Why were the Lakers able to shut down the Heat but the C's could not?

[tenn_smoothie]

Heat against Lakers:

36.5% 3PT%, .534 eFG%, 11.0 turnovers

Heat against Celtics:

32.3% 3PT%, .526 eFG%, 11.0 turnovers

Well, Bam was injured, and had bigger players defending him.

I didn’t watch a single minute of the series, but my guess is that the Lakers did a better job cutting off Herro’s ability to drive inside.

We don't have the physical horsepower to win a title with this team. I believe we are 2-3 players away from being a serious annual contender - upgrade in the post, knock-down shooter and possibly a playmaking point guard.

Just seems Danny & Brad only want to play one way or die trying. They continue to view the Celtics as the new Golden State. Sorry Danny, our shooters are not even close to Curry and Thompson. A lot of teams had to lose together on their way to winning titles (Warriors are a perfect example). Hoping the Celtics progression works out the same, but we need some size !!!!

I am sickened by the Lakers finally tying our championship record and them being led by mercenary Lebron makes it even worse. I also refused to watch one minute of the finals. Too painful and I couldn't take watching Lebron running around looking for the nearest camera.

[jambr380]

Dragic tore his plantar fascia in the 1st half of game 1.  Dragic gave the Celts fits and would have been a problem for the Lakers since they lack guard defenders.

Adebayo was never the same after straining his neck / shoulder, also in the 1st half of game 1.  He missed Game 2.  He was the best player in the ECF so that was a huge factor in the series.

On top of that, having a guy like Davis inside makes a huge difference when you're going against a team with (a) a big like Bam and (b) a star that likes to attack the hoop like Jimmy.


I do think if you play this series over again with both teams healthy, the Heat at least push it to 7, whether they win it or not.

Injuries certainly played a major factor in both series. Give us a healthy Hayward and take Dragic away from the Heat, we likely win in 5 or 6. Give the Heat a healthy Bam and Dragic and remove AD and the Heat are the ones celebrating a championship.

The stars aligned for the Lakers this year. They didn't have to face the Clippers and two of the Heat's best players were injured in game 1 of the Finals. Everybody hoots and hollers about the Raptors last season, but a healthy Warriors team likely takes them down handily. No KD and Klay kind-of changes the strategy for a team.

tl:dr - injury luck

[PhoSita]

tl:dr - injury luck

Yeah, the way I look at it is that all season long there were three teams with a better than puncher's chance at the title.

Two of them imploded in the second round, the remaining one won the title.

Some seasons that's how it goes.

[LakersFan_33]

Hello, you can see by my username which team I'm a fan of, but I'm not here to gloat. I posted here when my team was crap.

Ultimately, it came down Lebron and AD basically guaranteeing about 60 points per night, plus Rondo performing. From there, it just came down to whether the role players could give you anything. Typically, throughout the season and playoffs, whenever the role players made three's (or just otherwise performed), it was a likely win.

Also, avoiding a prime Clippers team / Bucks team and playing the Heat (with injuries) helped. I'm honest enough to admit it. With that said, teams do benefit from injuries all the time - Look at Toronto, or look at GS when they played Lebron's Cavs with all their injured players.

[footey]

Heat against Lakers:

36.5% 3PT%, .534 eFG%, 11.0 turnovers

Heat against Celtics:

32.3% 3PT%, .526 eFG%, 11.0 turnovers

I don’t think it was the Lakers defense that was the difference maker.  The Heat shot worse against us, and we forced an equal number of turnovers.

The Lakers are simply better than us on offense.

pretty strong evidence.  What were the offensive comparisons between the Celts and Lakers I wonder?

[footey]

The Lakers are just a better team with the two best players in every series they played this year.

That said, Duncan Robinson had basically the exact same TS% in both series.  Bam was injured and banged up against the Lakers, but was still pretty good against the Lakers.  Herro performed worse, but he also went from the bench to starting.  Dragic being out altered Herro's role a great deal.  It isn't rocket science.

Bam was nowhere nearly as good vs Lakers. Combination of health, and just facing a bigger stronger lineup. Bam looked small at times vs Lakers, if that makes any sense.

[Ogaju]

The Lakers are just a better team with the two best players in every series they played this year.

That said, Duncan Robinson had basically the exact same TS% in both series.  Bam was injured and banged up against the Lakers, but was still pretty good against the Lakers.  Herro performed worse, but he also went from the bench to starting.  Dragic being out altered Herro's role a great deal.  It isn't rocket science.

Bam was nowhere nearly as good vs Lakers. Combination of health, and just facing a bigger stronger lineup. Bam looked small at times vs Lakers, if that makes any sense.

Yeah he was small. WE NEED BIGS!!!

[The Oracle]

In approximately 70 minutes the combination of Davis/Howard had a defensive rating of 126.3. 

In approximately 160 minutes Davis was on the floor without Howard the Lakers defensive rating was 98.4.

In approximately 59 minutes that Davis was off the floor the Lakers defensive rating was 123.9.

Looking at the above the Heat were quite successful against all lineups that did not have Anthony Davis playing Center.  The Heat flat struggled creating offense when Davis was patrolling the paint.


Breaking it down further.

Davis defensive rating when Adebayo was on the floor in app. 112 minutes was 96.4.

Davis defensive rating when Olynyk was on the floor in app. 80 minutes was 121.9.

Davis defensive rating when Leonard was on the floor in app. 22 minutes was 120.9

The Heats inability to score when Adebayo was playing center allowing Davis to patrol the paint was the difference in the series.  The loss of Dragic also hurt because that left the Heat with only Butler as a reliable creator and Adebayo playing injured had some effect also.  I think as well as many others do that it was a tactical mistake by Spoelstra to not use his floor spacing big men far more often in games 4-6 against Davis to pull him out of the paint. 

Conversely in the Celtics series the C's posted a defensive rating of 116.1 in 234 minutes against Adebayo.  The C's were unable to slow the Heat's offense as the Lakers subsequently did against Adebayo lineups.  The Heat zone that was much more effective against the C's had to be largely abandoned versus the Lakers as Rondo, A.D. and Lebron were picking them apart.

[86MaxwellSmart]

Dragic.

[RodyTur10]

In approximately 70 minutes the combination of Davis/Howard had a defensive rating of 126.3. 

In approximately 160 minutes Davis was on the floor without Howard the Lakers defensive rating was 98.4.

In approximately 59 minutes that Davis was off the floor the Lakers defensive rating was 123.9.

Looking at the above the Heat were quite successful against all lineups that did not have Anthony Davis playing Center.  The Heat flat struggled creating offense when Davis was patrolling the paint.


Breaking it down further.

Davis defensive rating when Adebayo was on the floor in app. 112 minutes was 96.4.

Davis defensive rating when Olynyk was on the floor in app. 80 minutes was 121.9.

Davis defensive rating when Leonard was on the floor in app. 22 minutes was 120.9

The Heats inability to score when Adebayo was playing center allowing Davis to patrol the paint was the difference in the series.  The loss of Dragic also hurt because that left the Heat with only Butler as a reliable creator and Adebayo playing injured had some effect also.  I think as well as many others do that it was a tactical mistake by Spoelstra to not use his floor spacing big men far more often in games 4-6 against Davis to pull him out of the paint. 

Conversely in the Celtics series the C's posted a defensive rating of 116.1 in 234 minutes against Adebayo.  The C's were unable to slow the Heat's offense as the Lakers subsequently did against Adebayo lineups.  The Heat zone that was much more effective against the C's had to be largely abandoned versus the Lakers as Rondo, A.D. and Lebron were picking them apart.

Interesting numbers. It explains why Vogel went with the Caruso => Howard starting line-up in game 6.
Where did you find these data?

I'm curious what the Davis/Howard combo did in previous rounds, because it looked like that size was overwhelming Portland and Denver.

[tstorey_97]

The Celtics are a work in progress. Look at the rosters for the last 5 years. Ainge is doing what he can within the NBA's system to build a title team. He certainly doesn't have it yet.

I don't care for Howard, but...
James - Davis - Howard - Mcgee (IR) - Morris

Just where the heck do the Celtics find matchups with that group in a 7 game series?

Last year the Bucks were "big" and put the Celtics away.

The Celtics will figure out a frontcourt at some point abd then the two "J's" will compete for a title.

As far as the Heat this year? They put it together as a team and they have a star center.

I don't agree that the Celtics are "soft" they are not in anyway constructed to win a 7 game beat down with a team with a good frontcourt and it isn't the wings/guards responsibility to get decked underneath every night trying to make up for not having a center or a power forward.

I got sick of watching Smart and Brown covering bigs inside.

In turn, Theis, who is a perfect "off the bench center" gets pushed around by real bigs because he's all they have to start in playoff games.

Bad planning bad results. 

Are problems resolved against the Heat with the addition of Vucevich or an equivalent "starting level big"?

Not sure, but this "player" would be an improvement over Theis and the bench would be better and bigger if Theis was coming off of it. 

[ScoobyDoo]

1. They lost Dragic out of the gate. He was playing at a career best level and is really good at breaking guys down, breaking defenses down. When he’s doing that Herro and Johnson have many more good looks.

2. Herro, Johnson and company had zero hesitation at running it down our throats at the rim - zero. Against the Lakers that lane doesn’t look as inviting to them with Davis and Howard back there. That makes it easier for the guards to defend them in the perimeter as well. Ainge and Stevens need to get some big guys bigger than 6’8” that can play the game of basketball.

3. Celtics has no one who could even half contain Bam Adebayo. At 6’10” he was far too big for anyone on our  team to deal with. Every time we’d play good D Bam would break us down with a lob dunk or drive to the rim. Again Ainge and Stevens need to invest som draft, free agent and trade capital into finding male humans larger than 6’8” who can play the game of basketball. It’s far less than rocket science. Based on playoff history it’s about the most 101 thing you need to do if you want to win a championship - you have to have serviceable big men, at worst. We currently do not have a serviceable NBA big man rotation.

My favorite play of the finals was Bam seeking contact for an “and 1” on Howard. Howard obliges Bam’s ask and then he missed two games. And that was not a dirty play by Howard. He basically said “if you’re seeking contact I’ll meet you half way, and your welcome by the way”. He basically said “get that crap out of here”. That is something this Celtics team is incapable of doing as it is currently constructed. And it is something that is incredibly critical to be able to do - Control/dominate the paint with sound, not dirty, basketball force.

[tenn_smoothie]

Herro, Johnson and company had zero hesitation at running it down our throats at the rim - zero. Against the Lakers that lane doesn’t look as inviting to them with Davis and Howard back there. That makes it easier for the guards to defend them in the perimeter as well. Ainge and Stevens need to get some big guys bigger than 6’8” that can play the game of basketball.

Celtics has no one who could even half contain Bam Adebayo. At 6’10” he was far too big for anyone on our  team to deal with. Every time we’d play good D Bam would break us down with a lob dunk or drive to the rim. Again Ainge and Stevens need to invest som draft, free agent and trade capital into finding male humans larger than 6’8” who can play the game of basketball. It’s far less than rocket science. Based on playoff history it’s about the most 101 thing you need to do if you want to win a championship - you have to have serviceable big men, at worst. We currently do not have a serviceable NBA big man rotation.

That is something this Celtics team is incapable of doing as it is currently constructed. And it is something that is incredibly critical to be able to do - Control/dominate the paint with sound, not dirty, basketball force.

Amen.

But Danny and Brad have this man-love for small-ball basketball - we are not the Golden State Warriors. We have a college coach who prefers a college-like team. But at the top level of the NBA, you still gotta have some horses in the post. Drives me crazy.

We are turning into the Montreal Canadiens of basketball - once the premier franchise of the league now struggling to win titles.

[Tr1boy]

Lebron and AD

especially Lebron is a horse that was able to outendure a gym rat like Jimmy Butler.

Rondo and KCP did a much better job on Herro and Robinson

The Celtics guards of Brown and Smart ran out of gas chasing these players around non stop.   This is where the lack of depth/Hayward/Romeo injury really hurt the Celts

[Spicoli]

In approximately 70 minutes the combination of Davis/Howard had a defensive rating of 126.3. 

In approximately 160 minutes Davis was on the floor without Howard the Lakers defensive rating was 98.4.

In approximately 59 minutes that Davis was off the floor the Lakers defensive rating was 123.9.

Looking at the above the Heat were quite successful against all lineups that did not have Anthony Davis playing Center.  The Heat flat struggled creating offense when Davis was patrolling the paint.


Breaking it down further.

Davis defensive rating when Adebayo was on the floor in app. 112 minutes was 96.4.

Davis defensive rating when Olynyk was on the floor in app. 80 minutes was 121.9.

Davis defensive rating when Leonard was on the floor in app. 22 minutes was 120.9

The Heats inability to score when Adebayo was playing center allowing Davis to patrol the paint was the difference in the series.  The loss of Dragic also hurt because that left the Heat with only Butler as a reliable creator and Adebayo playing injured had some effect also.  I think as well as many others do that it was a tactical mistake by Spoelstra to not use his floor spacing big men far more often in games 4-6 against Davis to pull him out of the paint. 

Conversely in the Celtics series the C's posted a defensive rating of 116.1 in 234 minutes against Adebayo.  The C's were unable to slow the Heat's offense as the Lakers subsequently did against Adebayo lineups.  The Heat zone that was much more effective against the C's had to be largely abandoned versus the Lakers as Rondo, A.D. and Lebron were picking them apart.

Excellent breakdown of what happened. Thank you. So essentially the Lakers completely shut down Adebayo (who is the Heat's engine similar to how Jokic is for the Nuggets) and the Celtics could not. If the C's could have slowed Adebayo just a little bit the series could have been different. This is more evidence that the C's need someone better than Theis at center.