's comment directly but this is directed to your post...

I understand the whole "it's not over until it's over" thought process but I don't understand or subscribe to the whole "selective" explanations that some fans use. Yes, they're 2-2 against the Cavs & 1-1 against the Lakers. But what does that mean when they're also 0-4 against the Hawks & 1-3 against the Magic? In reality the season record with the Lakersisn't even really relevant because you're not even going to see them unless the C's get to the Finals. You could just as well use the C's record against the Mavericks because they're in 2nd place in the West. It would seem to me that just putting the emphasis on what looks good in a statement is distracting to the reality of the season and the team's fallability as a whole.

Sometimes I feel like the whole "never say die" attitude and "don't try to get back on the bandwagon because we REAL FANS don't want you" smacks more of trying to show how much better of a "fan" people are trying to be on this blogsite and less their own real grasp and understanding of the reality of the situation and what this team really isn't going to do in this season's playoffs.

No disrespect meant.

So...what you are trying to say is that you don't believe this team is going to do well in the playoffs? Is that your thought?

[nickagneta]

Sorry GreenFaith, I haven't figured out how to re: someone's comment directly but this is directed to your post...

I understand the whole "it's not over until it's over" thought process but I don't understand or subscribe to the whole "selective" explanations that some fans use. Yes, they're 2-2 against the Cavs & 1-1 against the Lakers. But what does that mean when they're also 0-4 against the Hawks & 1-3 against the Magic? In reality the season record with the Lakersisn't even really relevant because you're not even going to see them unless the C's get to the Finals. You could just as well use the C's record against the Mavericks because they're in 2nd place in the West. It would seem to me that just putting the emphasis on what looks good in a statement is distracting to the reality of the season and the team's fallability as a whole.

Sometimes I feel like the whole "never say die" attitude and "don't try to get back on the bandwagon because we REAL FANS don't want you" smacks more of trying to show how much better of a "fan" people are trying to be on this blogsite and less their own real grasp and understanding of the reality of the situation and what this team really isn't going to do in this season's playoffs.

No disrespect meant.

So...what you are trying to say is that you don't believe this team is going to do well in the playoffs? Is that your thought?

I sure hope so. I would hate to think he was saying something....disrespectful.

[GreenFaith1819]

Sorry GreenFaith, I haven't figured out how to re: someone's comment directly but this is directed to your post...

I understand the whole "it's not over until it's over" thought process but I don't understand or subscribe to the whole "selective" explanations that some fans use. Yes, they're 2-2 against the Cavs & 1-1 against the Lakers. But what does that mean when they're also 0-4 against the Hawks & 1-3 against the Magic? In reality the season record with the Lakersisn't even really relevant because you're not even going to see them unless the C's get to the Finals. You could just as well use the C's record against the Mavericks because they're in 2nd place in the West. It would seem to me that just putting the emphasis on what looks good in a statement is distracting to the reality of the season and the team's fallability as a whole.

Sometimes I feel like the whole "never say die" attitude and "don't try to get back on the bandwagon because we REAL FANS don't want you" smacks more of trying to show how much better of a "fan" people are trying to be on this blogsite and less their own real grasp and understanding of the reality of the situation and what this team really isn't going to do in this season's playoffs.

No disrespect meant.

No disrespect taken, my friend. I welcome the debate. This thread is mild compared to some I've seen on here .

I base a lot of my hopes for this season on what the Great NickAgneta posted here a couple of months ago. He brought up the issue of the 1968-69 Boston Celtics, and how that team dragged through the regular season, dragged through the playoffs, but still won the title that year.

That team was very much injured, too.

This is why I cannot feel too sorry for Andrew Bogut - I love the man as a player, but why in the world is Milwaukee getting all this love for their injuries when Boston got no love all yr? But that's a story for another thread I guess. Most of the NBA was ready to put The Celtics on ths shelf - put us away - for good, during our injury-plagued portion of the yr.

Well, call me an Old-head, but I just remember too many cases of our Celtics coming through in the end - everyone giving up on them, etc. And then out of no where they come through.

I do not judge folks here who may think that Boston has nothing left - you are free to think as you wish. This is a Community here.

But as for me, I want to see how this season/playoffs ends before I put Boston on the shelf.

[Bahku]

Sorry GreenFaith, I haven't figured out how to re: someone's comment directly but this is directed to your post...

I understand the whole "it's not over until it's over" thought process but I don't understand or subscribe to the whole "selective" explanations that some fans use. Yes, they're 2-2 against the Cavs & 1-1 against the Lakers. But what does that mean when they're also 0-4 against the Hawks & 1-3 against the Magic? In reality the season record with the Lakersisn't even really relevant because you're not even going to see them unless the C's get to the Finals. You could just as well use the C's record against the Mavericks because they're in 2nd place in the West. It would seem to me that just putting the emphasis on what looks good in a statement is distracting to the reality of the season and the team's fallability as a whole.

Sometimes I feel like the whole "never say die" attitude and "don't try to get back on the bandwagon because we REAL FANS don't want you" smacks more of trying to show how much better of a "fan" people are trying to be on this blogsite and less their own real grasp and understanding of the reality of the situation and what this team really isn't going to do in this season's playoffs.

No disrespect meant.

So...what you are trying to say is that you don't believe this team is going to do well in the playoffs? Is that your thought?

The thing that amazes me is that some people are really bothered by the fact that others are so optimistic ... I mean, I give others the latitude to feel and express their pessimism or "realism", (which I think is a misnomer, because optimism is just as "real"), so why is it such a problem for people to accept the fact that I still believe, (and see enough positive things to support), that this team can get deep into the playoffs?

We, as optimists, are only granted a certain amount of latitude, and then others decide we've reached a point where anyone who truly still believes must either have some alterior motive, or are just plain lunatics. I just don't understand why it's so difficult for pessimists to allow us the room to feel the way we want ... I mean, we're doing it because we want to "prove how much better fans we are"?!? Come on, man, give us a little more credit than that, OK?

We're not stupid, and we know the game of basketball, and SOME of us still see enough positive things in this team to be optimistic about it, so please, please don't tell us we can't, or that we have some alterior motive ... we wouldn't think of denying you the same latitude. This team still has the tools and emotion to play playoff-level basketball and win, and the only reason I'm saying that is because I truly BELIEVE it.

[themanthemyththelegend]

No. Unfortunately I don't think this team is going to make much noise in the playoffs. While yes, they can get up for the occasional "big game" (i.e. Lakers, Cavs), this team has also shown plenty of times since Christmas that they're more than willing to roll over for lesser teams and haven't consistently been able to beat any of the top 3 other teams in the East. I tend to look more at actual fact and less on what "might" happen when this team throws the switch come playoff time.

And by the way to nickagneta, I didn't mean any disrespect. I was just giving my opinion on an open blogpost. It's always nice when people who have been here a while make the newbies feel welcome.