Author Topic: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players  (Read 17010 times)

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Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2010, 09:04:00 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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So by stating something incorrectly (or just making stuff up), you can prove/support anything?

Umm, okay you win that argument...

What part is made up? I know the stats posted by the OP are me are different. Once again, I was simply stating that there is a stat for every argument. I wasn't trying to win any argument by making up stuff.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 09:12:17 PM by barefacedmonk »
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Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2010, 09:13:32 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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So by stating something incorrectly (or just making stuff up), you can prove/support anything?

Umm, okay you win that argument...

What part is made up?
This part:

According to the first post, Paul Pierce is number 2 on the list of most fouls drawn...

That's not what the first post said:

If I were to ask which of the following 6 players draws the most fouls per field goal attempt
Paul Pierce is number 2 when it comes to the rate of drawing fouls when shooting. Not number two at getting FTs.

You misstated what the statistic was, and then used your misstatement to support your point. Basically you lied, omitted, made something up, whatever you want to call it; to attack "stats".

You can misstate, or selectively quote, to do lots of funny things. Similar to how a movie can get panned in a review and they'll take a two or three word quote from the review.

Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2010, 09:17:31 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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So by stating something incorrectly (or just making stuff up), you can prove/support anything?

Umm, okay you win that argument...

What part is made up?
This part:

According to the first post, Paul Pierce is number 2 on the list of most fouls drawn...

That's not what the first post said:

If I were to ask which of the following 6 players draws the most fouls per field goal attempt
Paul Pierce is number 2 when it comes to the rate of drawing fouls when shooting. Not number two at getting FTs.

You misstated what the statistic was, and then used your misstatement to support your point. Basically you lied, omitted, made something up, whatever you want to call it; to attack "stats".

You can misstate, or selectively quote, to do lots of funny things. Similar to how a movie can get panned in a review and they'll take a two or three word quote from the review.

I mis-interpreted the highlighted part...and it was a mistake. Stop telling me that I "lied"....I wasn't trying to attack any stats...IMO, stats don't tell the whole story.

EDIT: I have to add this...you know, I've no problem with you telling me that my logic is flawed or that I'm wrong...but just because you are a MOD does not mean you can call me liar. Once again, I mis-interpreted the highlighted statement..it was a mistake. I wasn't trying to "attack" any stats...I think they are misleading..its my opinion and I'm entitled to it.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 09:32:40 PM by barefacedmonk »
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Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2010, 09:37:10 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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So by stating something incorrectly (or just making stuff up), you can prove/support anything?

Umm, okay you win that argument...

What part is made up?


I'd say the part that's made up is that all numbers from any sources have equal statistical validity; that "statistics" can be used to prove any point.


I think we can safely assume that the point you want to make is that Lebron does not get enough fouls called on him on defense (i've seen it in several threads today). So you throw out personal fouls per game. But that in a vacuum tells us almost nothing. In a vacuum, that stat is much like coaches looking at free throw totals and crying foul if there's a huge difference. I mean, there's no rule that two teams have to shoot the same number of free throws, sometimes one team fouls a lot more than the other.

So what's going on here is either a. Lebron is called differently than anyone else, or b. Lebron plays differently than anyone else. Those are the two options.

So on offense, you might suspect if A. were true, Lebron would have a lot of free throws: it's the most direct way a conspiracy of referees could give a player points. And, it seems it's true that he shoots a lot of free throws, both in absolute terms and per shot attempt. However, does that mean he is called differently or he plays differently? As the OP pointed out (and I chipped in), our very own Paul Pierce has a similar amount of free throws per shot attempt, just shoots a lot less. Then there's a guy like maggette, who has almost no marketing charisma, who is always among the league leaders in this category. Then you have a guy like Kobe, a marketer's dream, who is often near the top as well (and you'd assume a conspiracy amongst referees is there to help the marketing darlings, not just Lebron), but has steadily regressed in his free throw attempts per shot attempt. So which do we conclude: A. there's a conspiracy to gift points to the marquee players of the league, which includes Maggette, Pierce, Lebron, Melo, Wade, Durant, and Kobe, but with the conspiracy being told not to help out kobe as much, or B. That this stat reflects the style of play; that maggette very rarely shoots jump shots and is almost always looking to score by athletically driving into traffic and forcing the issue, and that this is how Melo, Pierce, and Lebron play too, and that this is how Kobe used to play but has gradually stopped attacking so much and relies more on shooting in recent years (less likely to draw a foul and a subjective observation shared by many NBA observers). Frankly, I think all it takes is to watch a few non-celtics games to conclude that B is much more plausible.

Really, the best thing to do would be to watch several games, and keep track of all the missed calls in every direction and see what percentage of good, bad, or debateable calls (and no-calls) a player gets. Someone like Lebron has the ball in his hands all the time and is always attacking. He's going to get some calls he doesn't deserve. But I saw at least 5 plays in the fourth quarter of Sunday's game where I was waiting (with fear) for a foul to be called on Boston's D, but wasn't...but probably should have been. Until you acknowledge how many NON-calls there are (both ways) and figure out who (if anyone) benefits most from bad calls and non-calls, I think it's much more likely that there's a lot of referee error that evens out by the end of a game. In other words, it's much more likely that Lebron is the most gifted athlete in the NBA than to assume that there's some corrupt system that wants him to be good that also wants Maggette to be better and is pushing kobe down.


But your point is about defense. Maybe the referee conspiracy knows that favoring Lebron's offense would be too noticeable, but that they can subtly favor Lebron by not calling fouls on him so he doesn't need to worry about foul trouble. But again, if there were such a conspiracy, would it be restricted to Lebron? If so, why? And don't you think if there was a double secret memo to never let Lebron foul out, there'd be some games where he was out of control and got to 5 fouls, but then mysteriously stayed there? Doesn't the fact he is consistently avoiding foul trouble mean something? Maybe the (painful) fact is that he just doesn't gamble 1-on-1 and pick up cheap fouls and is athletic (and big) enough to make a huge defensive impact without fouling.

But again, we'd have to watch game tapes. And we'd have to watch each individual player, and count how many fouls COULD be called against them, how many SHOULD be called against them, and how many ARE called against them. Then we'd have to see if Lebron's foul call ratio is out of wack.

I mean, I watch the C's. I see Perk get called for offensive screens, and fouls on rebound and rotations. They could almost call a foul on nearly EVERY play in which he is involved. But they don't. So say Perk commits 16 fouls (not unrealistic, really) in a game, but is only whistled for 4. that means refs are calling 25% of "flow of the play" fouls (they have to call the really obvious ones). Maybe Lebron is more athletic and smarter than Perk (a real leap, I know), and only commits 8 fouls per game, and is whistled for two. That's consistent.

In other words, for Lebron to foul out, if refs were making those calls for everyone on the floor, a lot of other people would foul out first and we'd be just as unhappy.





Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2010, 09:42:42 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I mis-interpreted the highlighted part...and it was a mistake. Stop telling me that I "lied"....I wasn't trying to attack any stats...IMO, stats don't tell the whole story.
I'm fine with you holding this opinion.

I misinterpreted this post:
I noticed that when I looked up the stats. All I was trying to say is that you can always find some stat to prove your point.
To mean that you noticed it when you looked up the stat and posted it as an example of how easy it is to twist or cherry-pick stats to any argument. Hence since it is easy to lie with false statistics they shouldn't be relied on.

That wasn't the case, so I apologize for that. I responded to your post before the edit made it clear what you meant.

You still haven't presented any argument against "stats" other than your opinion though, I'm not sure why you think "stats don't mean a lot". They certainly don't tell you everything about basketball, but they tell you a ton about the game if you know where to look.

Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2010, 09:48:20 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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So by stating something incorrectly (or just making stuff up), you can prove/support anything?

Umm, okay you win that argument...

What part is made up?


I'd say the part that's made up is that all numbers from any sources have equal statistical validity; that "statistics" can be used to prove any point.


Lebron does not get enough fouls called on him on defense (i've seen it in several threads today).

So what's going on here is either a. Lebron is called differently than anyone else.

Yes, I believe you can always intepret statistics in the way you want to see it...IMO, stats don't tell the whole story....and yes, there is different set of rules when it comes to LBJ...you don't see it that way, I do...we can agree to disagree here.
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Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2010, 10:01:21 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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You still haven't presented any argument against "stats" other than your opinion though, I'm not sure why you think "stats don't mean a lot". They certainly don't tell you everything about basketball, but they tell you a ton about the game if you know where to look.

Okay, let me clarify...I'm not against stats in general...its the NBA stats that I'm against. I would be willing to accept the stats without any problem if the NBA refs. use the same rulebook for every player. According to the stats, LeBron commits only 1.6 fouls per game...and anyone who watches LeBron play knows that its not true...he gets away with a lot of offensive and defensive fouls. Sheed is called for a tech for yelling "and 1" where as LBJ hardly gets a tech called on him...and we all know how he interacts with the refs. NBA stats don't show that.

EDIT: I really can't explain it any better than that....English is not my first language (I couldn't even speak the language 7 yrs back) and I'm not very good with expressing my thoughts/opinions. :)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 10:07:18 PM by barefacedmonk »
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Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2010, 10:10:00 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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So by stating something incorrectly (or just making stuff up), you can prove/support anything?

Umm, okay you win that argument...

What part is made up?


I'd say the part that's made up is that all numbers from any sources have equal statistical validity; that "statistics" can be used to prove any point.


Lebron does not get enough fouls called on him on defense (i've seen it in several threads today).

So what's going on here is either a. Lebron is called differently than anyone else.

Yes, I believe you can always intepret statistics in the way you want to see it...IMO, stats don't tell the whole story....and yes, there is different set of rules when it comes to LBJ...you don't see it that way, I do...we can agree to disagree here.



See, that's just the big myth about stats. It's a myth perpetuated by people who don't want to do work to understand math.  You just have to know what a stat means and what it's limitations are.

There's a huge chasm of a gap between "stats don't tell the whole story" and "I believe you can always intepret statistics in the way you want to see it."

Any good statistician will agree with the former statement. But the latter just doesn't hold water.

There are standards and peer review applied to statistics; demonstrations of predictive value that can be duplicated and cross-referenced.

You know what basically every experiment ever dealing with observation has shown us? Our eyes lie. Really consistently and really badly, even if we're 100% sure we're not lying. That's where data is helpful.

At some point it's just willfully ignorant, when a statistic disagrees with your preconceived notion, to just say "statistics lie, my opinion is just as valid." Frankly, some "opinions" are not as valid, not because the thoughts and the person aren't valid, but because we've so terribly distorted the idea of what an "opinion" is: when logic, education, and evidence get in the way, it's not opinion, it's miseducation.

I mean, just look at what's happened in baseball. You had the guys with the cigars hanging out at games, trusting their gut and their eyes. "that guy's got power and a sweet swing. Trade for him." "Yeah, but he never walks and strikes out all the time." "I don't need no statistics, fancy boy, i trust my own two eyes." Well guess what? Person 1 doesn't have a job any more because person 2's teams started winning.



EDIT: This post is a lot more "Snarky" sounding than it was meant to be. I apologize for that. I'm not FEELING snarky, but i'm "typing tired."

Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2010, 10:10:43 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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But yehr, that poster was right. There's stats for just about anything, and you can read into every stat in whatever way you want.
That's why people spend years in graduate school learning how to formulate problems and interpret the statistical results that come with them.
To rub it in our faces over here at CelticsBlog? ;)

I'm not saying it's not an important thing, it's just that I think every now and then we look at stats a fair bit too much.
I like stats, because they're objective. Which is to say, regardless of what my opinion of Rajon Rondo is, that's not going to change the fact he averages 9.8.

Every question can be answered with stats, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. You just have to be very aware of what question is being asked.

For example, in this thread people are obviously looking for who's getting the most favorable whistle. Fouls per shot attempt, however, is not a very good statistic to describe that. For example, Nate Robinson was drawing (off the top of my head)about 4 fouls in 30 minutes 2 seasons ago. This year, with the Celtics he is drawing less than 1 in close to 20 minutes per game. Did referees stop liking him? No, he started shooting three pointers, and you don't draw too many fouls on these.

So a natural improvement of our statistic is to look at two-point shots only.

Another improvement that can be considered: not all fouls are created equal. Drawing a loose ball foul under your own basket is not the same as drawing a shooting foul.

Of course, it won't be always that the necessary data is available. But when one sets out to use stats, one should always be aware what the shortcomings are.
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Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2010, 10:16:46 PM »

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But yehr, that poster was right. There's stats for just about anything, and you can read into every stat in whatever way you want.
That's why people spend years in graduate school learning how to formulate problems and interpret the statistical results that come with them.
To rub it in our faces over here at CelticsBlog? ;)

I'm not saying it's not an important thing, it's just that I think every now and then we look at stats a fair bit too much.
I like stats, because they're objective. Which is to say, regardless of what my opinion of Rajon Rondo is, that's not going to change the fact he averages 9.8.

Every question can be answered with stats, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. You just have to be very aware of what question is being asked.

For example, in this thread people are obviously looking for who's getting the most favorable whistle. Fouls per shot attempt, however, is not a very good statistic to describe that. For example, Nate Robinson was drawing (off the top of my head)about 4 fouls in 30 minutes 2 seasons ago. This year, with the Celtics he is drawing less than 1 in close to 20 minutes per game. Did referees stop liking him? No, he started shooting three pointers, and you don't draw too many fouls on these.

So a natural improvement of our statistic is to look at two-point shots only.

Another improvement that can be considered: not all fouls are created equal. Drawing a loose ball foul under your own basket is not the same as drawing a shooting foul.

Of course, it won't be always that the necessary data is available. But when one sets out to use stats, one should always be aware what the shortcomings are.
Heh, your description of why you like them, equals the reason why I think we look at them a bit too much.

We don't filter them, we don't see all those angles you just mentioned. That's why "no rebounds" or "20 rebounds" might actually be closer to 7 and 13.

If you feel me :x

TP for telling it better than I can. That's for sure ;)

Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2010, 10:22:21 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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But yehr, that poster was right. There's stats for just about anything, and you can read into every stat in whatever way you want.
That's why people spend years in graduate school learning how to formulate problems and interpret the statistical results that come with them.
To rub it in our faces over here at CelticsBlog? ;)

I'm not saying it's not an important thing, it's just that I think every now and then we look at stats a fair bit too much.
I like stats, because they're objective. Which is to say, regardless of what my opinion of Rajon Rondo is, that's not going to change the fact he averages 9.8.

Every question can be answered with stats, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. You just have to be very aware of what question is being asked.

For example, in this thread people are obviously looking for who's getting the most favorable whistle. Fouls per shot attempt, however, is not a very good statistic to describe that. For example, Nate Robinson was drawing (off the top of my head)about 4 fouls in 30 minutes 2 seasons ago. This year, with the Celtics he is drawing less than 1 in close to 20 minutes per game. Did referees stop liking him? No, he started shooting three pointers, and you don't draw too many fouls on these.

So a natural improvement of our statistic is to look at two-point shots only.

Another improvement that can be considered: not all fouls are created equal. Drawing a loose ball foul under your own basket is not the same as drawing a shooting foul.

Of course, it won't be always that the necessary data is available. But when one sets out to use stats, one should always be aware what the shortcomings are.
Heh, your description of why you like them, equals the reason why I think we look at them a bit too much.

We don't filter them, we don't see all those angles you just mentioned. That's why "no rebounds" or "20 rebounds" might actually be closer to 7 and 13.

If you feel me :x

TP for telling it better than I can. That's for sure ;)


But I think we filter (and are forced to think about) numbers much more than we filter our perceptions and observations.

In other words, if we see "Lebron James: 1.6 fouls per game" we have to think about what that number means, why it may be that way, what that number may be reflecting, and how we could prove/disprove that it shows something.


On the flipside, we could just sit there and say "The rules don't apply to him because it looks like it...and i root for the celtics and i'm watching boston vs. cleveland!)

Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2010, 10:25:46 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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There's a huge chasm of a gap between "stats don't tell the whole story" and "I believe you can always intepret statistics in the way you want to see it." At some point it's just willfully ignorant, when a statistic disagrees with your preconceived notion, to just say "statistics lie, my opinion is just as valid."

Please read what I posted above re: stats. I don't have anything against stats...its the NBA stats that I disagree with....and I explained why I don't agree in the post....and I didn't say stats lie..where are you getting that from? I said stats don't tell the whole story (NBA stats don't tell the whole story)...there is difference between saying the "story is incomplete" and the "story is a lie".
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Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2010, 10:33:42 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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There's a huge chasm of a gap between "stats don't tell the whole story" and "I believe you can always intepret statistics in the way you want to see it." At some point it's just willfully ignorant, when a statistic disagrees with your preconceived notion, to just say "statistics lie, my opinion is just as valid."

Please read what I posted above re: stats. I don't have anything against stats...its the NBA stats that I disagree with....and I explained why I don't agree in the post....and I didn't say stats lie..where are you getting that from? I said stats don't tell the whole story (NBA stats don't tell the whole story)...there is difference between saying the "story is incomplete" and the "story is a lie".
You've shifted your position somewhat. Its not fair to claim you've only said "stats don't tell the whole story" You've said that, but you've also said:

Stats don't mean a lot....unless you are a marketing company. :)
All I was trying to say is that you can always find some stat to prove your point.

What stats do you have a problem with btw? I didn't see the post where you clarified that.

Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2010, 10:38:06 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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In other words, if we see "Lebron James: 1.6 fouls per game" we have to think about what that number means, why it may be that way, what that number may be reflecting.

On the flipside, we could just sit there and say "The rules don't apply to him because it looks like it...and i root for the celtics and i'm watching boston vs. cleveland!)

Okay, please explain why he commits only 1.6 fouls per game despite the fact that he is one of the most physical player we have in the league. I would really like to know...and I mean it..I'm not just saying it for the sake of arguement. I feel he gets called differently (and I know he is not the first player to be called this way). Why is it a tech. foul when one player stands in an opposition's huddle but its not tech. when LBJ does it? Why is a travel not called against him when replays clearly show that he takes 3 steps very frequently?

I don't dislike the man because I'm a Celtics fan...I dislike him for the preferential treatment that he gets from every NBA corner. I have never posted/said anything about his game/skills/ability.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 10:59:47 PM by barefacedmonk »
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Re: Fouls drawn per field goal attempts for selected players
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2010, 10:42:22 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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You've shifted your position somewhat. Its not fair to claim you've only said "stats don't tell the whole story" You've said that, but you've also said:

Stats don't mean a lot....unless you are a marketing company[/b]. :)
All I was trying to say is that you can always find some stat to prove your point.

What stats do you have a problem with btw? I didn't see the post where you clarified that.

The part in red, I thought it was clear that I was joking....but I guess I was wrong.

I have a problem with the stat that LBJ commits only 1.6 fouls per game.
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