How can Doc defend Scal and dog Miles?

[Finkelskyhook]

Doc is a master motivator.

  An absolute myth in epic proportions.  You don't motivate anybody by trashing them in the press.  That's something that Rivers has always done with his bench players.  But never the team's best players.  It's a chicken%&*% approach to motivation.   He won a championship with an idiot-proof roster and the best defensive coach in basketball.  He seems like a good person.  But let's not get carried away.  He ain't the second coming of Red.  He ain't the second coming of KC for that matter.

I doubt anybody is trying to move Scal's contract.  It would have been done a long time ago if they were.  He's not going anywhere.  There are times when he's embarassing to watch.  But most of the time he isn't hurting the team when he's on the court.  Defensively, he's always helping the team when he's on the court.  Last season he didn't try to do too much and was an asset.  It's preseason.  Where everybody tries to do too much.

[CelticsWhat35]

Doc is a master motivator.

  An absolute myth in epic proportions.  You don't motivate anybody by trashing them in the press.  That's something that Rivers has always done with his bench players.  But never the team's best players.  It's a chicken%&*% approach to motivation.   He won a championship with an idiot-proof roster and the best defensive coach in basketball.  He seems like a good person.  But let's not get carried away.  He ain't the second coming of Red.  He ain't the second coming of KC for that matter.

I doubt anybody is trying to move Scal's contract.  It would have been done a long time ago if they were.  He's not going anywhere.  There are times when he's embarassing to watch.  But most of the time he isn't hurting the team when he's on the court.  Defensively, he's always helping the team when he's on the court.  Last season he didn't try to do too much and was an asset.  It's preseason.  Where everybody tries to do too much.

That's odd that you would say that, because Tommy Heinsohn would always talk about how Red would never yell at Bill Russell, and would instead take it out on other players.

It doesn't make much sense to criticize how Doc treats his players when they all seem to love him and play hard for him.  Whatever he's doing, it's working.  Even when the team stunk, they still played hard.

[Finkelskyhook]

That's odd that you would say that, because Tommy Heinsohn would always talk about how Red would never yell at Bill Russell, and would instead take it out on other players.

It doesn't make much sense to criticize how Doc treats his players when they all seem to love him and play hard for him.  Whatever he's doing, it's working.  Even when the team stunk, they still played hard.

An apples to oranges comparison in so many ways.  When Doc's team sucked, they tanked.  The players may have played hard but the intent from "coaching" was to lose.  The first three years were a disgraceful display of one-way basketball with no direction.   What35, can you picture Red conceding a single posession, let alone half a season?  Is one of Doc's current players, especially one of his bench players, (if he wants a roster spot, that is)  supposed to say anything but the notion that he loves Doc?  What he's said about players after they're no longer Celtics is classless.

Please find an article where Red trashed individual players in the press.  You won't.  Do it in practice.  Don't browbeat players on the court and don't trash them in the press.

[CelticsWhat35]

That's odd that you would say that, because Tommy Heinsohn would always talk about how Red would never yell at Bill Russell, and would instead take it out on other players.

It doesn't make much sense to criticize how Doc treats his players when they all seem to love him and play hard for him.  Whatever he's doing, it's working.  Even when the team stunk, they still played hard.

An apples to oranges comparison in so many ways.  When Doc's team sucked, they tanked.  The players may have played hard but the intent from "coaching" was to lose.  The first three years were a disgraceful display of one-way basketball with no direction.   What35, can you picture Red conceding a single posession, let alone half a season?  Is one of Doc's current players, especially one of his bench players, (if he wants a roster spot, that is)  supposed to say anything but the notion that he loves Doc?  What he's said about players after they're no longer Celtics is classless.

Please find an article where Red trashed individual players in the press.  You won't.  Do it in practice.  Don't browbeat players on the court and don't trash them in the press.

I'll get right on that buddy.  I'll go track down all those Boston Herald column's from the early 60's.  And if Jeff or one of the Mods can locate the Celticblog archives from back then as well.  Talk about apples and oranges. 

[Finkelskyhook]

I'll get right on that buddy.  I'll go track down all those Boston Herald column's from the early 60's.  And if Jeff or one of the Mods can locate the Celticblog archives from back then as well.  Talk about apples and oranges.    

My point is, you won't find one, 35.  Putting Rivers and Auerbach in the same post is silly enough.  To compare how they interracted with players is sillier.

I'm guessing the reason that Rivers doesn't trash Scal is that he likes what Scal brings to the court.  That's why Scal isn't going anywhere.  As far as the other role players, Rivers should keep that in the locker room.




 
 
 
 

[celts55]

As much as I still believe Scal is one of the worst NBA players I have ever seen, when it comes to the great Miles/Scal debate, I am neutral. Who really cares about the 14 or 15th player on this team? I can't see either onr dressing for a game at this point. Short of an injury, I see them sitting on the end of the bench in street cloths as Scal did during the playoffs last year.
My guess is Scal stays, due to his contract, but doesn't see the court.

[crownsy]

That's odd that you would say that, because Tommy Heinsohn would always talk about how Red would never yell at Bill Russell, and would instead take it out on other players.

It doesn't make much sense to criticize how Doc treats his players when they all seem to love him and play hard for him.  Whatever he's doing, it's working.  Even when the team stunk, they still played hard.

An apples to oranges comparison in so many ways.  When Doc's team sucked, they tanked.  The players may have played hard but the intent from "coaching" was to lose.  The first three years were a disgraceful display of one-way basketball with no direction.   What35, can you picture Red conceding a single posession, let alone half a season?  Is one of Doc's current players, especially one of his bench players, (if he wants a roster spot, that is)  supposed to say anything but the notion that he loves Doc?  What he's said about players after they're no longer Celtics is classless.

Please find an article where Red trashed individual players in the press.  You won't.  Do it in practice.  Don't browbeat players on the court and don't trash them in the press.

compeltly your biased opinion, and the only thing you say you'll accept as evidence to the contrary doesn't have any shot of existing outside offline newspaper archives. talk about an air tight argument. 

Doc, from all information sources we have, is a great players coach and motivator. all the negitives you attrubte to him here are your opnion, which your entitled to, but don't qoute them as gospel with no backup but your take on the matter to us and then dismiss all counter claims by saying we need to go and find something in print from the 60's to back up any counter claim we choose to make.

Doc and red are diffrent animals, and of course doc isn't close to acheiving what red did, nor being the same kind of coach. but this whole post is ridiculous to make about a NBA champion coach. To accept your criticisms, i have to accept that

A) all celtics players are flat out lying to protect the team image when the credit doc with being a good coach

B) rivers somehow is the worst coach ever, but he lucks into an NBA championship

c) he has no effect on the team he coaches, since by your argument, that would make them terrable. instead the players run the team with none of docs terrable input.


color me unimpressed by the logic here.

[Birdbrain]

I heard Tommy say the same thing.  I pretty much doubt Tommy would lie about Red so I don't think you need to track down any actual articles.  I've heard Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells say the same thing as well.  It's a very common practice.  May not seem fair but, you know what they say about life... In fact Doc does just the opposite a bit too much for me but, and in the end I think that is why everyone loves Doc he's the same with Pruitt and Miles as he's been with Paul.  He changed Paul's game for the better and he deserves kudos for that.  

About Scal do you really think Doc would just praise him if he was as worthless as people think or do you think we might be reading box scores a bit too much?  There are a bunch of things that don't show up in box scores that are important.  Not that I don't curse him out occasionally myself but, I have to admit that I can't see the game from a coach's perspective either.

[cordobes]

Times have changed a lot since Red's coaching days. As well as the pro sports players psyche. I think Red wouldn't have much of a problem bashing his players in the press if he was coaching nowadays. Except Russell, of course; I don't see Russell as someone who would handle this kind of stuff in a nice way...

This is a very mundane thing to say, but players are individuals and they react in different ways to different approaches. Some guys respond well to harsh criticism, others not so much.

I see Doc as a very good coach all-around, but he has a history of excelling when it comes to motivating players.

Of course that when you are primarily focusing on developing and showcasing youngsters, you aren't properly coaching to win. Some may call it tanking, and I'm okay with that. What shouldn't be overlooked, I think, is that it is extremely difficult to bring your guys to play every night (a very underrated skill in a team), to bring the effort every game, when you are coaching under those conditions and most of your players are mediocre/average. Doc has coached some very untalented teams, especially the one in the year before the last, but they always showed up consistently and played every night. Without that, Ainge wouldn't be able to make the trades that put the C's on the top.

p.s. - oh, answering the OP question, probably Doc was simply stating the truth. Scal is the 2nd best defensive player in our bench so I don't see this as surprising.

[Finkelskyhook]

I see Doc as a very good coach all-around, but he has a history of excelling when it comes to motivating players.

Ask Tank McGrady
Ask Horace Grant
Ask Darrell Armstrong
Ask former Celtics whom he's trashed either during and/or (worse) after their Celtic tenures.

Neither of the top three players have any history of having trouble with coaches before or after Rivers.

Can you picture Red conceding a single posession, let alone half a season?

Rivers tanked half a season.  Sure his players played hard.  But many of those games were manipulated by Rivers for losses.  I watched the games. 
That speaks to integrity.

Like I said in an earlier post.  He seems like a decent guy.  But he ain't Red.  Let's not bestow god-like status to Doc Rivers.

[crownsy]

I see Doc as a very good coach all-around, but he has a history of excelling when it comes to motivating players.

Ask Tank McGrady
Ask Horace Grant
Ask Darrell Armstrong
Ask former Celtics whom he's trashed either during and/or (worse) after their Celtic tenures.

Neither of the top three players have any history of having trouble with coaches before or after Rivers.

Can you picture Red conceding a single posession, let alone half a season?

Rivers tanked half a season.  Sure his players played hard.  But many of those games were manipulated by Rivers for losses.  I watched the games. 
That speaks to integrity.

Like I said in an earlier post.  He seems like a decent guy.  But he ain't Red.  Let's not bestow god-like status to Doc Rivers.

because every player who ever played for red never had an off year or didn't turn into a superstar.

and again, your using a statement that enver occured (rivers is better or equal to red) to bash doc for no reason and then hide behind the "well, im only doing this because people are putting him on a god like pedestal" which no one was.

again, no one said anything about doc being the second coming of red, but don't hide behind red's skirts as the reason your going on a doc bashing spree.

[Finkelskyhook]

No, Crownsy.  All I'm doing is easily refuting the silly notion that Doc Rivers is the Zig Ziglar of the NBA.  Rivers has strengths or Danny wouldn't have hired him.  But being a master motivator?   

His best quality last season and hopefully this season is delegating the defense to somebody who actually can coach defense.  Garnett and Posey were two big reasons the defense improved last season.  But the biggest reason is that they were actually running an NBA defense instead of the trash gimmick defense they were running the previous three.  You could put Garnett, Camby, Duncan,  Bowen, Artest and Bryant on the same team and run the blitz full time and you'd still get lit up. 

[crownsy]

No, Crownsy.  All I'm doing is easily refuting the silly notion that Doc Rivers is the Zig Ziglar of the NBA.  Rivers has strengths or Danny wouldn't have hired him.  But being a master motivator?   

His best quality last season and hopefully this season is delegating the defense to somebody who actually can coach defense.  Garnett and Posey were two big reasons the defense improved last season.  But the biggest reason is that they were actually running an NBA defense instead of the trash gimmick defense they were running the previous three.  You could put Garnett, Camby, Duncan,  Bowen, Artest and Bryant on the same team and run the blitz full time and you'd still get lit up. 

so since you just said doc's only contribution was not running the defense, how are you not doing exactly what i said and not giving him one iota of credit again?

and considering every player who plays for him says his biggest strength and keeping them motivated and focused, what, outside your opnion that thier all lying to cover doc's behind, do you have to offer that he's not a great motivator?

[steve]

Big Baby seemed to be motivated by Doc's public call out. 

Why can't we pay Scal's contract and trade him to the Net's or someone who wants cap space?  Kind of like how we traded Manny.

We could get a 2nd round pick and open up a roster spot instead of having that waste of space out there.   

     

[Finkelskyhook]

WOW, Steve!!

Manny was a malcontent who was the Sox' best player and one of the best hitters in baseball.  But a locker room cancer. 

Scal, according to most in here, is the worst player in NBA history.  Let alone on the Celtics. But a good guy. 

Neither trade would help for salary cap reasons.  If you'll notice, (with the glaring exception of VanHorn), the Nets are looking for players who can actually play basketball while clearing cap space.  According to you and 90% of the posters, Scal can't.  So he isn't going to the Nets.  The reality is he won't get traded or cut until the last year of his contract.  If Danny was as determined to do either as CelticsBloggers are, Scal would have been gone a long time ago. 

He's a lot more valuable member of the Cs than most people in here give him credit for.  Even the world's greatest motivator of men is complementary of Scal.  Who are we mere dumb fans to refute the master motivator's word?