Is Pierce a Top 5 All Time Celtic?

[footey]

Having grown up seeing the Celtics since the late 60's, and therefore nearly all of John Havlicek's career, I believe that Pierce, in terms of a career with the Celtics, will have exceeded Hondo's.  It is unfair to compare their championships; Havlicek early on was a small cog, and in the 70's, while the team leader, had much support from team-mates, especially Jo Jo and Cowens. My ranking:

1. Russell
2. Bird
3. Cousy
4. Pierce
5. Havlicek

[PLamb]

Having grown up seeing the Celtics since the late 60's, and therefore nearly all of John Havlicek's career, I believe that Pierce, in terms of a career with the Celtics, will have exceeded Hondo's.  It is unfair to compare their championships; Havlicek early on was a small cog, and in the 70's, while the team leader, had much support from team-mates, especially Jo Jo and Cowens. My ranking:

1. Russell
2. Bird
3. Cousy
4. Pierce
5. Havlicek

I'll have to agree to disagree with this

Pierce was never the all-around two way player Hondo was from day one, never

[slamtheking]

If i was to make a workable team of Celtics greats the roster would probably look like this:

PG. Bob Cousy
SG. John Havlicek
SF. Larry Bird
PF. Kevin McHale
C.  Bill Russell
 
6th. Paul Pierce
7th. Robert Parish
8th. Sam Jones
9th. Dennis Johnson
10th. Dave Cowens
11th. Tommy Heinsohn
12th. Bill Sharman

Seriously?  DJ over Cowens, Heinsohn and Sharman who were for the most part lifelong C's.  You're kidding right?

DJ's legacy on the C's is a bit overblown.  Solidified the PG spot after Tiny but his best years were well behind him by the time he got here.

[tenn_smoothie]

i'll never understand the way that Dave Cowens is under-valued and underappreciated by Celtic fans.

maybe it's the young fan who wasn't around in the 70's or maybe just the very common tendency to over-rate the talents of the current players.

for me, dave cowens is one of the 3 most important celtics of all time - easy choice, though havlicek is a close 4th.

there are three Celtics around who championship teams were built before this current group - russell, cowens and bird. they are also the three celtics who have won league MVP's. for me, those are the three hubs of the Celtics dynasty.

now we have a 4th championship group, though this team is a little different than the main three teams that won muti-titles. i look at paul pierce more in the same light as havlicek and kevin garnett in the same role as cowens. the big difference, of course, being the number of seasons spent as a Celtic.

so i put paul pierce in the top 10 certainly, but i have a hard time putting him in that 5th slot behind russell, bird, cowens and havlicek because of his maturity issues and the fact that he didn't win anything at all until garnett arrived.

[Junkyard Dawg]

I was 7 when Bird retired, and I'll be the first to admit I'm biased by age but for me, and I hope for many of the younger generation, Pierce is a top 5 celtic and unquestionably so if he wins another ring.

I got all the respect in the world for the older generation.  But remember, tommy heinsohn who has been with the celtics organization in some capacity for part of what, 6 decades?  he heaps praise on pierce like no other celtic... just sayin.

I'd also say if this group wins another ring KG is gonna be top 10.  but we'll save that for another thread.

[TitleMaster]

Can I ask one question... what made Cousy so great?

All and all, everything I'd heard is that he was a great ball handler and passer. In essence, when he retired at the end of Hondo's rookie season, it didn't have any effect on the Celtics performance for their subsequent championship seasons.

Wouldn't that, in effect, make him even less prominent than let's say, the combo guards of JoJo and DJ?

[xmuscularghandix]

Can I ask one question... what made Cousy so great?

All and all, everything I'd heard is that he was a great ball handler and passer. In essence, when he retired at the end of Hondo's rookie season, it didn't have any effect on the Celtics performance for their subsequent championship seasons.

Wouldn't that, in effect, make him even less prominent than let's say, the combo guards of JoJo and DJ?

Bob Cousy was the MVP of the league the year of their first championship, he averaged 20pts, 7ast, 5reb. And BTW bounce passes didn't count as assists. If just so happens that another unbelievable HOF player was just waiting in the wings.

[Brickowski]

No.

[RonnieG]

Not enough Tommy love ITT

[fairweatherfan]

No, but he's definitely a Top 10.  Here's my attempt (players only, no extra credit for coaching, GMing, etc).

1. Bill Russell
2. Larry Bird
3. John Havlicek
4. Bob Cousy
5. Kevin McHale
6. Sam Jones
7. Paul Pierce
8. Dave Cowens
9. Robert Parish
10 + 10a. Bill Sharman + Tommy Heinsohn

[kenmaine]

No, but he's definitely a Top 10.  Here's my attempt (players only, no extra credit for coaching, GMing, etc).

1. Bill Russell
2. Larry Bird
3. John Havlicek
4. Bob Cousy
5. Kevin McHale
6. Sam Jones
7. Paul Pierce
8. Dave Cowens
9. Robert Parish
10 + 10a. Bill Sharman + Tommy Heinsohn

I think you nailed it. Of course, most of us never got to watch the older players that much(until the 70's they were hardly ever on TV), so I'm not sure about Sam Jones being #6, but I really didn't see him enough to be sure.

But what a list- Thank you Red!

[Redz]

Can I ask one question... what made Cousy so great?

All and all, everything I'd heard is that he was a great ball handler and passer. In essence, when he retired at the end of Hondo's rookie season, it didn't have any effect on the Celtics performance for their subsequent championship seasons.

Wouldn't that, in effect, make him even less prominent than let's say, the combo guards of JoJo and DJ?

He changed the way the position was played, and therefore the game.  He was the first cog in the wheel that brought the Celtics some respectability in the league, and eventually a dynasty.  He was clutch.  He was a competitor.  He was COOZ!

[housecall]

Danny Ainge made a statement on weei radio yesterday when asked by the Big Show where would he place Pierce on the Celtics list of great players made me rethink where i placed him in my mind.I first thought he was in the top 10 but not necessarily in the top 5 but now i have to say,i would put McHale#5A.and Pierce#5B...why? because as Ainge says,if Paul had played along side players like Bird and Parish he would definitely have a couple more championships on his resume.     

[More Banners]

i'll never understand the way that Dave Cowens is under-valued and underappreciated by Celtic fans.

maybe it's the young fan who wasn't around in the 70's or maybe just the very common tendency to over-rate the talents of the current players.

for me, dave cowens is one of the 3 most important celtics of all time - easy choice, though havlicek is a close 4th.

there are three Celtics around who championship teams were built before this current group - russell, cowens and bird. they are also the three celtics who have won league MVP's. for me, those are the three hubs of the Celtics dynasty.

now we have a 4th championship group, though this team is a little different than the main three teams that won muti-titles. i look at paul pierce more in the same light as havlicek and kevin garnett in the same role as cowens. the big difference, of course, being the number of seasons spent as a Celtic.

so i put paul pierce in the top 10 certainly, but i have a hard time putting him in that 5th slot behind russell, bird, cowens and havlicek because of his maturity issues and the fact that he didn't win anything at all until garnett arrived.

Nice post, and well thought out.

Pierce...nowhere near top-5 all time.  Scoring and being a good player isn't enough to crack top 20 in this franchise. 

Even if we excuse the huge matter of not winning, his complete immaturity (bandage face, etc.) and lack of leadership take him out of consideration.  He may be the captain and all, but only by seniority.  He's the captain only because KG lets him be out of respect for having been in green longer.  KG is the leader, and Ray comes next.  Perk has consistently shown more maturity and work ethic, and consequently is a stronger leader than PP.  Teams led by PP didn't always play with heart; even Toine was the leader in 2002, even though Paul was the better player.

Does he make those around him better?  Not that much.  He has never been all that good at passing out of double teams and/or moving the ball, until 2007/8, when he was hardly doubled.

PP is a good wing player, maybe even top-5 in the league in his prime, but didn't do anything to change the position or the game, either.  He's got talent in abundance, especially in scoring, but that's it.

I guess those are my criteria:  Talent, obviously, but leading teams with heart that compete

My rankings:

Russell
Bird
Havlicek
Cousy
Cowens
Jo Jo
McHale
Sam Jones
Don Nelson
Max

Paul...somewhere further down.

Q:  Where does Reggie Lewis rank?

[BASS_THUMPER]

kinda hard to make that call..

he is not done yet..he could to bigger better thangs or fall way off...

rite now and he been runnin with us for a while i'll give him the 6th man spot in repect of the greats in the past..

top ten but not top 5..