Cowen's Celtics in Today's NBA

[PLamb]

PLamb to be fair, defense wasn't emphasized back then the way it is today.  If a team focused on getting back on D and cutting off the outlet passes from Cowens and Paul Silas to the guards, I'd be real curious as to how that system would have played in today's NBA.

Phoenix comes the closest and they're known for playing no D.

Plus they would have been forced to defend the spreading out that teams do nowadays to take advantage of the 3.  That may have impacted their ability to fast break all the time as opposed to picking their spots.

Would love to see it attempted though.  Basketball is a much more entertaining game played that way vs walking it up and clearing out for Pierce in crunch time.....

All very fair points and good observations but I think that game can still be played in today's NBA but the coaches won't do it and I think the players would rebel against any coach that would try to train them to be able to pull off that type of offensive system

Teams just do not train in the same cardiovascular manner that they did back then

I remember when Pitino first came aboard with the Celtics and that first training camp he had he had half the team sucking oxygen out of masks and taking fluids intravenously because he ran them into the ground because he was sure he would be running from tip off to final horn

Today's NBA player just can't run like they did in the 70's and that is as much a reason for today's game as any other

Last couple of counterpoints

The three point line used in that fast breaking system might make that offensive system even more dangerous

Phoenix might come close to that offensive system but the last team to run that system was the Lakers of Magic

Phoenix doesn't play good defense not because of the offensive system they play but because they are just a poor defensive team

That offensive system is something that can be done and still have a good defense if you have the players to do it

[Brickowski]

Lee is a very good player but he's no Cowens.  Those Cowens/Havlicek/White teams in the mid 70's would win going away in today's NBA.  The league had not yet over expanded.  How many teams have players as good as Paul Silas or Paul Westphal coming off the bench?

[Celtics17]

I barely remember Cowens, in fact I was only about 7. However, that early 70's championship team was the reason I became a Celtics fan as I live in the midwest and otherwise would not be. I find it interesting to hear about players of the past and find it bewildering how so many younger people discount the abilities of those players. It's like younger people today think that 'athleticism' is something that just happened in their lifetime. When I graduated high school 25 years ago I had close to a 40 inch vertical jump, weighed 175 pounds and could bench press 300 and long jumped almost 22 feet ( the first time I ever tried it by the way) and I have my doubts that the average high shcool in America has many guys who can do those three things. Why is it that young people today think that a good player in todays NBA would equate to a championship player  20 or 30 years ago? I guess more then anything else its just a lack of maturity or maybe I should use the word experience. Now, if someone asked if Lebron would still be a stud in the game 30 years ago then that is a totally different question.

[sk7326]

Today defense is just so much more evolved than it was in 1974 - athleticism is used on the defensive end, and the game is scouted so much better.  It would be hard for ANY team to run like they used to.  Phoenix does - although now they are now a rotten defensive team - the D'Antoni teams were for the most part pretty good defensively (because they played low mistake defense, avoid committing fouls and defend the 3 decently).  The game is more physical now - although in the 1970s there were more fistfights since the league's front office was run by numbskulls. 

The big man outlet pass is a relic unfortunately - really only Kevin Love does it with great aplomb these days ... the hit ahead is what allows the fast break to really open up.  Teams wouldn't mind running - players love an offensive up tempo style ... but it's hard to do.  Pitino's problem was bringing the press with him - it is too hard to press at the pro level excessively - when big men handle the ball so well in 2010, most teams that press a lot would get shredded. 

The one thing that I do think is controllable about why fast breaking is no longer a classic offense is coaching ego - most coaches want to control every single set.  It is hard to run when you have to run plays each time down the floor.  Heinsohn ran a high post continuity type offense and trusted the players to make the adjustments.  That sort of trust is not there anymore - and it's the coaches who are at fault mostly.

[2short]

Here are some relics of past decades.
boxing out, sounds simple but rarely done in the nba
pick & roll defense/offense, euro players do it better
outlet passes as stated
actual defense, now its 1/2 hearted play until the 4th quarter
me first offense, way to much 1 on 1, look at my shoes, tatoos blah blah
and yes as someone put the expansion has watered down the league so much
ps-i liked the fights only because things could happen and the teams go right back to playing, at some point in jordans career the calls were given to superstars and carrying, travelling etc started to happen, don't blame lebron its what stern wants

[sk7326]

Here are some relics of past decades.
boxing out, sounds simple but rarely done in the nba
pick & roll defense/offense, euro players do it better
outlet passes as stated
actual defense, now its 1/2 hearted play until the 4th quarter
me first offense, way to much 1 on 1, look at my shoes, tatoos blah blah
and yes as someone put the expansion has watered down the league so much
ps-i liked the fights only because things could happen and the teams go right back to playing, at some point in jordans career the calls were given to superstars and carrying, travelling etc started to happen, don't blame lebron its what stern wants

half hearted defense = watch playoff games before the 4th quarter - IN THE 1980s ...

pick and roll defense is better in Europe because of the rules, Europeans are allowed to stand in the lane in FIBA-land ... NBA it's actually pretty difficult - since the league kind of allows illegal picks now

[cornbreadsmart]

defense is way beter now than even in the 1980's. throw in the old vhs tapes. guards are gplaying 2 and 3 feet off their man half the time in the halfcourt.

[Celtics17]

Defense is probably stressed a lot more today then it used to be. However, that doesnt mean that teams of the past couldnt play defense better then todays teams if they wanted to. I watched the 86 Celtics team allow Jordan only about 5 points in the final 3 quarters of a game, and if I am not mistaken a deciding game. That was the game after he scored 63 although my memory could certainly be a little off on that. Can you think of another team that allowed Jordan only 5 points through the final 3 quarters of a playoff game? I doubt it.

[Redz]

The former Celtic who I'd love to see play in this era the most is McHale.  Just look at what Sheed can do on the post with one tenth the skills  (ok, maybe half).  McHale would score 30 a night on the right team.

[wahz]

regarding athleticism, TWO high school runners broke 4 minutes in the mile for the USA in the 1960's and it was around FOURTY YEARS before anyone did it again. Mantle was hitting 550 foot shots, Bob Feller was throwing over 102 mph, William Russell was barely trying and jumping 6'9" in the highs jump in HS, and Jim Brown, at his size and speed, was the best running back in the NFL and maybe ever. The marathon WR was 2:08 and change and that held for 30 years. We can talk about the long jump if you want.

Cowens, Nelson, Silas, Havlicek, White, Chaney, Westphal vs Perk, KG, Pierce, Ray, Rondo, Powe, Posey, House? IMHO and all in fun: Cowens would have had to handled KG, Silas would have dealt with Perk, Havlicek vs PP, while Chaney would have been glued to Ray and white would have just destroyed Rajon. They really would have killed them. They match up even better than the 80's Celtics would have, imho

[RAcker]

The former Celtic who I'd love to see play in this era the most is McHale.  Just look at what Sheed can do on the post with one tenth the skills  (ok, maybe half).  McHale would score 30 a night on the right team.

That's a good call, Redz.  Think of what McHale surrounded be 3 pt. shooters of today would look like for opposing defenses. Heck, McHale could normally get a good shot off with 2 or 3 defenders hanging on him anyway.

[Roy Hobbs]

Was thinking last night, as I watched Lee torch us, if he could be the starting center on a championship team. The best championship center comparison I could make was to our own Big Red, which got me thinking - could this be the starting lineup of a championship team:

M. Ellis
B. Roy
M. Williams
P. Milsap
D. Lee

So, if I'm hearing you right:

M. Ellis  --> JoJo White
B. Roy --> John Havlicek
M. Williams --> Don Nelson (or Don Chaney)
P. Milsap --> Paul Silas
D. Lee --> Dave Cowens

I don't see much of a comparison between most of those guys, honestly.  There's simply no good comparison in today's NBA to Cowens or Havlicek.  Cowens was a better defensive player than Lee, and a better rebounder, too.  The impact goes well beyond the stats, though.  The same thing with the difference between John Havlicek and Brandon Roy, or Paul Silas versus Paul Milsap (with Silas again being a much better defender).

I'm not sure who I'd compare Nelson / Chaney to in today's league.  I do know that JoJo played a much more under control and team-oriented game than Monta Ellis.

I think if you put the 73-74 Celtics into today's league, and gave them modern nutrition and weight-training, they'd be championship caliber.

[hankfinkel]

On top of everything mentioned about the skills of Cowens with post moves, rebounding, and defense - all true - he also had that foul line and top of the key jumper, and if he played in this era could have easily extended to 3-point range. And after he hit a couple and guys would run at him, he could put it to the floor and go right to the hoop.  It would not be quite as easy in today's game to do all of this, but how many guys in this league can both shoot from the outside and have a post game.  Then take a look at his assist numbers sometime, the guy was a very good passing big man as well.

He really had the complete game even as an undersized center.  Gave Kareen fits.

I don't think there is a good comparison to Cowens in today's game in terms of the combination of varied skills merged with such intensity and desire - except for probably KG who of course has so much greater length but is not as physical.  With the lack of depth in big men we've seen in the past decade, with guys like Brad Miller able to make all star teams, Cowens would be a perennial all star. 

[PLamb]

Was thinking last night, as I watched Lee torch us, if he could be the starting center on a championship team. The best championship center comparison I could make was to our own Big Red, which got me thinking - could this be the starting lineup of a championship team:

M. Ellis
B. Roy
M. Williams
P. Milsap
D. Lee

So, if I'm hearing you right:

M. Ellis  --> JoJo White
B. Roy --> John Havlicek
M. Williams --> Don Nelson (or Don Chaney)
P. Milsap --> Paul Silas
D. Lee --> Dave Cowens

I don't see much of a comparison between most of those guys, honestly.  There's simply no good comparison in today's NBA to Cowens or Havlicek.  Cowens was a better defensive player than Lee, and a better rebounder, too.  The impact goes well beyond the stats, though.  The same thing with the difference between John Havlicek and Brandon Roy, or Paul Silas versus Paul Milsap (with Silas again being a much better defender).

I'm not sure who I'd compare Nelson / Chaney to in today's league.  I do know that JoJo played a much more under control and team-oriented game than Monta Ellis.

I think if you put the 73-74 Celtics into today's league, and gave them modern nutrition and weight-training, they'd be championship caliber.

My team that would compare

Jo Jo White -> Brandon Roy but only if Roy became more PG oriented and didn't dominate the ball so much. O J Mayo might fit too if Mayo could guard like Kirk Hinrich

John Havlicek -> I just think the best comparison to Havlicek is Scottie Pippen

Don Chaney -> Shane Battier is the best I can come up with

Paul Silas -> This one is tough. Maybe Kenyon Martin but I know that's not right. Anthony Mason seems to me to fit in about right if the younger crowd can remember Mason. If you toughened and bulked up Gerald Wallace and gave him a post game then maybe him.

Dave Cowens -> The only person I can think of in the current NBA that does or can do what Cowens did is Tim Duncan but even that isn't right

[Rondo_is_better]

There is not a player in the current NBA that can be fairly compared to Dave Cowens

Not one

Not one player in the current NBA mixes the toughness, rebounding ability, tenacity, low post offensive moves, defensive ability and ability to run the break that Cowens had

And he's right about running current teams out of the building

For all the weight lifting and diet science and possible PEDs and size and strength of today's NBA players, the players of the 70's, especially those in fast break systems like the Celtics had, had such superior cardio-vascular training and ability it's comical

The walk it up pacing and half court offenses of today would be blitzed by those teams ability to run, run, run, run every moment of the game

Today's teams would be sucking oxygen by mid way through the third quarter

And in my day, we had to walk uphill BOTH WAYS to get to school.