Author Topic: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?  (Read 8007 times)

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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2019, 04:23:22 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Why would someone ask a simple question and then spend 4 pages arguing against consensus opinion.

Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2019, 04:40:01 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Both were incredible players.

Can anyone here imagine either of these two in TODAY's NBA? Especially David?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18

Hakeem had a VAST array of low post moves - like McHale and Duncan.

I used to say Hakeem exclusively and while I still say Hakeem David was awfully close.

Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #62 on: April 09, 2019, 04:44:36 PM »

Offline chicagoceltic

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David Robinson is one of my favorite non-Celtics of all time.  That being said, Hakeem was the better player.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2019, 04:50:20 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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Why would someone ask a simple question and then spend 4 pages arguing against consensus opinion.

That's how society works nowadays


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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2019, 05:34:29 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I trade Al for either one  ;)

Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #65 on: April 09, 2019, 05:47:35 PM »

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I trade Al for either one  ;)

People won't give up both Tatum & Brown for Olajuwon.


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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #66 on: April 09, 2019, 06:00:10 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Quote
Drexler was imho the team's best player during the playoffs for that second championship and Horry was arguably almost as important as Hakeem in that run.

Quote
You might want to review just how well Horry played during those playoffs.   No one is saying he is anywhere within a million miles as great a player as Olajuwon was.   But in that second title playoff run, Horry played some of the best basketball of his own career.  In particular he shot really well.  He posted a red-hot 59.2% scoring efficiency in those playoffs.   Hakeem in turn played well, but by his own standards that was not his most dominant playoffs.  He played a ton of minutes and had huge USG, but his production was a good-but-not-great .143 WS/48.  Almost all of his relevant rates and efficiencies in those playoffs were below his career playoff averages.

Above is a great example of the over-use of advanced stats.

1995 Playoff Stats:

Hakeem:  33.0 points / 10.3 rebounds / 4.5 assists / 2.8 blocks / 1.2 steals / .533 eFG%

Horry:  13.1 points / 7.0 rebounds / 3.5 assists / 1.2 blocks / 1.5 steals / .550 eFG%

Anybody who looks at that those numbers and sees similar production -- or "importance" -- has a fundamental misunderstanding of basketball.  Generally, scoring about 20 more points on similar efficiency in only four more minutes of action is a pretty good indicator who the more productive player is.  If WS/48 suggests those two players are even, it's a broken metric.

Hakeem scored massively more because he had gigantic USG -- 35%.   He was used to attempt to score on over a third of their possessions.  But the efficiency of his utilization, while still good, wasn't as good as he was in other playoff runs.  That's what the metric is telling us.  As johnnygreen points out, this was largely due to double teams.   For which Horry benefited and did his job by making shots.

Basketball is a team game and while Horry doesn't get those open looks without Hakeem drawing those double teams, those points aren't scored on those possessions without Horry making those shots.

Ultimately, this is just a red-herring and straw-manning (and some back-handed insults for free).  I didn't say Horry was the equal to Hakeem.  Just pointing out that his performance was critically important in that playoff run.   

Your assertion that Hakeem carried a team of nobodies to a title all by himself just doesn't hold up.   Clyde Drexler was on that team.   Last I checked he was in the HOF.  And he played fantastic.

Hakeem took by far the biggest chunk of shots in that playoff run, but the next five guys in utilization, Drexler, Horry, Smith, Elie and Cassell all scored at elite efficiencies between 58.7% - 64.3% TS.  Those 5 combined for a unstoppable force of scoring with a TS% of 59.9% on 53.8 scoring attempts per game.  The shooting of those 5 guys carried that team to a playoff TS% of 58.0%.   

For comparison, last year's Warriors, whom everyone thinks of as a historic offensive juggernaut had a team playoff TS% of 58.1%.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #67 on: April 09, 2019, 06:51:06 PM »

Offline Androslav

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who was better?

The better guy or the worse guy?

I think that the better guy was better.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #68 on: April 09, 2019, 07:14:02 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I read the first 2.5-3 pages.

Somebody, you asked a question and got a near unanimous answer but argue the whole time against the consensus. If you just wanted to argue Robinson being better, just say so, make your case and don't ask the question.

Also, regarding people who just watch some full games and highlights packages, you can't get the fullness of a player's game that way. Getting to watch tons of games over 15 years and getting to watch 15 years of Sportscenter highlights of players every night is a lot better way to form an informed decision. Heck, it's why recruiting players in NCAA ball and drafting them to pro teams can be such a crap shoot. It's because you are only getting glimpses of their total game.

All that said, Hakeem was better. Not head and shoulders better, but better. But you are talking about the differences between two of the greatest centers ever, so it's no insult on Robinson to say he isn't as good a player as Hakeem. Their career numbers are almost identical. I think Hakeem was elite longer and an overall more elite defender and that's where he separates himself from the Admiral. Longevity of greatness matters.

Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #69 on: April 09, 2019, 07:34:21 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Why would someone ask a simple question and then spend 4 pages arguing against consensus opinion.

That's how society works nowadays
Yeah got a bit carried away there. It's probably because I believe that David deserves more recognition than he's getting, while Hakeem's getting romanticized a bit too much.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #70 on: April 09, 2019, 07:36:57 PM »

Offline Somebody

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I read the first 2.5-3 pages.

Somebody, you asked a question and got a near unanimous answer but argue the whole time against the consensus. If you just wanted to argue Robinson being better, just say so, make your case and don't ask the question.

Also, regarding people who just watch some full games and highlights packages, you can't get the fullness of a player's game that way. Getting to watch tons of games over 15 years and getting to watch 15 years of Sportscenter highlights of players every night is a lot better way to form an informed decision. Heck, it's why recruiting players in NCAA ball and drafting them to pro teams can be such a crap shoot. It's because you are only getting glimpses of their total game.

All that said, Hakeem was better. Not head and shoulders better, but better. But you are talking about the differences between two of the greatest centers ever, so it's no insult on Robinson to say he isn't as good a player as Hakeem. Their career numbers are almost identical. I think Hakeem was elite longer and an overall more elite defender and that's where he separates himself from the Admiral. Longevity of greatness matters.
Great post and appreciate the input! As I said above I probably responded a bit too fervently as some guys were talking like it wasn't close lol.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #71 on: April 09, 2019, 07:41:26 PM »

Offline Somebody

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I trade Al for either one  ;)

People won't give up both Tatum & Brown for Olajuwon.
Haha I'd rather trade for Robinson, his skillset would fit better nowadays with illgeal defense allowed. TP for the joke though.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson: who was better?
« Reply #72 on: April 09, 2019, 07:47:14 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Ultimately, this is just a red-herring and straw-manning (and some back-handed insults for free).  I didn't say Horry was the equal to Hakeem. 

Here's what you said:

Quote
Drexler was imho the team's best player during the playoffs for that second championship and Horry was arguably almost as important as Hakeem in that run

"Almost as important" as Hakeem seems like you're elevating Horry well beyond what any rational person would argue.

Quote
Your assertion that Hakeem carried a team of nobodies to a title all by himself just doesn't hold up.   Clyde Drexler was on that team.   Last I checked he was in the HOF.  And he played fantastic.

Erm...  Drexler wasn't on the first title team.  And, I said a team full of role players, which is not the equivalent to a team full of nobodies.  Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Robert Horry, Kenny Smith, Sam Cassell, Mario Elie, and Carl Herrera.  Which one of them isn't a role player?


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