When does optimism meet reality?

[Mr October]

But I am really disappointed in the effort this team has given this year. Last year this team was as equally beat up as this year's team. It could be argued that it was also less talented than this team. But even during their losing streak after Christmas Day in 2008, they never gave little to no effort in games. They never just decided not to show up. And hurt and missing key personnel and playing scrubs, they took Orlando to 7 games and played honorably and I was proud of them.

As of right now, I'm not sure I can say that of this team, and THAT is disappointing to me, not the fact that they won't win it all.

TP. well put. Those are my thoughts on this season and last as well.

No matter how the story ends in the playoffs, I am disappointed by the patchy effort of this year's team. All individuals on this team are accountable, regardless of injuries. When guys were too injured, Doc should have sat them down - hopefully he has learned a lesson for next year.

I hope this group of players shows their true colors and plays like warriors in the playoffs. Win or loose, I want to at least be proud of how they play in the playoffs.

[MBunge]

I see age as being a huge factor.  

SNIP

  Age happens.

It's not age.  It just isn't.  People need to stop saying it.  People need to stop thinking it.  When great teams get old, they still win at home.  That has been the iron rule of the NBA since forever.  In Bird's final season, Boston went 34 and 7 at home.  34 and 7!

IT IS NOT AGE

Mike

[EJPLAYA]

On another note, there are a lot of people on here saying they don't hit this point until the final buzzer sounds eliminating us. That just isn't true. You may not admit on this site or to your friends you've given up, but you will have given up hope long before that if you haven't already. There is nothing wrong with admitting that we just aren't healthy enough as a team to win the title this year. That's just reality.

TP.

I've been wanting to say this and just didn't want to for fear of the thread going in a direction of us versus them realists vs optimists, but I kind of feel the same way. Though in defense of that, I have had year's where I really didn't give up hope until the very end. The 2003 and 2008 Red Sox were like that for me.

To be honest, I don't agree.

The main reason is that I have no clue *why* we are under-performing the way we are. If it really is all effort, or whatever, and they will be able to switch on in the playoffs, hey, that's fine with me!

Honestly. With this team, I have no idea what might happen. So that's why I say I hope.

And I'll do that until we're out of it.

I don't really think we are all disagreeing here. What nick is saying that I agree with completely is that you really aren't being completely truthful that you won't give up until we are out of it. If we are down 3-0 and are routed each game in the second round and are down 25 pts at the half in game 4, don't tell us that you are still truthfully thinking we can win the whole thing. It just isn't the case.

I'm not saying that I shouldn't root for them still and hope that a miracle occurs and we suddenly get it together. I am saying that if they haven't gotten it together now, then the likelyhood is very very small. I've accepted the fact that this won't be #18. I'd love to be wrong.

[BballTim]

On another note, there are a lot of people on here saying they don't hit this point until the final buzzer sounds eliminating us. That just isn't true. You may not admit on this site or to your friends you've given up, but you will have given up hope long before that if you haven't already. There is nothing wrong with admitting that we just aren't healthy enough as a team to win the title this year. That's just reality.

TP.

I've been wanting to say this and just didn't want to for fear of the thread going in a direction of us versus them realists vs optimists, but I kind of feel the same way. Though in defense of that, I have had year's where I really didn't give up hope until the very end. The 2003 and 2008 Red Sox were like that for me.

  Funny, I was expecting it to go into the more typical "realist vs pessimist" type of thread. If Perk's knee makes a comeback then we could very well be healthy enough to win, unlike the state of the team in January and February.

[Kiorrik]

On another note, there are a lot of people on here saying they don't hit this point until the final buzzer sounds eliminating us. That just isn't true. You may not admit on this site or to your friends you've given up, but you will have given up hope long before that if you haven't already. There is nothing wrong with admitting that we just aren't healthy enough as a team to win the title this year. That's just reality.

TP.

I've been wanting to say this and just didn't want to for fear of the thread going in a direction of us versus them realists vs optimists, but I kind of feel the same way. Though in defense of that, I have had year's where I really didn't give up hope until the very end. The 2003 and 2008 Red Sox were like that for me.

To be honest, I don't agree.

The main reason is that I have no clue *why* we are under-performing the way we are. If it really is all effort, or whatever, and they will be able to switch on in the playoffs, hey, that's fine with me!

Honestly. With this team, I have no idea what might happen. So that's why I say I hope.

And I'll do that until we're out of it.

I don't really think we are all disagreeing here. What nick is saying that I agree with completely is that you really aren't being completely truthful that you won't give up until we are out of it. If we are down 3-0 and are routed each game in the second round and are down 25 pts at the half in game 4, don't tell us that you are still truthfully thinking we can win the whole thing. It just isn't the case.

I'm not saying that I shouldn't root for them still and hope that a miracle occurs and we suddenly get it together. I am saying that if they haven't gotten it together now, then the likelyhood is very very small. I've accepted the fact that this won't be #18. I'd love to be wrong.

...

Well doh. With a few minutes left in the game and 25 points behind, yeh, I'll give up. Doh.

Well then, I'll fall back to what I said before; the playoffs. I want to see at least 3 games before I can call us beaten. If one of them is a win, I won't count us out.

[Mr October]

I see age as being a huge factor.  

SNIP

  Age happens.

It's not age.  It just isn't.  People need to stop saying it.  People need to stop thinking it.  When great teams gets old, they still win at home.  That has been the iron rule of the NBA since forever.  In Bird's final season, Boston went 34 and 7 at home.  34 and 7!

IT IS NOT AGE

Mike

I disagree.
As you get older, it is harder to recover from injuries.
As you get older those legs get tired in the second half of games.
As you get older, you realize that you have to save something for the playoffs or else you'll be gassed like Pierce last year.
As you get older, you play the game more gingerly in order to avoid the injuries that are so hard to recover from.

As for not taking care of business at home, this group of players also suffers from knowing what they are capable of in the playoffs, and constantly having let downs. They don't feel they have the need to prove themselves until the playoffs. They don't feel they need to prove they can dominate at home. The urgency isn't there.

What did they feel the need to do? Get a win against LA, Cleveland and Orlando, and have a solid showing on the road. They don't give much of a crap about the rest of the regular season.

Compound this lack of focus/effort/urgency with the injuries and the age and there you have an inconsistent team.

Anyway, age is without a doubt one of the factors.

[mgent]

When any sports season starts, being a fan means hoping and dreaming that your team will win it all. Every new season brings that chance that every little thing could go right and the team could do this and that rookie could become this and that player could break out and all the stars will align and a championship will be celebrated at the end of the season. Hope is there and optimism abounds and cheering your team on becomes a joy .

But with the exception of championship years there always comes that point where optimism meets reality. The point where you realize that your team just isn't good enough to win the championship. For some fans that time comes in spring training or training camp or the pre-season. Some teams just aren't good enough from the get go. For others it comes early in the season. Still others that moment doesn't arrive until much later in the season, like maybe the playoffs. And yet, for others, the hopeless hopeful, that moment doesn't come until the final whistle, horn or out of the season.

But that moment always comes unless your team wins it all. So, regarding this Celtics team, has that moment come for you? If so when did it come for you? And for those where this moment hasn't arrived, when does it usually arrive for you?

For me, in 2007-08, it never arrived. I thought that team would win it all until the end and they did. It was the first time I felt like that about a Celtics team since the late 80's. Last year, it didn't arrive until the 4th quarter of game seven versus Orlando. Sure, in retrospect, I guess I should have known better seeing that KG was injured and that Leon was then injured. But I couldn't help myself. Until Orlando pulled away in the fourth in that game seven, I just was positive that team could win it all.

But this year, it's a different story. That moment arrived on February 10th, the day before the All-Star break. After watching Darren Collison do a number on the Celtics and watch the Hornets blitz the Celtics in the second half of that game, optimism met reality for me and I knew they couldn't win it all this year. That game is the perfect example of this Celtic season. Strong start, no excellent start. Horrible middle and weak ending with serious lack of effort and watching inferior players and teams do a number on them while this Celtics team whines to the refs and wonders how it all happened.

Now, just because your optimism has met your reality doesn't mean that you are any more or less of a fan or that you can't be proven wrong. As any Red Sox fan knows, your optimism can meet your reality and you can still win the championship. Need I say anything more than Games 4,5,6,and 7 of the 2004 ALCS. I think my optimism met my reality so much during those games that they became married.

And on the other side of the coin, just because your optimism doesn't meet your reality until that final buzzer or horn or whatever, it doesn't mean that you are any more or less of a fan. Your are the eternal optimist believing in something until the very end and that's okay, too. This world could use more people like you.

But in the end, unless your team wins it all, and let's face it, even with the success of the Celtics as a franchise, unless you are in your 60's or older, your optimism meets your reality way more often than that championship season. So tell me, do you really need for that final buzzer to sound or does it creep in earlier, even if it is a quarter or half or game or half a season earlier?

You gave up on your team half way through the season?

[jdpapa3]

To be honest, I don't agree.

The main reason is that I have no clue *why* we are under-performing the way we are. If it really is all effort, or whatever, and they will be able to switch on in the playoffs, hey, that's fine with me!

Honestly. With this team, I have no idea what might happen. So that's why I say I hope.

And I'll do that until we're out of it.

Same way I feel. I was ticked off to high heaven last night, but the effort clearly wasn't there. It's a weird position to be in as a fan. We have older stars that do, in fact, need to conserve for the bigger games so I'd trade in these stinkers for a full tank of playoff gas. Question is, does that exist? I have no way of knowing.

[MBunge]

I disagree.
As you get older, it is harder to recover from injuries.
As you get older those legs get tired in the second half of games.
As you get older, you realize that you have to save something for the playoffs or else you'll be gassed like Pierce last year.
As you get older, you play the game more gingerly in order to avoid the injuries that are so hard to recover from.

As you get older, you don't get younger on the road.  Every problem you just listed should be as bad or worse during road trips, yet Boston joins the 76ers as the only teams IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE to have more losses at home than on the road.  Boston has a better road record than the frickin' Lakers!

IT'S NOT AGE

Mike

[Bahku]

Optimism meets reality when you choose to let it, no sooner, no later. Optimism is a conscious choice, and the point to which you carry it is completely up to you. I don't believe optimism is something that just happens, or something that we're born with to a certain limit, or that there's some quantifiable level to which it's taken or denied.

Yes, some people may be more predisposed to optimism than others, but the point at which you STOP being optimistic about something, is the point when you consciously decide to not be optimistic about it. Is there enough evidence to support no longer being optimistic about the Celtics? Absolutely, but because I choose to continue to be optimistic does NOT make me a "blind" optimist, because that requires no proof or sensibility to support it.

But I am optimistic because I believe in, and still see enough good in, this team to support being optimistic about it, and despite the negative that supports a pessimistic view, there is just as much positive to support an optimistic view. As I said, optimism meets reality when we as individuals decide it meets reality, no sooner, no later.

Just because someone else has decided that they don't have enough to hold onto to justify being optimistic, and that they have reached their point of "reality meeting optimism" or reality outweighing optimism, does NOT make it so for everyone else. I still see enough good things about this team to remain being optimistic, but only because that's MY view and my choice ... and that's as much reality as reality itself.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

On another note, there are a lot of people on here saying they don't hit this point until the final buzzer sounds eliminating us. That just isn't true. You may not admit on this site or to your friends you've given up, but you will have given up hope long before that if you haven't already. There is nothing wrong with admitting that we just aren't healthy enough as a team to win the title this year. That's just reality.

TP.

I've been wanting to say this and just didn't want to for fear of the thread going in a direction of us versus them realists vs optimists, but I kind of feel the same way. Though in defense of that, I have had year's where I really didn't give up hope until the very end. The 2003 and 2008 Red Sox were like that for me.

To be honest, I don't agree.

The main reason is that I have no clue *why* we are under-performing the way we are. If it really is all effort, or whatever, and they will be able to switch on in the playoffs, hey, that's fine with me!

Honestly. With this team, I have no idea what might happen. So that's why I say I hope.

And I'll do that until we're out of it.

I don't really think we are all disagreeing here. What nick is saying that I agree with completely is that you really aren't being completely truthful that you won't give up until we are out of it. If we are down 3-0 and are routed each game in the second round and are down 25 pts at the half in game 4, don't tell us that you are still truthfully thinking we can win the whole thing. It just isn't the case.

I'm not saying that I shouldn't root for them still and hope that a miracle occurs and we suddenly get it together. I am saying that if they haven't gotten it together now, then the likelyhood is very very small. I've accepted the fact that this won't be #18. I'd love to be wrong.

Like I said before, optimism is a state of mind regarding future events.  As the present encroaches on those events, optimism or pessimism erodes in favor of reality and probabilities.  When you think up an example where even the most optimistic of us might start to get pessimistic, you're exploring the progression from the future to the present, and how it changes expectation, and not outing people for being untruthful. 

Also, there's no such thing as a 'realist.'  Either you have positive or negative expectations of the future, but it's impossible to perfectly occupy the middle ground (the supposed 'reality' to which 'realists' set their expectations) since it's impossible to know the future.  People who call themselves 'realists' are just arrogant optimists/pessimists.

[Mr October]

I disagree.
As you get older, it is harder to recover from injuries.
As you get older those legs get tired in the second half of games.
As you get older, you realize that you have to save something for the playoffs or else you'll be gassed like Pierce last year.
As you get older, you play the game more gingerly in order to avoid the injuries that are so hard to recover from.

As you get older, you don't get younger on the road.  Every problem you just listed should be as bad or worse during road trips, yet Boston joins the 76ers as the only teams IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE to have more losses at home than on the road.  Boston has a better road record than the frickin' Lakers!

IT'S NOT AGE

Mike

How about how long it takes for KG and Pierce to recover from injuries, or the number of injury bugs KG and Pierce have had?

Does age have anything to do with that?

And do those nagging injuries have anything to do with the number of losses?

The Celtics sure looked old in their road loss last night.

[Roy Hobbs]

On another note, there are a lot of people on here saying they don't hit this point until the final buzzer sounds eliminating us. That just isn't true. You may not admit on this site or to your friends you've given up, but you will have given up hope long before that if you haven't already. There is nothing wrong with admitting that we just aren't healthy enough as a team to win the title this year. That's just reality.

Is it reality, though?  Why are you so sure?  I agree that it's *likely* that this team isn't going to win based upon its play recently.  However, the 1969 team was in the exact same predicament.  48 wins, 4th in the East, finished the season by going 17-19 in their last 36 games.  I'm sure that back then, fans were saying how unrealistic the optimists were, too, and yet they won.

I just think it's very presumptuous to suggest that the optimists are faking it.  Some people really do believe "It's not over until it's over", and you'd think that in this town -- with the 1969 Celts and 2004 Red Sox as shining examples -- that people wouldn't be quite so quick to judge the optimism of others.

If people want to give up on the team, it's understandable.  If people want to be stubbornly optimistic, that's all good, too.

[MBunge]

How about how long it takes for KG and Pierce to recover from injuries, or the number of injury bugs KG and Pierce have had?

Does age have anything to do with that?

And do those nagging injuries have anything to do with the number of losses?

The Celtics sure looked old in their road loss last night.

Again, in Bird's final season where he only played about 45 games due to injury...Boston was still 34-7 at home.

The problem with this team isn't that it might have looked old on the road in the 77th game of the season.

Mike

[Mencius]

Several months ago for me, when it was clear this team has NO CHANCE to win a championship.  Danny should have jump started the rebuild by trading Ray.