Author Topic: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"  (Read 12716 times)

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Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2009, 09:20:50 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Players in general shouldn't be judged on titles, but great players should.  If you want to be considered a great player, you've got to accept that you'll be judged partly on the rings you've won.

I agree with this. I think if you are viewed as great enough, and a great teammate, other good players will want to come to play on your team, and you will win titles. Also, you should be able to make players around you better, if not, you are not a great player. Ewing, Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Drexler, were all very good, but not great. They certainly had their chances and had some pretty solid teams, and yet they could not come up big to lead their teams to titles. Nash had his chances too, and played with some very talented lineups, yet he was not great enough to min it all even in a period when the league was pretty weak IMO. Olajuwon on the other hand, totally dominated the league for two years when he stepped up his game. Who on that team was so good that they made it easy for him...Cassell and Horry, please. Hakeem was the man for two years, and was great, and got the rings to show it.
I strongly disagree that Barkley, Stockton and Malone were not great.

If Jordan doesn't retire the first time, Hakeem isn't a great player since the Bulls win 8 straight?

No non-Celtics were great players during Russell's run since he the Celts won all the championships?

I agree that Jordan's drive made him special and factored in strongly in his championships, but there are too many variables to weigh championships as an absolute criteria. It is one of many criteria.

Would KG have been a lesser player if he wasn't traded by Minny? Is he more "great" because he was traded? I find that absurd.

Jordan's offensive foul jumper against Russell means that Stockton and Malone aren't great? That is a highly questionable standard.

I kind of took his post as meaning the greatest of the great, not just excellent players that are in the hall of fame. While there are definitely flaws in the argument, I tend to agree that the greatest players should at some point find a way to win a championship, even if it's when they are no longer the best player on their team. I do think that KG coming to Boston and winning a title here did make him a better player in a lot of people's eyes, so yes, he technically would have been a 'lesser' player had he never come to Boston. Being able to perform under pressure is important in deciding who is the greatest, but it's not the only factor (and there are exceptions)...and I guess that is Nash's argument. It should just be someone else making it...
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 09:41:15 PM by jambr380 »

Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2009, 09:57:34 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
   
FGA      eFG%      FTA     iFG     Reb     Ast     T/O       Blk      PF       Pts      PER*
19.0      0.485      4.7      21%     5.0      8.9      2.9      0.3      3.7      22.5      18.2   

Also, here are the Opp. PER numbers for Rajon Rondo:

FGA      eFG%      FTA     iFG     Reb     Ast     T/O       Blk      PF       Pts      PER*
15.5      0.474      4.5      28%     4.0      7.9      3.7      0.3      4.0      18.7      16.5

And for Chris Paul:

FGA      eFG%      FTA     iFG     Reb     Ast     T/O       Blk      PF       Pts      PER*
15.3      0.471      4.0      25%     4.9      7.3      2.9      0.2      4.6      17.6      17.2 

While Nash is behind both players, his Opp. PER isn't that far behind either player, nor are his points allowed per 48 minutes or eFG% allowed.  While Nash isn't good defensively, it's not like he gets torched on a nightly basis; if he did, I would imagine that it would reflect more in the statistics.
You seem to be stuck on PER and yet that is the last of the stats I would be looking at because, as you know, I am not the largest Hollinger stat fan in the world. But Roy, Nash was giving up and average of over 22 points per 48 minutes. That's a huge number. He was being out rebounded and had a 1.75/1 turnover/turnover against ratio. He also gave up nearly 9 assists per 40 and giving up 19 FGA per 48. All these numbers when taken into a basketball interpretation point to a really bad PG who teams went after because he couldn't force turnovers and because he was turnover prone and because they could get shots off against him and given the amount of points scored were fairly successful at it.

He scored and was responsible through assists for a large portion of his team's offense but he personally gave up as much as he created and I would counter that it was because of his team mates that his defensive numbers when he came off the floor weren't a lot worse. Shaq and Amare and Hill and Barnes are decent defensive players that probably hid a lot of his deficiencies.

And if you are going to look at Rondo's and Paul's competition at least compare it to what they also did:

Rondo's 48-Minute Production by Position
FGA      eFG%     FTA      iFG     Reb      Ast      T/O       Blk      PF      Pts       PER*
13.8      0.514      4.9      56%     7.6      12.0      3.8      0.2      3.5      17.3      21.0

Rondo's Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
FGA      eFG%      FTA     iFG     Reb     Ast     T/O       Blk      PF       Pts      PER*
15.5      0.474      4.5      28%     4.0      7.9      3.7      0.3      4.0      18.7      16.5


Paul's 48-Minute Production by Position
FGA      eFG%     FTA      iFG     Reb      Ast      T/O       Blk      PF      Pts
20.1      0.528      8.4      26%     6.9      13.7      3.7      0.2      3.4      28.5      33.5 

Paul's Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
FGA      eFG%      FTA     iFG     Reb     Ast     T/O       Blk      PF       Pts      PER*
15.3      0.471      4.0      25%     4.9      7.3      2.9      0.2      4.6      17.6      17.2

As can be seen, Paul dominated his opponent being his team's focal point offensively, much like Nash. Paul outscored his opponent by over 16 points per 48 minutes and out rebounded his man and out assisted his man by nearly double. Also given that Paul's opponents shot nearly 25% less shots than Nash's shows that team didn't go at Paul.

As for Rondo, he didn't become the focal point or higher scoring option for his team until nearly March when it became clear that KG wasn't coming back. Even so it can be clearly seen that teams did not like to go at him defensively through his FGA against and because he turned over his opponent a lot more than than Nash. If Rondo was better than a 4th scoring option for most of the year my guess is his dominance would have shown through as well.

Okay, maybe just average is too strong a word to describe Nash. He is definitely in the upper third of the starting PG's in the league because the system he is in and his great shooting and passing are such a lift. But numbers show he's not a good defender and observation shows he's even worse than the numbers show. he is still a very good PG but people give him a bit of a ride because of his offense and flashiness and always seem to disregard his porous defense.


Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2009, 10:02:42 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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BTW, tp, great debate as always.

Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2009, 10:33:40 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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I think the really great players just have a way of winning. Sure, basketball is a team sport and you will not win a title without great teammtes that collectively form a great team but it seems like the truly great ones accomplish this more often. Is Kevin McHale a better player then Karl Malone because he won titles? I say he was just a better player period, titles or no. But, guys like Larry, Russ, Magic, Kareem, MJ just know how to win. I say if you switch MJ for Drexler on the Portland team in the finals that Portland wins with MJ. Swicth Lary and Dominique in the series with Atlanta and I say Atalanta wins. Truly great players just know how to win and it is mental more then anything else.

Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2009, 12:16:19 AM »

Offline drza44

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Like any other measure of "greatness", I think that there should be some amount of thought put in before making the judgment...not every situation is created equal. 

In the case of Nash yes, he's a great player, but he has played with some outstanding talent in his career.  He played several years with a prime Dirk Nowitzki, several years with a prime Amare Stoudemire/Shawn Marion, and then 2 halfs of a season with a prime Stoudemire/post-prime Shaq combo...and each of those teams had good secondary players as well (Mike Finley, Nick Van Exel, Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, young Joe Johnson, etc.).  Yes, maybe Nash had some hard luck in a few situations, but for the most part he has had the talent around him that an inner circle All-time great should have been able to pull out a title or two.

Compare that with KG, as many in this thread have...before he came to Boston, the best player that he had played with for at least one full healthy season was who...Wally Szczerbiak?  19 year-old Stephon Marbury?  Post knee-surgery/breaking down Terrell Brandon?  And bad luck?  KG has had two teammates die, one of whom was his best friend that died leaving KG's birthday party.  KG had to deal with Marbury defecting, Brandon's knees going, Billups being let go before he could blossom, the Wolves losing multiple #1 draft picks due to management incompetence, and the ONE chance they had to win a title ALL of the PGs on the roster got hurt.  Now THAT is bad luck. 

So yeah, a championship isn't a rubber stamp for greatness.  But if you are going to be in the "greatest" list and you have a legit opportunity to win a title multiple times, then maybe failing to win repeatedly works against you. 

Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2009, 03:55:42 AM »

Offline LB3533

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See another big quote thrown around is this:

Tim Duncan is the greatest NBA Power Forward of all time!

Why is this quote even said?

Because the dude has 4 championship rings.

But my qualm is what do rings have anything to do with being the best or greatest Power Forward.

How does one equate or try to equate winning team championships with playing an individual position?

I would argue that pound for pound and inch for inch, Charles Barkley was the greatest PF. This guy was 6 foot 4 at best? (listed at 6 foot 6) He nearly averaged 12 boards per game for his career with the lack of height and not that long of a wing span. He led the league in rebounding once, grabbed 900+ boards 5 straight seasons and averaged over 10+ rebounds for 15 straight seasons. (Duncan is on 12 straight seasons, but he is also 7 feet)

People would argue that Karl Malone is the greatest Power Forward.

KG can throw his ticket into the ring as well and as far as I am concerned the greatest PF in our contemporary time is KG, not Tim Duncan.

In the end though, Larry Bird is the greatest Forward in NBA history so PF/SF argument is moot and really pointless.

Go Larry!

Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2009, 08:35:22 AM »

Offline drza44

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See another big quote thrown around is this:

Tim Duncan is the greatest NBA Power Forward of all time!

Why is this quote even said?

Because the dude has 4 championship rings.

But my qualm is what do rings have anything to do with being the best or greatest Power Forward.

How does one equate or try to equate winning team championships with playing an individual position?

I would argue that pound for pound and inch for inch, Charles Barkley was the greatest PF. This guy was 6 foot 4 at best? (listed at 6 foot 6) He nearly averaged 12 boards per game for his career with the lack of height and not that long of a wing span. He led the league in rebounding once, grabbed 900+ boards 5 straight seasons and averaged over 10+ rebounds for 15 straight seasons. (Duncan is on 12 straight seasons, but he is also 7 feet)

People would argue that Karl Malone is the greatest Power Forward.

KG can throw his ticket into the ring as well and as far as I am concerned the greatest PF in our contemporary time is KG, not Tim Duncan.

In the end though, Larry Bird is the greatest Forward in NBA history so PF/SF argument is moot and really pointless.


Go Larry!

Quick trivia question: Who are the only two forwards since the NBA/ABA merger to win an NBA title, NBA MVP award, and an Olympic gold medal?

I'll give you a hint, they are also known as #33 and #5 in green.

Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2009, 08:35:47 AM »

Offline BrickJames

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"People would argue Karl Malone"

Yeah I mean being #2 on the all-time scoring list isn't an accomplishment or anything  ::)

Seriously though, Nash has a point, but one needs to define "greatness".  Is it the same as "skill" or even "talent"?

By most accounts being "great" has a team connotation to it.  As such, people use rings as a barometer.

Is it true that some players are over-rated due to having rings from being on teams who were 'great' relative to their competition?  Absolutely.  Are there others who don't get the respect/recognition due to getting the short end of the stick when it comes to their team membership?  True as well.

But it is so hard to have an object view at greatness. I don't know what context Nash was coming from, but this sounds like sour grapes.  I am a fan of Steve's as much as the next guy, but for a guy who has not one - but two- MVPs that he doesn't really deserve, he should be keeping his mouth shut.
God bless and good night!


Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2009, 08:40:07 AM »

Offline BrickJames

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to the OP - Nash never said "player's should be judged on titles", so you are misleading the entire community by putting that in quotes.

What he did say (and I paraphrase) is that titles aren't the be-all-and-end-all, that players should not judge *themselves* if they are unable to win one.  Winning one is great, and should be celebrated, but players should not get down on themselves if they don't.

Paints it in a little bit of a different light.
God bless and good night!


Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2009, 09:55:05 AM »

Offline cornbreadsmart

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nash has been at times one of the best offensive points i've ever seen. he's definitely one of the WORST defensive points i've ever seen too. he's horrendous at half of the game. he's a hall of famer but he's no john stockton.

Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2009, 09:57:52 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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Somehow I don't think Nash says this had he won a title.
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2009, 10:03:28 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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See another big quote thrown around is this:

Tim Duncan is the greatest NBA Power Forward of all time!

Why is this quote even said?

Because the dude has 4 championship rings.

But my qualm is what do rings have anything to do with being the best or greatest Power Forward.

How does one equate or try to equate winning team championships with playing an individual position?

I would argue that pound for pound and inch for inch, Charles Barkley was the greatest PF. This guy was 6 foot 4 at best? (listed at 6 foot 6) He nearly averaged 12 boards per game for his career with the lack of height and not that long of a wing span. He led the league in rebounding once, grabbed 900+ boards 5 straight seasons and averaged over 10+ rebounds for 15 straight seasons. (Duncan is on 12 straight seasons, but he is also 7 feet)

People would argue that Karl Malone is the greatest Power Forward.

KG can throw his ticket into the ring as well and as far as I am concerned the greatest PF in our contemporary time is KG, not Tim Duncan.

In the end though, Larry Bird is the greatest Forward in NBA history so PF/SF argument is moot and really pointless.

Go Larry!

I don't think it's off-base to call Duncan the best PF all-time, although in his later years he transitioned into more of a center.  To me, greatness is some combination of statistics, defense and winning.  When you weigh all three of those categories, I think Duncan is at the top.  Malone and Barkley may have been slightly better offensive players, but they can't touch Duncan in terms of defense or winning.

If I was picking a PF to build a team around, though, I'd still take Kevin McHale.  The only other player I've ever seen with his combination of post moves and defense was Hakeem.

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Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2009, 10:07:15 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Yeah, i agree.  Steve Nash's career shouldn't be lessened because he didn't and probably won't win any championships.  If he had been on a contender he definitely could have lifted them to a championship.  His two MVPs aren't meaningless because he never won a title.

No, but they are two of the most undeserved, least meaningfull MVP awards ever given out.

  Dirk disagrees.

Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2009, 10:27:42 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Yeah, i agree.  Steve Nash's career shouldn't be lessened because he didn't and probably won't win any championships.  If he had been on a contender he definitely could have lifted them to a championship.  His two MVPs aren't meaningless because he never won a title.

No, but they are two of the most undeserved, least meaningfull MVP awards ever given out.

  Dirk disagrees.
LOL, good one.

Re: Steve Nash: "Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles"
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2009, 12:10:08 PM »

Offline ToppersBsktball10

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True a player should not be rejected from the Hall Of Fame without a title.