Author Topic: What's Brogdon's Problem  (Read 7423 times)

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Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2023, 04:50:52 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Some of you guys may have missed the Jared Weiss Athletic article detailing Brogdon's situation leading up to the trade. We talked about it in a previous thread last week that probably should have been merged with this one. He did confirm that Brogdon was upset and preferred to be dealt. Here it is (behind paywall):

https://theathletic.com/4916611/2023/10/01/jrue-holiday-celtics-malcolm-brogdon/

Basically, he was unhappy about the aborted trade and while Stevens was trying to smooth things over in case no other trade could be completed, Mazzulla let it slip at the Brown signing presser that White would be the starter. That made things worse because Brogdon felt he at least deserved a shot at competing for the role (my guess is that he already didn't like how Mazzulla was using him and this reinforced in his mind that the coach didn't think he was good enough to have an expanded role). Weiss went on to say that later in the offseason things had calmed down but Brogdon still preferred to be moved.

I think it just comes down to respect and his role. Brogdon's a proud, intelligent guy. He chose the Celtics and willingly took a lesser bench role. He came here for Udoka, not Mazzulla. His weird "all threes and drives" role seemed like he was just doing exactly what Mazzulla wanted and he did it well enough to win a sixth man, but it also meant he wasn't facilitating or being a PG. Then when the season ended, fans and pundits wondered why the team still had a playmaking problem and concluded that Brogdon failed in that respect, never considering the fact that he was never given a chance to actually try. When he actually played with the starters, he was almost always just a spot shooter/floor spacer because of course Tatum and Brown are going to end up controlling the ball. The "injury risk" narrative also started up again after the playoffs, even though he didn't injure his knee which is what everybody was afraid of. In his mind, I'm sure he felt a little scapegoated even though he tried valiantly to play through the injury. Honestly, he shouldn't have even been out there and I at least partially blame Mazzulla for that as well.

Of course, trades are part of the business but I think Brogdon has a right to be a little miffed. He's clearly an intelligent and proud guy. You don't represent the player's union unless you have a strong sense of your own self-worth (note that Brown and Grant also are player's reps). Sometimes fans seem to think players should be happy just to be on a good team, but what if respect is more important to someone like Brogdon?

Honestly, I'm really surprised how fast fans have "circled the wagons" around the organization and Mazzulla. Are we forgetting that he totally got outcoached in the playoffs? That he drove the "3s and drive and kick" philosophy into the ground last season? That, as I mentioned before he had Brogdon playing a very limited role and also didn't protect him in the playoffs? I think Mazzulla will be better, but it doesn't mean I've forgotten how big a disaster he was last year. I mean, people in the crowd were saying he wasn't even coaching during the time outs late in the Heat series (I believe Bill Simmons mentioned this on his pod) and that the players were basically coaching themselves. Why then, is it so hard to believe that similar to Grant, Brogdon might of had some reasons besides the trade to be unhappy?

Even the criticism about his defense could be seen as a little unfair. Yes, his defense and lack of physicality in the playoffs was disappointing. However, from his perspective I'm sure he was thinking, "Dude our entire team defense stunk because Mazzulla kept screaming about shooting 40 3s a game, which is why me and every other team member mentioned a lack of defensive identity at the end of the season." Why shouldn't Brogdon feels a little scapegoated when his bad defense is spotlighted but the team's coaches never made defense an emphasis to begin with?

Lastly, I'm sure he won't be in Portland past the trade deadline. They're saying the right things, but there's no logical reason for him to be there long-term. I'm sure Cronin has assured him that once the right deal has come along (and maybe once he's proved he's healthy), he will be off to a better situation.

Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2023, 11:13:39 AM »

Offline jambr380

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I was totally in favor of Bringing Brogdon in and was even happy that he was going to get a bigger role once Smart was traded. The fact is, he just was never happy here. It's been mentioned in other posts, but even throughout the year, it was mentioned that he sacrificed in interviews and such. I just don't get this. He was a major rotation piece on a championship caliber team - that should have been enough. He was even rewarded for his play by winning 6moty.

As for players liking Rob more than Brogdon, obviously a lot of it has to do with being around Rob longer, but they also have vastly different personalities. There was also a lot more talk about Blake being a mentor and a joker in the locker room. Absolutely none of that was said about Brogdon and they were here the same amount of time.

I wish Brogdon the best moving forward, but in talking to fans of the Pacers and Bucks, this isn't exactly a new thing with him. Not that he is a bad guy by any means, but he might not be the perfect locker room presence for a team contending for a Title like we all thought we were getting when he arrived here.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2023, 12:24:57 PM by jambr380 »

Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2023, 12:27:11 PM »

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I was totally in favor of Bringing Brogdon in and was even happy that he was going to get a bigger role once Smart was traded. The fact is, he just was never happy here. It's been mentioned in other posts, but even throughout the year, it was mentioned that he sacrificed in interviews and such. I just don't get this. He was a major rotation piece on a championship caliber team - that should have been enough. He was even rewarded for his play by winning 6moty.

As for players liking Rob more than Brogdon, obviously a lot of it has to do with being around Rob longer, but they also have vastly different personalities. There was also a lot more talk about Blake being a mentor and a joker in the locker room. Absolutely none of that was said about Brogdon and they were here the same amount of time.

I wish Brogdon the best moving forward, but in talking to fans of the Pacers and Bucks, this isn't exactly a new thing with him. Not that he is a bad guy by any means, but he might not be the perfect locker room presence for a team contending for a Title like we all thought we were getting when he arrived here.

You pretty much nailed it. Brogdon is a smart guy too, and well spoken in interviews, but one thing that did kind of tick me off was him criticizing the team and coaches for not emphasizing defense, yet at times Brogdon didn't play good defense either. Now maybe he was playing hurt in those times, but it just looked like he wasn't backing up his talk with play on the court.

I liked Brogdon. Wish him well. It never felt like he was gonna be here long term though. I actually think there's a real chance though we can keep both White + Holiday long term here along with Jaylen/Tatum/KP (Horford will probably retire in 2+ years so his money will come off soon, though he's not making a ton either at the moment)
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Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2023, 03:51:31 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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I was totally in favor of Bringing Brogdon in and was even happy that he was going to get a bigger role once Smart was traded. The fact is, he just was never happy here. It's been mentioned in other posts, but even throughout the year, it was mentioned that he sacrificed in interviews and such. I just don't get this. He was a major rotation piece on a championship caliber team - that should have been enough. He was even rewarded for his play by winning 6moty.

As for players liking Rob more than Brogdon, obviously a lot of it has to do with being around Rob longer, but they also have vastly different personalities. There was also a lot more talk about Blake being a mentor and a joker in the locker room. Absolutely none of that was said about Brogdon and they were here the same amount of time.

I wish Brogdon the best moving forward, but in talking to fans of the Pacers and Bucks, this isn't exactly a new thing with him. Not that he is a bad guy by any means, but he might not be the perfect locker room presence for a team contending for a Title like we all thought we were getting when he arrived here.

You pretty much nailed it. Brogdon is a smart guy too, and well spoken in interviews, but one thing that did kind of tick me off was him criticizing the team and coaches for not emphasizing defense, yet at times Brogdon didn't play good defense either. Now maybe he was playing hurt in those times, but it just looked like he wasn't backing up his talk with play on the court.

I liked Brogdon. Wish him well. It never felt like he was gonna be here long term though. I actually think there's a real chance though we can keep both White + Holiday long term here along with Jaylen/Tatum/KP (Horford will probably retire in 2+ years so his money will come off soon, though he's not making a ton either at the moment)

I think maybe there is something to the idea that Brogdon didn't necessarily mesh perfectly with the team, personality or on court-wise. He has a reputation of being a really professional and mature guy, but his exit was mostly met with crickets by the team, other than a few tweets.

I just feel the need to defend him because there is a fan instinct to bash somebody if they say they want to leave. Yeah, he's not a superstar and his defense wasn't great, but he had a great year in his role and can' t be blamed for getting hurt at the end.

I also feel that in all the excitement of the new year, people are forgetting how bad Mazzulla was last season. It seems very likely that some of the friction was due to disagreements with role and personality conflicts. If Udoka were still the coach, do you really think players would be outwardly wanting to leave (Grant, Malcolm)? Or would he have been better able to manage their egos, roles, and playing time? Would a different coach have been able to handle the Grant situation without benching him? Would Malcolm be doing more than just shooting 3s and driving to the basket?

Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2023, 04:14:13 PM »

Offline ozgod

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I was totally in favor of Bringing Brogdon in and was even happy that he was going to get a bigger role once Smart was traded. The fact is, he just was never happy here. It's been mentioned in other posts, but even throughout the year, it was mentioned that he sacrificed in interviews and such. I just don't get this. He was a major rotation piece on a championship caliber team - that should have been enough. He was even rewarded for his play by winning 6moty.

As for players liking Rob more than Brogdon, obviously a lot of it has to do with being around Rob longer, but they also have vastly different personalities. There was also a lot more talk about Blake being a mentor and a joker in the locker room. Absolutely none of that was said about Brogdon and they were here the same amount of time.

I wish Brogdon the best moving forward, but in talking to fans of the Pacers and Bucks, this isn't exactly a new thing with him. Not that he is a bad guy by any means, but he might not be the perfect locker room presence for a team contending for a Title like we all thought we were getting when he arrived here.

You pretty much nailed it. Brogdon is a smart guy too, and well spoken in interviews, but one thing that did kind of tick me off was him criticizing the team and coaches for not emphasizing defense, yet at times Brogdon didn't play good defense either. Now maybe he was playing hurt in those times, but it just looked like he wasn't backing up his talk with play on the court.

I liked Brogdon. Wish him well. It never felt like he was gonna be here long term though. I actually think there's a real chance though we can keep both White + Holiday long term here along with Jaylen/Tatum/KP (Horford will probably retire in 2+ years so his money will come off soon, though he's not making a ton either at the moment)

I think maybe there is something to the idea that Brogdon didn't necessarily mesh perfectly with the team, personality or on court-wise. He has a reputation of being a really professional and mature guy, but his exit was mostly met with crickets by the team, other than a few tweets.

I just feel the need to defend him because there is a fan instinct to bash somebody if they say they want to leave. Yeah, he's not a superstar and his defense wasn't great, but he had a great year in his role and can' t be blamed for getting hurt at the end.

I also feel that in all the excitement of the new year, people are forgetting how bad Mazzulla was last season. It seems very likely that some of the friction was due to disagreements with role and personality conflicts. If Udoka were still the coach, do you really think players would be outwardly wanting to leave (Grant, Malcolm)? Or would he have been better able to manage their egos, roles, and playing time? Would a different coach have been able to handle the Grant situation without benching him? Would Malcolm be doing more than just shooting 3s and driving to the basket?

Yes, fans tend to look at anyone who leaves, or wants to leave, in a negative light, which isn't always fair. If we can't find on court reasons, then we try to fill in the blanks with off court speculation. With Brogdon, it could be as simple as he's an introvert and just came in and did his job but wasn't that close to anyone on the team. I've worked with plenty of folks like that - great at their job, always on time, consummate professionals, but they don't want to get really close to anyone at work. Blake was brought up as a contrast - Blake seems to be more of an extrovert, always cracking jokes, everyone loves him - I've known people like that at work too, but it doesn't make them any more or less professional than the introverts. As Jambr said everyone has a different personality, but the extroverts seem to be missed more when they leave, just because of the nature of their personalities, but it doesn't make the introverts bad.

(Look at me now adding to the speculation by assuming Malcolm is an introvert  :angel: )
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Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2023, 05:12:15 PM »

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I see Brogdon's main problem as basketball related not personality related. It is his skill-set.

He is a very good glue guy in a small complementary offensive role as he showed in Milwaukee.

But he can only be a star if he is allowed a huge amount of time on the ball. He is a slow methodical ball-handler who uses his size well to bully his way inside but while he does this the rest of the offense slows to a crawl as others stand around and watch him play one-on-one basketball.

This creates two issues:

(1) He can only be a star if on a team with limited offensive options as that is the only way he can monopolize possession. If put on a team with other stars, he has to take a much smaller role and is no longer a star talent.

(2) He is not efficient enough offensively to demand a high amount of time on the ball when there are good alternatives to him. This was the issue with the Jays. They were simply better than him. As will be the case on pretty much every strong team in the league. The only teams in the league where Brogdon is good enough to justify a large amount of time on the ball is on mediocre teams like he was on in Indiana.

Personality wise, he seems like the type to just get on with things. He may be unhappy but he'll still show up and do his job. Never concerned about him as a troublemaker.

I do think he is an ambitious lad and that he believes he can be a star in this league and wants that opportunity. I also believe he is happier on a 35-45 win team where he is a star than a 50-60 win team where is not a star. He'd rather have the opportunity to show what he can do. That is fine. His choice. More money. More plaudits. More enjoyment. Have at it.

Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2023, 07:05:57 PM »

Online green_bballers13

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Holliday>>>Brogdon. No one wants to hear that someone is better than them. Being traded with two first round picks and an elite rim-protector (when healthy) can't help Brogdon's confidence today.

That being said, he's a good player and I hope he continues to have a productive career and remain healthy.

Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2024, 03:37:19 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Brogdon has shared that he didn't feel valued by the Celtics all the time, which is why he's much happier in Portland than he was here.

Quote
Although he’s not sure if he’ll end up staying there, former Celtics guard Malcolm Brogdon1 said he’s enjoying his time in Portland with the Blazers.

“I’m happy here. I’m valued here. Valued in this leadership/lead-guard role,’’ Brogdon told The Athletic. “And I can’t complain with that. I’m happy in Portland.’’

The Celtics traded Brogdon, Robert Williams III, and a pair of first-round picks to the Blazers in exchange for Jrue Holiday in October.

“When I was first traded, I viewed it as an opportunity. I really did,’’ Brogdon said. “You can ask people around me how my energy was in training camp. I was excited to be here. I was excited to be with a championship coach. And I was excited to go from a place where I wasn’t as valued, and go to place where I am very valued.’’

Brogdon said he did feel valued by the Celtics occasionally during his one season with the team. But, it wasn’t all the time.

“At times. At times,’’ Brogdon said. “I was there for a year, won Sixth Man of the Year, and they shipped me out. So like … I didn’t feel very valued there. Here, I feel valued. Portland has embraced me. And I’ve enjoyed being coached by Chauncey (Billups).’’

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2024/01/31/malcolm-brogdon-blazers-celtics-quotes/?p1=hp_featurestack
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Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2024, 03:45:49 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Chauncey Billups is a coach.  He won a championship as a player.  He isn't a "championship coach".


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Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2024, 03:48:36 PM »

Offline dannyboy35

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  Brogdon was a better player than smart . So was White. Yet they had both playing behind him. Why? Because SMART would have made a big problem about it.
  Even in the playoffs when White was clearly a better player in both sides of the ball you’d see Smart playing 36 minutes and White riding the pine with like 23 mins. The Celtics could not risk Smart ruining the locker room. Does anybody seriously think Smart would have accepted what was best for the team? I don’t blame Brogdon . After having to bow to someone  like that and THEN be offered in trade I dint think he owes the Celtics a lie that he was thrilled with it.
   He’s human. He was a pro when he was with us until then and accepted his role. White did too. Smart would not have. Pritchard was worse expressing displeasure he wasn’t traded after the trade deadline. I wish Brogdon well. 

Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2024, 05:52:51 AM »

Offline cman88

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  Brogdon was a better player than smart . So was White. Yet they had both playing behind him. Why? Because SMART would have made a big problem about it.
  Even in the playoffs when White was clearly a better player in both sides of the ball you’d see Smart playing 36 minutes and White riding the pine with like 23 mins. The Celtics could not risk Smart ruining the locker room. Does anybody seriously think Smart would have accepted what was best for the team? I don’t blame Brogdon . After having to bow to someone  like that and THEN be offered in trade I dint think he owes the Celtics a lie that he was thrilled with it.
   He’s human. He was a pro when he was with us until then and accepted his role. White did too. Smart would not have. Pritchard was worse expressing displeasure he wasn’t traded after the trade deadline. I wish Brogdon well.

its why ultimately smart had to be traded IMO. sometimes its easier to take a step back on a different team than one you were there for 9 years.

not sure Smart would've been happy being almost 5th fiddle here in Boston this year like Jrue is basically.

Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2024, 06:05:46 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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  Brogdon was a better player than smart . So was White. Yet they had both playing behind him. Why? Because SMART would have made a big problem about it.
  Even in the playoffs when White was clearly a better player in both sides of the ball you’d see Smart playing 36 minutes and White riding the pine with like 23 mins. The Celtics could not risk Smart ruining the locker room. Does anybody seriously think Smart would have accepted what was best for the team? I don’t blame Brogdon . After having to bow to someone  like that and THEN be offered in trade I dint think he owes the Celtics a lie that he was thrilled with it.
   He’s human. He was a pro when he was with us until then and accepted his role. White did too. Smart would not have. Pritchard was worse expressing displeasure he wasn’t traded after the trade deadline. I wish Brogdon well.

No, Brodgon is not a better player than Smart. He's a better scorer, but his defense isn't even comparable (and that made him a liability in the playoffs, especially against Miami.

White played 29.7 MPG in the playoffs last year, while Smart played 34. Smart wasn't playing 50% more minutes like you're implying.

I get that some people didn't like Smart, but that doesn't mean you should act like he was a bad player or a locker room problem.
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Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2024, 06:11:20 AM »

Offline scaryjerry

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Get him a diaper, mans a giant cry baby. Toxic cancer that was injured the moment the games really mattered. Good riddance.

Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2024, 06:16:55 AM »

Offline Birdman

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Sour grapes, don’t need this in a locker room
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Re: What's Brogdon's Problem
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2024, 06:27:52 AM »

Offline cman88

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I am kind of disappointed in his comments though....I mean its an odd thing to say that you are more valued/happier on a losing team because you feel you taking more shots/having a bigger role than being 6th man on a championship contender. and his stats this year are barely any better than last year. even white came off the bench last year.

of course on a winning team that has Brown/Tatum you are going to play a smaller role and have to sacrifice somewhat. guess some of the players just care more about their personal stats/starting than the big picture. think its a big reason that Dame is crying in Milwaukee.

I mean even coming off the bench he averaged more points than both smart/white at 14.9ppg which was 3rd best on the team....

looking deeper into the stats he isn't really putting up much more this year than he did last. and id say him being injured was a BIG reason we lost to Miami as we lost his 15ppg off the bench.

so glad all our guys this year seem willing to sacrifice and don't care about having lesser stats because they are looking at the big picture. Jrue/KP seem like they could care less and are just enjoying the atmosphere/vibes. even brown/tatum have less stats and don't seem to care.