Doc Rivers is a Coward

[CoachCowens]

Being a Doc apologist lets see if I can twist this into what Doc may have been thinking.

"You don’t get a tech in that situation. When you’re up 18 points, again, your team is struggling." - he's right. You just don't. For all the technicals I've seen Perk and Sheed pick up this year, I haven't seen them do it when the C's were up big unless it was a double technical for scuffling with someone. A tech in that situation is enormously stupid.

"You’re not [Kevin] Garnett or one of those guys. You don’t get the liberty to talk anyway to the officials." - perhaps what he is saying is not that he, Doc, has a double standard but that the officials do and that the officials, after spendiong years and years on the courts with these superstars and building relationships with them, will cut slack to a superstar like Kevin Garnett for saying something to them after picking up an out of character stupid foul but that a guy like Baby, who has a lot of stupid fouls and doesn't have that relationship with the refs, isn't afforded that slack.

"But I thought he was playing like the score and I just told him, he’s not at that point yet in his life where he can turn it on or off. And we need him to be an every-possession player. And I didn’t think he was that tonight." - he's right again. When you have been around and have learned the art of being a veteran and get the ability to coast in games a bit but then turn it back on, you can. Especially if you are or were a superstar. But only certain players are afforded that luxury and then only after they have proven themselves capable of being the type of player that can do it. 1.) Baby will never be that player because he just isn't good enough 2.) Even if he was, he hasn't earned that right in his third year and finally 3.) Bench players should never ever be that type of player because you have limited minutes.


That I think is a lot of the problem with Rasheed. He's taken the whole, coasting in games as a vet to conserve oneself to a whole different level and frankly, is setting a horrible example. Now, most Doc detractors will point to Rasheed and point out the hypocrisy of what Doc is doing here but Doc didn't sign Rasheed to a ridiculous 3 year $20 million contract. Rasheed did not get these irreversibly bad habits while playing under Doc. Doc has just been the guy stuck with Wallace and having to make the best out of a bad situation.

Doc may have been trying all year to coach Rasheed up and out of these habits. He did, after all, have one rather public outburst regarding a Wallace bad habit already. Doc may have been preaching to his young players all year that Rasheed's example of doing things is the wrong one. We don't know any of that but many people see the results and jump to conclusions that Doc is letting certain stuff happen or is okay with it when, quite frankly, the complete opposite could be true.



Anyway, that's a Doc supporters twist on the quote. I think it's as viable an explanation as any on what Doc may have been saying and what has been happening behind the scenes.

But why does Doc have to say all that to the media. He Benched him and talked to him. He doesn't have to get into it anymore than that.

I agree with most of what you said about Rasheed but Doc was fully on board with getting him and even helped. As did the big 3

Isn't he just answering reporter and journalists' questions? I figured people asked him "What happened with Glen Davis, why did you bench him" or something along those lines. So he can either lie, say that he isn't going to discuss it, or tell them what he said. I'm assuming that you would have wanted him to say that he isn't going to discuss it but I really do not think it was that big of a deal. If he's not going to talk about that then there are probably a lot of things that he wouldn't talk about with the media. I prefer to know what's going on with the team and player's as long as it doesn't affect their play. I'm sure Baby is more annoyed/upset by his play, Doc benching him, and probably getting yelled at more than he is about Doc explaining the incident.

As a fan I want to hear his explanation. As a coach he doesn't have to get into it.  Not many coaches talk about disciplinary actions to that level for good reason. It doesn't help and you run the risk of losing your players respect.

For a bad real world example: If you screwed up at work and your boss got on you for it then proceeded to talk about it to everyone else is that helping the situation or just piling on unnecessarily. Would you respect your boss for doing that?

If a coach isn't going to get into something as miniscule as this than he would have to keep his mouth shut a lot. Doc has a ton of respect from his players (im sure baby respects him), veteran players, coaches and people around the league. If he loses respect from Baby because of this than I think it is something wrong with Baby not Doc.

As for the bad real world example they are just too different a situation to really compare them at all IMO.

If it so minuscule then why get into it.  An answer along the lines of "I was not happy with the T, we spoke and we moved on," would have been better.

I fail to see the rational that because you don't go in depth about one small thing means all things small are off limits.

EDIT: i meant why would Doc get into it not you.

[Chris]

The reason why Doc never calls out Pierce, Allen, KG, Wallace, etc, is because those guys are all "above the coach." No one likes to hear it, and I don't even like to say it, but it is true. It is the way of the NBA.

Everyone plays favorites, even on the high school level. The only difference between high school, college, and the pros is that preferential treatment in the former two is usually based on skills, whereas the latter is based on a player's salary.

Often the case, yes. I would include Rondo in that group as well. Doc could rip him to shreds at times for games where he plays sloppy defense or doesn't bring it. He gets a pass as well.

In your example though (and including Rondo) there isn't a player on the Celtics that has more talent than those 5. If one of them were less talented then there is an argument there, but all 5 of those guys are by far our most skilled players and so should get the pass.

Doc has been very critical of Rondo.  He has called him out many times publically for his mistakes. 

[EJPLAYA]

The reason why Doc never calls out Pierce, Allen, KG, Wallace, etc, is because those guys are all "above the coach." No one likes to hear it, and I don't even like to say it, but it is true. It is the way of the NBA.

Everyone plays favorites, even on the high school level. The only difference between high school, college, and the pros is that preferential treatment in the former two is usually based on skills, whereas the latter is based on a player's salary.

Often the case, yes. I would include Rondo in that group as well. Doc could rip him to shreds at times for games where he plays sloppy defense or doesn't bring it. He gets a pass as well.

In your example though (and including Rondo) there isn't a player on the Celtics that has more talent than those 5. If one of them were less talented then there is an argument there, but all 5 of those guys are by far our most skilled players and so should get the pass.

Doc has been very critical of Rondo.  He has called him out many times publically for his mistakes. 

He has made some comments about areas where Rondo needed to improve, but he has never gone as far as to bench the guy or tell him that he isn't at the level where he can do things that the stars can do. There have been many times where I felt Rondo was not giving his all or doing stupid things where a little sit down next to the coach would have been appropriate. He doesn't do it though. (I do agree not to the same level of allowance as the older guys though)

[Chris]

For a bad real world example: If you screwed up at work and your boss got on you for it then proceeded to talk about it to everyone else is that helping the situation or just piling on unnecessarily. Would you respect your boss for doing that?

Eh, if the rest of the employees were there, and saw the disciplinary action, I absolutely think it is important to address it with everyone.  It both reinforces the fact that what happened was not acceptable, but also avoids speculation about what is going on.  

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

If we're going to rip Doc for a double standard vis a vis young and old players, don't forget his most glaring error: skipping out on valuable practice time so as to 'save the legs' of his veterans.

Now, back in 2007-2008, such a move was warranted, since that team had immense focus and was winning, and therefore the reward of no practice was deserved.  But here in the year 2010, on a team with focus problems, skipping on practice has disasterous results, especially when they're stinking up the court.  You can't just expect your problems to go away unless you actually work at making them better.  But with our refusal to practice, we've continually been forced to fix things in the games, usually to mixed results.

Beyond the lack of cohesion exacerbated by a lack of practice, there's that small matter of working on one's game in a practice setting, something so important for younger players.  But on this team, with a coach who coddles his veterans, we don't even practice enough to give guys like Rondo/Perk/Baby/TA/Williams/Walker/Giddens/etc the time to work on their floor games, something that also contributes to the lack of sharpness that has doomed this team on occasion.

We like to talk about ubuntu on this team--but we have a coach whose vet favoritism occasionally runs counter to the idea.

[CelticG1]

The reason why Doc never calls out Pierce, Allen, KG, Wallace, etc, is because those guys are all "above the coach." No one likes to hear it, and I don't even like to say it, but it is true. It is the way of the NBA.

Everyone plays favorites, even on the high school level. The only difference between high school, college, and the pros is that preferential treatment in the former two is usually based on skills, whereas the latter is based on a player's salary.

Often the case, yes. I would include Rondo in that group as well. Doc could rip him to shreds at times for games where he plays sloppy defense or doesn't bring it. He gets a pass as well.

In your example though (and including Rondo) there isn't a player on the Celtics that has more talent than those 5. If one of them were less talented then there is an argument there, but all 5 of those guys are by far our most skilled players and so should get the pass.

Doc has been very critical of Rondo.  He has called him out many times publically for his mistakes. 

He has made some comments about areas where Rondo needed to improve, but he has never gone as far as to bench the guy or tell him that he isn't at the level where he can do things that the stars can do. There have been many times where I felt Rondo was not giving his all or doing stupid things where a little sit down next to the coach would have been appropriate. He doesn't do it though. (I do agree not to the same level of allowance as the older guys though)

To be fair though it wasn't like there was anyway someone could realistically fill in for Rondo even in spot minutes to make a point. Doc knew it and Rondo knew it so there wasn't much he could do. If Doc went too far over the line then there is the risk of us getting screwed over. In Baby's case Doc is making it blatantly obvious that he is not afraid to say certain things about him. People such as Williams and Sheed are more than capable of filling in for Baby so it is a lot less risk to call out Davis than Rondo.

[Chris]

The reason why Doc never calls out Pierce, Allen, KG, Wallace, etc, is because those guys are all "above the coach." No one likes to hear it, and I don't even like to say it, but it is true. It is the way of the NBA.

Everyone plays favorites, even on the high school level. The only difference between high school, college, and the pros is that preferential treatment in the former two is usually based on skills, whereas the latter is based on a player's salary.

Often the case, yes. I would include Rondo in that group as well. Doc could rip him to shreds at times for games where he plays sloppy defense or doesn't bring it. He gets a pass as well.

In your example though (and including Rondo) there isn't a player on the Celtics that has more talent than those 5. If one of them were less talented then there is an argument there, but all 5 of those guys are by far our most skilled players and so should get the pass.

Doc has been very critical of Rondo.  He has called him out many times publically for his mistakes. 

He has made some comments about areas where Rondo needed to improve, but he has never gone as far as to bench the guy or tell him that he isn't at the level where he can do things that the stars can do. There have been many times where I felt Rondo was not giving his all or doing stupid things where a little sit down next to the coach would have been appropriate. He doesn't do it though. (I do agree not to the same level of allowance as the older guys though)

Well, to be fair, Rondo's issues have generally been strictly basketball related though.  Whether it is his lack of aggressiveness, or his tendency to take too many risks (and he most certainly has been benched at times when he has been ineffective).  Rondo has not had the dumb, immaturity issues that Davis has exhibited this year (the broken hand, swearing at the fan, and now the dumb technical).

[CelticG1]

Being a Doc apologist lets see if I can twist this into what Doc may have been thinking.

"You don’t get a tech in that situation. When you’re up 18 points, again, your team is struggling." - he's right. You just don't. For all the technicals I've seen Perk and Sheed pick up this year, I haven't seen them do it when the C's were up big unless it was a double technical for scuffling with someone. A tech in that situation is enormously stupid.

"You’re not [Kevin] Garnett or one of those guys. You don’t get the liberty to talk anyway to the officials." - perhaps what he is saying is not that he, Doc, has a double standard but that the officials do and that the officials, after spendiong years and years on the courts with these superstars and building relationships with them, will cut slack to a superstar like Kevin Garnett for saying something to them after picking up an out of character stupid foul but that a guy like Baby, who has a lot of stupid fouls and doesn't have that relationship with the refs, isn't afforded that slack.

"But I thought he was playing like the score and I just told him, he’s not at that point yet in his life where he can turn it on or off. And we need him to be an every-possession player. And I didn’t think he was that tonight." - he's right again. When you have been around and have learned the art of being a veteran and get the ability to coast in games a bit but then turn it back on, you can. Especially if you are or were a superstar. But only certain players are afforded that luxury and then only after they have proven themselves capable of being the type of player that can do it. 1.) Baby will never be that player because he just isn't good enough 2.) Even if he was, he hasn't earned that right in his third year and finally 3.) Bench players should never ever be that type of player because you have limited minutes.


That I think is a lot of the problem with Rasheed. He's taken the whole, coasting in games as a vet to conserve oneself to a whole different level and frankly, is setting a horrible example. Now, most Doc detractors will point to Rasheed and point out the hypocrisy of what Doc is doing here but Doc didn't sign Rasheed to a ridiculous 3 year $20 million contract. Rasheed did not get these irreversibly bad habits while playing under Doc. Doc has just been the guy stuck with Wallace and having to make the best out of a bad situation.

Doc may have been trying all year to coach Rasheed up and out of these habits. He did, after all, have one rather public outburst regarding a Wallace bad habit already. Doc may have been preaching to his young players all year that Rasheed's example of doing things is the wrong one. We don't know any of that but many people see the results and jump to conclusions that Doc is letting certain stuff happen or is okay with it when, quite frankly, the complete opposite could be true.



Anyway, that's a Doc supporters twist on the quote. I think it's as viable an explanation as any on what Doc may have been saying and what has been happening behind the scenes.

But why does Doc have to say all that to the media. He Benched him and talked to him. He doesn't have to get into it anymore than that.

I agree with most of what you said about Rasheed but Doc was fully on board with getting him and even helped. As did the big 3

Isn't he just answering reporter and journalists' questions? I figured people asked him "What happened with Glen Davis, why did you bench him" or something along those lines. So he can either lie, say that he isn't going to discuss it, or tell them what he said. I'm assuming that you would have wanted him to say that he isn't going to discuss it but I really do not think it was that big of a deal. If he's not going to talk about that then there are probably a lot of things that he wouldn't talk about with the media. I prefer to know what's going on with the team and player's as long as it doesn't affect their play. I'm sure Baby is more annoyed/upset by his play, Doc benching him, and probably getting yelled at more than he is about Doc explaining the incident.

As a fan I want to hear his explanation. As a coach he doesn't have to get into it.  Not many coaches talk about disciplinary actions to that level for good reason. It doesn't help and you run the risk of losing your players respect.

For a bad real world example: If you screwed up at work and your boss got on you for it then proceeded to talk about it to everyone else is that helping the situation or just piling on unnecessarily. Would you respect your boss for doing that?

If a coach isn't going to get into something as miniscule as this than he would have to keep his mouth shut a lot. Doc has a ton of respect from his players (im sure baby respects him), veteran players, coaches and people around the league. If he loses respect from Baby because of this than I think it is something wrong with Baby not Doc.

As for the bad real world example they are just too different a situation to really compare them at all IMO.

If it so minuscule then why get into it.  An answer along the lines of "I was not happy with the T, we spoke and we moved on," would have been better.

I fail to see the rational that because you don't go in depth about one small thing means all things small are off limits.

EDIT: i meant why would Doc get into it not you.

I guess my point is that I don't see it as a big deal either way. You are saying that it if it is not a big deal then why get into it and I am saying that it is not a big deal so why not get into it. I just think that the actual comments he says to the media are not that big a deal. He praises Baby enough where I think he can call him out once in a while too. I think that the main problem is a basketball problem and a basketball problem outweighs his comments to the media a lot more.

I know I've gone off on some tangents but also maybe Doc saying something like this to the media actually shows Baby how serious he feels about the situation rather than just brushing it off.

[connerhenry43]

Glad I started this thread and love all the input you guys are giving. However, no one is answering the question:

there is never a good time to get a tech, but what is more ideal than when you are up 18? why did doc mention that it was a bad time for a tech? if you had to pick your time, my guess is that up 18 would be as good as any to get one.

[guava_wrench]

I am probably a little late to post this since the incident happened a few days ago, but this to me was so upsetting.

"You don’t get a tech in that situation," said a clearly annoyed Rivers, who immediately yanked Davis with Boston up 72-54 with 1:15 remaining in the third frame. "When you’re up 18 points, again, your team is struggling. You’re not [Kevin] Garnett or one of those guys. You don’t get the liberty to talk anyway to the officials. I don’t know, clearly, he earned it, I guess. But you just don’t get it. And he wasn’t playing well anyway, at that point. But I thought he was playing like the score and I just told him, he’s not at that point yet in his life where he can turn it on or off. And we need him to be an every-possession player. And I didn’t think he was that tonight."

Why does Doc say this kind of stuff? Is it because he is so concerned with being liked by the media? If so, that is pathetic. Rasheed Wallace has stolen 5 million dollars from the Celtics this year, mails it in every night, gets technicals like I get free refills at McDonalds. I have been so happy with Glen Davis lately. I know some on here do not like him, but he is playing w/ a chip on his shoulder and he is working his tail off. He is one of the few, if not only, offensive rebounding threats on the team.

Not only that, if there is a time to get a tech, i would think up 18 is not a bad time to get one. Sheed would do it with a minute to go in a game 7 if the mood hit him.


so to recap, if you are young, techs are bad. if you are a veteran, and you lead the league in techs every year, you are OK, and we will camp on your doorstep the day free agency starts and do all we can to get you to sign with us.

Did you see that play he was referring to?  It was pretty ridiculous.  It was clear baby was frustrated and so he took a player out (can't remember who it was exactly). 

If Rasheed had made that play (which he doesn't make stupid plays like that) I honestly believe he would have gotten the same reaction from Doc.  Sheed gets techs for arguing bad calls.  Not for getting frustrated and laying a dude out. 

Don't forget that Sheed also argues a lot of good calls. He just argues most calls.

[barefacedmonk]

there is never a good time to get a tech, but what is more ideal than when you are up 18? why did doc mention that it was a bad time for a tech? if you had to pick your time, my guess is that up 18 would be as good as any to get one.

Techs have the potential to turn into momentum killers. Remember the techs during the Hawks game this season? Plus, it dosen't take very long for an eighteen point lead to disappear.

[nickagneta]

Glad I started this thread and love all the input you guys are giving. However, no one is answering the question:

there is never a good time to get a tech, but what is more ideal than when you are up 18? why did doc mention that it was a bad time for a tech? if you had to pick your time, my guess is that up 18 would be as good as any to get one.

You have already answered your own question. There is NO ideal time to get a technical. Do it in a close game and it could mean the difference between a win and a loss. Do it while getting blown out and you are just making a bad situation worse. Do it while you are up big points and you could give an opponent an opportunity to rally.

But if there is an especially bad time to get a tech it is when you are up big points and starting to play half-heartedly and starting to let a team back in the game. That is the exact situation in which Baby committed his technical. It shows a lack of discipline, a lack of maturity and a lack of professionalism when you are up around 20 points over a clearly over matched opponent and you start throwing people around foolishly and start whining and complaining to the refs about.

Too many times this year Davis has shown that he has earned his moniker, Big Baby. This was another and he deserved to be taken to task. The Celtics were up 24 points and had the lead whittled down to 18 and he fouls someone and then picks up a technical. That played allowed the Kings to close to the lead to 15 and they narrowed what was once a close to insurmountable lead to a very do-able 13 point lead entering the 4th quarter.

It was not an ideal time to get a tech.

[EJPLAYA]

The reason why Doc never calls out Pierce, Allen, KG, Wallace, etc, is because those guys are all "above the coach." No one likes to hear it, and I don't even like to say it, but it is true. It is the way of the NBA.

Everyone plays favorites, even on the high school level. The only difference between high school, college, and the pros is that preferential treatment in the former two is usually based on skills, whereas the latter is based on a player's salary.

Often the case, yes. I would include Rondo in that group as well. Doc could rip him to shreds at times for games where he plays sloppy defense or doesn't bring it. He gets a pass as well.

In your example though (and including Rondo) there isn't a player on the Celtics that has more talent than those 5. If one of them were less talented then there is an argument there, but all 5 of those guys are by far our most skilled players and so should get the pass.

Doc has been very critical of Rondo.  He has called him out many times publically for his mistakes. 

He has made some comments about areas where Rondo needed to improve, but he has never gone as far as to bench the guy or tell him that he isn't at the level where he can do things that the stars can do. There have been many times where I felt Rondo was not giving his all or doing stupid things where a little sit down next to the coach would have been appropriate. He doesn't do it though. (I do agree not to the same level of allowance as the older guys though)

To be fair though it wasn't like there was anyway someone could realistically fill in for Rondo even in spot minutes to make a point. Doc knew it and Rondo knew it so there wasn't much he could do. If Doc went too far over the line then there is the risk of us getting screwed over. In Baby's case Doc is making it blatantly obvious that he is not afraid to say certain things about him. People such as Williams and Sheed are more than capable of filling in for Baby so it is a lot less risk to call out Davis than Rondo.

Actually if I were in Doc's shoes I would look at it the reverse. Since he doesn't have anyone who can come in and fill in at a remotely close level to Rondo, it is even more important that he make him play right. If a 1-1 conversation off the floor doesn't do that then you send a lot bigger message when you sit him. It shows the team that no one is bigger than the team, and also makes it that much easier to quickly re-insert him. Allowing Rondo to think he is too important to discipline doesn't help. In 3-4 years Rondo will be like PP, KG, Ray, etc where you no longer have that option. Good thought though. I see where you are coming from.

[Chris]

there is never a good time to get a tech, but what is more ideal than when you are up 18? why did doc mention that it was a bad time for a tech? if you had to pick your time, my guess is that up 18 would be as good as any to get one.

Techs have the potential to turn into momentum killers. Remember the techs during the Hawks game this season? Plus, it dosen't take very long for an eighteen point lead to disappear.

Exactly.  Doc's point wasn't that they were up 18, it was that the momentum was already starting to turn, and the technical pushed it even harder in the other direction. 

[BballTim]

The reason why Doc never calls out Pierce, Allen, KG, Wallace, etc, is because those guys are all "above the coach." No one likes to hear it, and I don't even like to say it, but it is true. It is the way of the NBA.

Everyone plays favorites, even on the high school level. The only difference between high school, college, and the pros is that preferential treatment in the former two is usually based on skills, whereas the latter is based on a player's salary.

Often the case, yes. I would include Rondo in that group as well. Doc could rip him to shreds at times for games where he plays sloppy defense or doesn't bring it. He gets a pass as well.

In your example though (and including Rondo) there isn't a player on the Celtics that has more talent than those 5. If one of them were less talented then there is an argument there, but all 5 of those guys are by far our most skilled players and so should get the pass.

Doc has been very critical of Rondo.  He has called him out many times publically for his mistakes. 

He has made some comments about areas where Rondo needed to improve, but he has never gone as far as to bench the guy or tell him that he isn't at the level where he can do things that the stars can do. There have been many times where I felt Rondo was not giving his all or doing stupid things where a little sit down next to the coach would have been appropriate. He doesn't do it though. (I do agree not to the same level of allowance as the older guys though)

  There was one or two games earlier this season that Eddie finished the game because Doc didn't like the way he was playing, like the Nets game. And, by the same token, Davis doesn't get benched for doing stupid things.

  I also don't think that Doc shares many of the criticisms of Rondo that show up repeatedly on this board.