CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics History => Topic started by: Moranis on November 16, 2017, 03:16:33 PM
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I was thinking about this the other day. I truly believe Toine the first "big" to truly understand what the three point shot could be and that he doesn't get credit for being the inventor of the stretch 4. Before Toine, I don't believe a single PF or C was ever even in the top 10 in 3 PT attempts in a season. Toine led the league for 3 consecutive seasons. During those 3 seasons he attempted 7.4, 8.0, and 7.5 attempts and hit them at 36.7, 34.4, and 32.3 percent. His first two seasons with those attempts, he was hitting at a very respectable clip. Since Toine, the 3 ball has become a significant weapon in the game and particularly for big men with guys like Lewis and Anderson leading the league in attempts from the PF position.
So this post is to give Toine his due as the first stretch 4 and the creator of the trend. Here's to you big guy.
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Nope, Larry Bird was the first stretch 4. Even Paul Pierce in a recent interview I saw had cited that too. A 6'9" PF who could shoot from anywhere... and even pass from anywhere as an added bonus!
I liked 'toine, but he wasn't that effective at shooting, but man would he love the NBA today!
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Would Bob McAdoo qualify?
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Nope, Larry Bird was the first stretch 4. Even Paul Pierce in a recent interview I saw had cited that too. A 6'9" PF who could shoot from anywhere... and even pass from anywhere as an added bonus!
I liked 'toine, but he wasn't that effective at shooting, but man would he love the NBA today!
Yeah, Larry was definitely the modern day point forward, with stretch capabilities when he played at PF.
But Antoine and Jim O’Brien were before their time, for sure. At the same time, it might be a waste to utilize somebody of Toine’s skill set so much on the perimeter.
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'Toine is one of the biggest "what if" players I ever saw. Feel like he barely scrapped his potential as a basketball player and, ultimately, underachieved in regards to what he could've been.
It was frustrating to watch as it was unfolding. Especially early 2000s 'Toine.
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Nope, Larry Bird was the first stretch 4. Even Paul Pierce in a recent interview I saw had cited that too. A 6'9" PF who could shoot from anywhere... and even pass from anywhere as an added bonus!
I liked 'toine, but he wasn't that effective at shooting, but man would he love the NBA today!
To Moranis' point, what makes a stretch 4? Volume or ability? A combination?
Thing with Larry is that he didn't shoot a lot of attempts per game from behind the arc.
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'Toine is one of the biggest "what if" players I ever saw. Feel like he barely scrapped his potential as a basketball player and, ultimately, underachieved in regards to what he could've been.
It was frustrating to watch as it was unfolding. Especially early 2000s 'Toine.
Frustrating, but I personally loved every minute of his Celtics career.
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'Toine is one of the biggest "what if" players I ever saw. Feel like he barely scrapped his potential as a basketball player and, ultimately, underachieved in regards to what he could've been.
It was frustrating to watch as it was unfolding. Especially early 2000s 'Toine.
Frustrating, but I personally loved every minute of his Celtics career.
Oh yeah, ton of awesome moments. The run in '02 is still one of my most favorite rides as a sports fan.
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in 1995, 6'10" Clifford Robinson jacked up five 3-pointers per game and shot 37%.
In 1996, 6'9" Robert Horry put up 5.5 per game and hit 36.6%
Antoine didn't start really putting up a ton of 3's until 2000 and his percentage was generally terrible.
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Nope, Larry Bird was the first stretch 4. Even Paul Pierce in a recent interview I saw had cited that too. A 6'9" PF who could shoot from anywhere... and even pass from anywhere as an added bonus!
I liked 'toine, but he wasn't that effective at shooting, but man would he love the NBA today!
To Moranis' point, what makes a stretch 4? Volume or ability? A combination?
Thing with Larry is that he didn't shoot a lot of attempts per game from behind the arc.
This topic is dealing with two of my favorite players ever, so it has my attention.
I agree, I assume Moranis knows that Larry Bird could shoot 3s, but he seems to be talking about shooting the 3 ball a LOT. He also may be considering Bird a SF, which is reasonable.
Bird was definitely the best at this and the fact that his outside shooting was such a threat kept his defenders honest, but I don't think there is any doubt that Walker knew how to hoist 3s. I think this was more a Jim O'Brien philosophy than Walker's, though (Pierce was definitely not shy and don't we all remember Waltah??). Maybe he deserves more credit for how the game has evolved.
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'Toine is one of the biggest "what if" players I ever saw. Feel like he barely scrapped his potential as a basketball player and, ultimately, underachieved in regards to what he could've been.
It was frustrating to watch as it was unfolding. Especially early 2000s 'Toine.
He came on to one of the worse Celtics teams in Celtics history and tanked more than a few years away chasing draft picks that didn't pan out. If Walker had come to a team with vets and good coaching he might have been a much better player...
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'Toine is one of the biggest "what if" players I ever saw. Feel like he barely scrapped his potential as a basketball player and, ultimately, underachieved in regards to what he could've been.
It was frustrating to watch as it was unfolding. Especially early 2000s 'Toine.
He came on to one of the worse Celtics teams in Celtics history and tanked more than a few years away chasing draft picks that didn't pan out. If Walker had come to a team with vets and good coaching he might have been a much better player...
For sure. Having ML Carr as your rookie year coach doesn't do you any favors.
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Nope, Larry Bird was the first stretch 4. Even Paul Pierce in a recent interview I saw had cited that too. A 6'9" PF who could shoot from anywhere... and even pass from anywhere as an added bonus!
I liked 'toine, but he wasn't that effective at shooting, but man would he love the NBA today!
To Moranis' point, what makes a stretch 4? Volume or ability? A combination?
Thing with Larry is that he didn't shoot a lot of attempts per game from behind the arc.
Certainly not a lot in terms of the modern day. For his era, though, he was a volume 3PT shooter. He finished in the top-10 in attempts seven different times (although many of those cane as a SF).
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'Toine is one of the biggest "what if" players I ever saw. Feel like he barely scrapped his potential as a basketball player and, ultimately, underachieved in regards to what he could've been.
It was frustrating to watch as it was unfolding. Especially early 2000s 'Toine.
He came on to one of the worse Celtics teams in Celtics history and tanked more than a few years away chasing draft picks that didn't pan out. If Walker had come to a team with vets and good coaching he might have been a much better player...
He was in the same boat as Pierce, and we all know the opposite trajectories their careers went.
Not buying that excuse.
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He was the first...no shot is a bad shot chucker
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When Walker was at his peak from 2000-2002, 3PT shooting was not actually his weakness. He shot a respectable 35% on high volume. The underrated problem he had was shooting INSIDE the arc where he was only at 43%, took way too many long 2s, and turned the ball over.
He also had weird levels of inconsistency, where he went from 37% on high volume to 26% on low volume to 37% on high volume. Or when he shot 56% from the line one year, but 74% another.
It's hard to place a value on Walker because he was so all over the map, and eventually tended towards the bad parts. But for a while he was a good player, and a better 3PT shooter than most remember.
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When Walker was at his peak from 2000-2002, 3PT shooting was not actually his weakness. He shot a respectable 35% on high volume. The underrated problem he had was shooting INSIDE the arc where he was only at 43%, took way too many long 2s, and turned the ball over.
He also had weird levels of inconsistency, where he went from 37% on high volume to 26% on low volume to 37% on high volume. Or when he shot 56% from the line one year, but 74% another.
It's hard to place a value on Walker because he was so all over the map, and eventually tended towards the bad parts. But for a while he was a good player, and a better 3PT shooter than most remember.
I think Bird beat him to it, I remember when he was drafted he was listed as a power forward but because of McHale he was shifted to small forward.
But I love your point, seems like Walker’s ego got in the way of his talent.
Edit: sorry I thought this was the OP
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Nope, Larry Bird was the first stretch 4. Even Paul Pierce in a recent interview I saw had cited that too. A 6'9" PF who could shoot from anywhere... and even pass from anywhere as an added bonus!
I liked 'toine, but he wasn't that effective at shooting, but man would he love the NBA today!
To Moranis' point, what makes a stretch 4? Volume or ability? A combination?
Thing with Larry is that he didn't shoot a lot of attempts per game from behind the arc.
He also played a lot at SF.
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in 1995, 6'10" Clifford Robinson jacked up five 3-pointers per game and shot 37%.
In 1996, 6'9" Robert Horry put up 5.5 per game and hit 36.6%
Antoine didn't start really putting up a ton of 3's until 2000 and his percentage was generally terrible.
Uncle Cliffy was a SF in both 95 and 96. Horry was a SF in 96 as well. Thus neither was a stretch 4.
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I truly believe Toine the first "big" to truly understand what the three point shot could be and that he doesn't get credit for being the inventor of the stretch 4. Before Toine, I don't believe a single PF or C was ever even in the top 10 in 3 PT attempts in a season
Just because a guy attempts them does not mean he is good at them. Walker was not known for his efficiency.
48the all time in FGs missed Antoine Walker 8625
FG% 41.4
FG3% 32.5
Pretty safe to say he wasn't an innovator at anything save playing inefficiently. That being said he was the best we had for a while in terms of a player.
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The only thing he stretched were his debts
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Brad Lohaus, 6'11'' PF - 2.9 3PA per game on 37% shooting, 1993
Bill Laimbeer, 6'11'' C - 2.0 3PA per game on 36% shooting, 1990
Jack Sikma, 6'11'' C - 2.7 3PA per game on 38% shooting, 1989
Richard Anderson, 6'10'' PF/C - 2.0 3PA per game on 32% shooting, 1988
Tom Chambers, 6'10'' PF - 1.8 3PA on 37.2% shooting, 1987
Robert Horry, 6'9'' SF/PF - 3.5 3PA on 37.9% shooting, 1995
Sam Perkins, 6'9'' PF/C - 3.3 3PA on 36.7% shooting, 1994
This of course is setting aside the immortal Larry Bird.
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Brad Lohaus, 6'11'' PF - 2.9 3PA per game on 37% shooting, 1993
Bill Laimbeer, 6'11'' C - 2.0 3PA per game on 36% shooting, 1990
Jack Sikma, 6'11'' C - 2.7 3PA per game on 38% shooting, 1989
Richard Anderson, 6'10'' PF/C - 2.0 3PA per game on 32% shooting, 1988
Tom Chambers, 6'10'' PF - 1.8 3PA on 37.2% shooting, 1987
Robert Horry, 6'9'' SF/PF - 3.5 3PA on 37.9% shooting, 1995
Sam Perkins, 6'9'' PF/C - 3.3 3PA on 36.7% shooting, 1994
This of course is setting aside the immortal Larry Bird.
I’d add Chris Webber in Washington to that list, especially 1995-1997. 40.5% on 2.1 attempts per game (combined for two seasons since he only played in 15 games one of the years).
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In 1989 Harold Pressley of the Kings attempted 3.7 threes per game and shot 40.3% in 28.2 minutes per game. This placed him in the top 5 in three point attempts per game that season.
He was a 6'7'' PF (according to Basketball-Reference, anyway).
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I truly believe Toine the first "big" to truly understand what the three point shot could be and that he doesn't get credit for being the inventor of the stretch 4. Before Toine, I don't believe a single PF or C was ever even in the top 10 in 3 PT attempts in a season
Just because a guy attempts them does not mean he is good at them. Walker was not known for his efficiency.
48the all time in FGs missed Antoine Walker 8625
FG% 41.4
FG3% 32.5
Pretty safe to say he wasn't an innovator at anything save playing inefficiently. That being said he was the best we had for a while in terms of a player.
Toine was Marcus Smart, but without the defense, ballhandling, court vision, and drive to do whatever it takes to win.
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The credit for high volume 3pt chucking on those teams goes to Jim O'Brien. He knew the roster sucked, and coupled grind it out defense, and slow pace/possessions to keep it close, and the mathematical advantage of the 3 to squeeze wins out of garbage.
But to say shooting bigs were invented in 2000 really misses a lot of hoop history, and a too narrow focus even on the era of the '00's. Heck, McHale shot 3's. Rasheed Wallace for petes sake. And opposing coaches would've rather had both on the 3pt line than the post.
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Toine was Marcus Smart, but without the defense, ballhandling, court vision, and drive to do whatever it takes to win.
This is unfair to Antoine.
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Toine was Marcus Smart, but without the defense, ballhandling, court vision, and drive to do whatever it takes to win.
This is unfair to Antoine.
Yeah. He could dribble well, surely for his size and position. He had some skills; the frustration was his stubborn commitment to not develop them any further.
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I truly believe Toine the first "big" to truly understand what the three point shot could be and that he doesn't get credit for being the inventor of the stretch 4. Before Toine, I don't believe a single PF or C was ever even in the top 10 in 3 PT attempts in a season
Just because a guy attempts them does not mean he is good at them. Walker was not known for his efficiency.
48the all time in FGs missed Antoine Walker 8625
FG% 41.4
FG3% 32.5
Pretty safe to say he wasn't an innovator at anything save playing inefficiently. That being said he was the best we had for a while in terms of a player.
But the first two seasons he really upped his attempts he was a pretty good shooter.
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Brad Lohaus, 6'11'' PF - 2.9 3PA per game on 37% shooting, 1993
Bill Laimbeer, 6'11'' C - 2.0 3PA per game on 36% shooting, 1990
Jack Sikma, 6'11'' C - 2.7 3PA per game on 38% shooting, 1989
Richard Anderson, 6'10'' PF/C - 2.0 3PA per game on 32% shooting, 1988
Tom Chambers, 6'10'' PF - 1.8 3PA on 37.2% shooting, 1987
Robert Horry, 6'9'' SF/PF - 3.5 3PA on 37.9% shooting, 1995
Sam Perkins, 6'9'' PF/C - 3.3 3PA on 36.7% shooting, 1994
This of course is setting aside the immortal Larry Bird.
Most of those guys were fluke one season things and many were very much role players. Some were SF's, like Horry. They weren't trend setters.
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Brad Lohaus, 6'11'' PF - 2.9 3PA per game on 37% shooting, 1993
Bill Laimbeer, 6'11'' C - 2.0 3PA per game on 36% shooting, 1990
Jack Sikma, 6'11'' C - 2.7 3PA per game on 38% shooting, 1989
Richard Anderson, 6'10'' PF/C - 2.0 3PA per game on 32% shooting, 1988
Tom Chambers, 6'10'' PF - 1.8 3PA on 37.2% shooting, 1987
Robert Horry, 6'9'' SF/PF - 3.5 3PA on 37.9% shooting, 1995
Sam Perkins, 6'9'' PF/C - 3.3 3PA on 36.7% shooting, 1994
This of course is setting aside the immortal Larry Bird.
I’d add Chris Webber in Washington to that list, especially 1995-1997. 40.5% on 2.1 attempts per game (combined for two seasons since he only played in 15 games one of the years).
now CWebb is interesting.
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Remember Bill Laimbeer? Didn't he shoot a lot of 3s?
For as long as there has been a 3pt line, there have been 4s and 5s that were better from outside than inside. It just wasn't the norm, like it is now.
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The credit for high volume 3pt chucking on those teams goes to Jim O'Brien. He knew the roster sucked, and coupled grind it out defense, and slow pace/possessions to keep it close, and the mathematical advantage of the 3 to squeeze wins out of garbage.
But to say shooting bigs were invented in 2000 really misses a lot of hoop history, and a too narrow focus even on the era of the '00's. Heck, McHale shot 3's. Rasheed Wallace for petes sake. And opposing coaches would've rather had both on the 3pt line than the post.
Agreed. His decision to start Rodney Rogers at the 5 during the playoffs (in I believe 2001), was huge in the C’s pulling Dikembe Mutumbo out of the paint and largely neutralizing his impact defensively (or burning him defensively if he didn’t guard Rogers outside the paint).
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Bruno Sundov. I remember him taking a lot three's, couldn't do much else.
Antoine was not a stretch 4, but a point-forward.