Ok so you guys are saying if you're starting an all-time team MJ is your top choice?
Yes.
You're also saying that if you trade MJ for Bill Russell or even Bird for that matter MJ's new team gets better and the other guy's gets worse?
Maybe, it depends which player MJ and Russell/Bird is replacing on the new team, and which player is replacing them. All else being equal, yes.
You're saying MJ's Bulls beat the 80's Celts, Lakers, and Pistons.
No - I'm saying if you give MJ the same supporting cast as the other individuals in the discussion, the team will more often than not be better. There may be some variability here as some great teams already had excellent SGs, so the upgrade from the original SG to MJ might not be as big as the downgrade from Larry/Magic/whoever to whoever would take their spot. But overall, he's better.
Yeah I don't see it. He couldn't shoot that great the first half of his career. It took about 8 years for his teams to get good, whereas Magic's and Larry's became championship caliber almost immediately and I think even Kareem's Bucks.
Larry did turn the team around, but the Lakers were already good when Magic got there (47-35 and lost in the conference semis the year before) - they got that pick from I think Utah in an earlier trade. Jordan started with a horrible supporting cast (27-55 the year before) and was a much more selfish player earlier in his career (partly why I call him the best individual and not the best team player ever). He didn't turn around the team like Larry did but did immediately make them a playoff team that improved every year he was there until they were winning titles.
Rodman was basically the greatest rebounder ever and the only guy I ever saw that stopped Shaq straight up and he just happened to be on MJ's last three teams with the Bulls.
Rodman was the greatest modern rebounder ever, but put his numbers up against Russell or Wilt's and it's not even close. And Jordan won 3 titles before he got there, and might've had more if not for Retirement #1. Jordan is the only all-time great to win multiple titles without a dominant big.
Bill Russell is like 27-0 in win or go home games with more rings. Doesn't that automatically make MJ #2 at least?
No, it makes Bill the greatest winner of all-time (and Bill's teams lost 2 elimination games, so I don't think that stat is right).
Russell also won his titles in an 8-14 team league, and Jordan won his with ~27. I love Bill, but he had a greater team than MJ around him in a much smaller league. Bill won with Cousy, Sharman, Havlicek, Tommy, KC, etc etc, and MJ won with Pippen, a Hall of Very Good PF (Grant/Rodman) some undersized spot shooter PGs, a series of interchangeable below-average centers, and, except for Kukoc in the 2nd 3peat, some of the worst benches in championship history.
