Author Topic: Smart for Wiseman?  (Read 10960 times)

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Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2020, 10:39:18 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I don't trade Smart plus other picks for the #2.  At best it is a short term step back that maybe in the long term pays off (but no certainty).  We need to be taking steps forward right now, not backwards.

And wouldn't GSW need to send something back to match salaries?  They have Curry, Thompson, Wiggins, Green all making big money and then no one else over $5M.  They would have to send back at least two players (scrubs) and maybe 3.

Or is this based on doing it after the draft and trading the actual players.  I guess then there is some matching salary.

they have an even larger trade exception

Ah, OK, that makes sense.  Those trade exemptions are valuable.  I guess we would get an exemption out of this which is good.

I still don't want to do it though as you can't say for sure what that gets you.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 11:32:24 AM by Vermont Green »

Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2020, 11:40:29 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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In a heartbeat...GS wouldn't do it though.

exactly. Why would GSW do this?

And where would Smart fit in, with Curry, Klay, Wiggins at the backcourt??

Simmons has no idea what he is proposing

What makes more sense for the GSW is trading the #2  to the Hornets for Miles Bridges and #3 pick

OR trade #2 to Knicks for Kevin Knox #8 and 27th picks ....  fill in the hole at the 3/4 positions

Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2020, 11:44:24 AM »

Online Roy H.

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In a heartbeat...GS wouldn't do it though.

exactly. Why would GSW do this?

And where would Smart fit in, with Curry, Klay, Wiggins at the backcourt??

Simmons has no idea what he is proposing

What makes more sense for the GSW is trading the #2  to the Hornets for Miles Bridges and #3 pick

OR trade #2 to Knicks for Kevin Knox #8 and 27th picks ....  fill in the hole at the 3/4 positions

Kevin Knox doesn’t really fill a hole for GS.  As of now, he’s a really bad player.


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Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2020, 11:47:18 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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In a heartbeat...GS wouldn't do it though.

exactly. Why would GSW do this?

And where would Smart fit in, with Curry, Klay, Wiggins at the backcourt??

Simmons has no idea what he is proposing

What makes more sense for the GSW is trading the #2  to the Hornets for Miles Bridges and #3 pick

OR trade #2 to Knicks for Kevin Knox #8 and 27th picks ....  fill in the hole at the 3/4 positions

Kevin Knox doesn’t really fill a hole for GS.  As of now, he’s a really bad player.

Knox is coming off a bad season. But you can't really blame the kid stuck in a system like that. With rotating chair of coaching

2 years ago, his stats looked good and on the right track


Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2020, 11:53:01 AM »

Offline RPGenerate

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In a heartbeat...GS wouldn't do it though.

exactly. Why would GSW do this?

And where would Smart fit in, with Curry, Klay, Wiggins at the backcourt??

Simmons has no idea what he is proposing

What makes more sense for the GSW is trading the #2  to the Hornets for Miles Bridges and #3 pick

OR trade #2 to Knicks for Kevin Knox #8 and 27th picks ....  fill in the hole at the 3/4 positions

Kevin Knox doesn’t really fill a hole for GS.  As of now, he’s a really bad player.

Knox is coming off a bad season. But you can't really blame the kid stuck in a system like that. With rotating chair of coaching

2 years ago, his stats looked good and on the right track
What exactly is Knox good at? Even in his rookie season he was still one of the worst players in the league getting that many minutes. Regardless of how bad his team was, he still would have shown something.
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Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2020, 12:14:00 PM »

Offline NKY fan

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In a heartbeat...GS wouldn't do it though.

exactly. Why would GSW do this?

And where would Smart fit in, with Curry, Klay, Wiggins at the backcourt??

Simmons has no idea what he is proposing

What makes more sense for the GSW is trading the #2  to the Hornets for Miles Bridges and #3 pick

OR trade #2 to Knicks for Kevin Knox #8 and 27th picks ....  fill in the hole at the 3/4 positions

Kevin Knox doesn’t really fill a hole for GS.  As of now, he’s a really bad player.

Knox is coming off a bad season. But you can't really blame the kid stuck in a system like that. With rotating chair of coaching

2 years ago, his stats looked good and on the right track
What exactly is Knox good at? Even in his rookie season he was still one of the worst players in the league getting that many minutes. Regardless of how bad his team was, he still would have shown something.
Yes Knox should serve as a reminder to all Celtics fans clamoring to see heavy minutes for Timelord and Romeo.
Knox is an exhibit 1 of what the pitfalls are of giving minutes to rookies without earning them.
Romeo and Timelord are put In the best position and system to succeed by brad and yet Results are underwhelming.

Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2020, 12:14:01 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Smart is as worth as much to the Celtics as any All-Star.  Especially since the Celts have three other players who can score 20-25 points on any given night.

If the Celts win a title in the next 5 years Smart will be a major part of that title run.  I wouldn't trade him unless I felt I was getting back a player who could be the third best player on a title team.

I know that many people, perhaps even some Celtics fans, would see this as crazy logic.  Smart is not a scorer and is never going to make an All-Star team.  He's probably a 4th or 5th starter on a good team, perhaps even a sixth man.

Doesn't matter -- he's a crucial leader and defensive stalwart on this team.  As Brad Stevens has said, there's a reason the Celts have been in the playoffs every season that Smart has been on the team.
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Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2020, 12:27:53 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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In a heartbeat...GS wouldn't do it though.

exactly. Why would GSW do this?

And where would Smart fit in, with Curry, Klay, Wiggins at the backcourt??

Simmons has no idea what he is proposing

What makes more sense for the GSW is trading the #2  to the Hornets for Miles Bridges and #3 pick

OR trade #2 to Knicks for Kevin Knox #8 and 27th picks ....  fill in the hole at the 3/4 positions

Kevin Knox doesn’t really fill a hole for GS.  As of now, he’s a really bad player.

Knox is coming off a bad season. But you can't really blame the kid stuck in a system like that. With rotating chair of coaching

2 years ago, his stats looked good and on the right track
What exactly is Knox good at? Even in his rookie season he was still one of the worst players in the league getting that many minutes. Regardless of how bad his team was, he still would have shown something.
Yes Knox should serve as a reminder to all Celtics fans clamoring to see heavy minutes for Timelord and Romeo.
Knox is an exhibit 1 of what the pitfalls are of giving minutes to rookies without earning them.
Romeo and Timelord are put In the best position and system to succeed by brad and yet Results are underwhelming.

I don't understand this

Timelord was a key piece vs Raptors in the playoffs.  And would have been against the Heat if Brad for whatever reason wanted to see Theis get manhandled by Adebayo

Langford didn't get much of an opportunity this season. But his game changed from the way he has been used to playing all his life.  He was passing up shots and mainly focused on defense.  I was impressed with his defense this season.   The main thing/sigh of relief with Langford is that his hand/wrist heals completely.  Just injury free in general

Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2020, 05:52:51 PM »

Offline gouki88

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In a heartbeat...GS wouldn't do it though.

exactly. Why would GSW do this?

And where would Smart fit in, with Curry, Klay, Wiggins at the backcourt??

Simmons has no idea what he is proposing

What makes more sense for the GSW is trading the #2  to the Hornets for Miles Bridges and #3 pick

OR trade #2 to Knicks for Kevin Knox #8 and 27th picks ....  fill in the hole at the 3/4 positions

Kevin Knox doesn’t really fill a hole for GS.  As of now, he’s a really bad player.

Knox is coming off a bad season. But you can't really blame the kid stuck in a system like that. With rotating chair of coaching

2 years ago, his stats looked good and on the right track
Knox’s whole career is bad. Just an awful player
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Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2020, 01:10:38 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I'd move Smart for the 2nd pick and wouldn't give it a second thought.  No idea if Wiseman would be my target (Ball also intrigues me as does the Israeli Avdija), but I'd do that from a value standpoint.  Smart's value to actually winning has been greatly overstated on this board throughout the years.  I mean even this year, Boston was 10-3 without Smart (and one of the losses was the meaningless last game in the bubble).  Smart is a great defender and a bulldog, and those are useful skills to have, but they don't necessarily equate to winning, especially for someone that has been so bad shooting the ball (and with his volume), who turns the ball over, who doesn't rebound, etc.  I mean seriously of the main rotation, Smart ranks just about last on the team in TS%, TOV%, TRB%, WS/48, etc.  His skills by and large just don't equate to winning basketball because he is just as likely to take a terrible shot or make a terrible decision as he is to make a defensive stop or hustle play.  And I have just as much confidence that Brown or someone else will make the defensive stop that Smart would have, but who won't give it right back on the offensive end like Smart invariably does.
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Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2020, 01:29:43 PM »

Offline shut_the_gate

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I'd move Smart for the 2nd pick and wouldn't give it a second thought.  No idea if Wiseman would be my target (Ball also intrigues me as does the Israeli Avdija), but I'd do that from a value standpoint.  Smart's value to actually winning has been greatly overstated on this board throughout the years.  I mean even this year, Boston was 10-3 without Smart (and one of the losses was the meaningless last game in the bubble).  Smart is a great defender and a bulldog, and those are useful skills to have, but they don't necessarily equate to winning, especially for someone that has been so bad shooting the ball (and with his volume), who turns the ball over, who doesn't rebound, etc.  I mean seriously of the main rotation, Smart ranks just about last on the team in TS%, TOV%, TRB%, WS/48, etc.  His skills by and large just don't equate to winning basketball because he is just as likely to take a terrible shot or make a terrible decision as he is to make a defensive stop or hustle play.  And I have just as much confidence that Brown or someone else will make the defensive stop that Smart would have, but who won't give it right back on the offensive end like Smart invariably does.

Thank you! TP! If I could give you a double I would haha.

Unfortunately even though you have very eloquently outlined your case, as you are an outsider with your reasoning (although true), you will be perceived as wrong. A group will always be right, even if they are wrong (essentially 2 + 2 = 3) as long as the majority believe it to be true.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 01:41:15 PM by shut_the_gate »

Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2020, 02:26:15 PM »

Offline footey

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I think the best case of trading Smart for the 2 pick is that Romeo Langford has proven to be a very good defender already, and should be able to replace Smart quite easily. It is not a stretch to expect Langford to replace Smart's offensive production and frankly the drop in usage would be a good thing given Smart's inefficiency.

Danny would have to be convinced that the guy at 2 (Wiseman? Okongwu? Other?) is a sure bet to become a long term starter for us, if not a future all star, which is what you usually project with the 2nd pick, but probably not in this draft.

Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2020, 02:32:53 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I think the best case of trading Smart for the 2 pick is that Romeo Langford has proven to be a very good defender already, and should be able to replace Smart quite easily. It is not a stretch to expect Langford to replace Smart's offensive production and frankly the drop in usage would be a good thing given Smart's inefficiency.

Danny would have to be convinced that the guy at 2 (Wiseman? Okongwu? Other?) is a sure bet to become a long term starter for us, if not a future all star, which is what you usually project with the 2nd pick, but probably not in this draft.
Long term starter.  I think there are bout 8 or 9 players that project as that.  All Star, I agree doesn't look as clear, but I do think Ball has that sort of potential.  I think he could be a great player and the idea of Ball, Brown, and Tatum roaming the backcourt/wings for a decade just intrigues me.  Avdija also intrigues me a great deal as a prospect, though a player from Europe has a lot more bust risk.  Obviously Edwards might not go 1 and he has the scoring chops to be a great player.  The big guys are more uncertain just given the way the league has looked recently, but honestly it just takes one Shaq type offensive force in the paint to shift the league back to more traditional bigs.  Obviously I don't think Wiseman is that sort of talent, but I do think he could be a 20/10 type player over the course of several seasons. 
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Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2020, 02:44:32 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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I think the best case of trading Smart for the 2 pick is that Romeo Langford has proven to be a very good defender already, and should be able to replace Smart quite easily. It is not a stretch to expect Langford to replace Smart's offensive production and frankly the drop in usage would be a good thing given Smart's inefficiency.

Danny would have to be convinced that the guy at 2 (Wiseman? Okongwu? Other?) is a sure bet to become a long term starter for us, if not a future all star, which is what you usually project with the 2nd pick, but probably not in this draft.

Part of me agrees with your comments about Smart. How hard is it to replace a player like him? Can Brown and Langford replace most of his defensive chops? If you can play a decent rotation wing, how much of a drop-off is it? If you signed Kris Dunn to a vet min contract, could he do 90% of what Smart does defensively?

Maybe the Cs can only go as far as Smart can take them. His defense is stellar but can he propel a team forward offensively? I've often wondered if we lose most or all on offense of what we gain from Smart on defense.

But its not like I want to trade him either. I love his heart and I would much rather see him shoot less so better offensive players get more looks.

I also agree with your assessment on #2. If Ainge loved a guy there, maybe it makes sense? if Wiseman can become a dominate inside presence, maybe it makes sense.

Re: Smart for Wiseman?
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2020, 02:51:30 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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I'd move Smart for the 2nd pick and wouldn't give it a second thought.  No idea if Wiseman would be my target (Ball also intrigues me as does the Israeli Avdija), but I'd do that from a value standpoint.  Smart's value to actually winning has been greatly overstated on this board throughout the years.  I mean even this year, Boston was 10-3 without Smart (and one of the losses was the meaningless last game in the bubble).  Smart is a great defender and a bulldog, and those are useful skills to have, but they don't necessarily equate to winning, especially for someone that has been so bad shooting the ball (and with his volume), who turns the ball over, who doesn't rebound, etc.  I mean seriously of the main rotation, Smart ranks just about last on the team in TS%, TOV%, TRB%, WS/48, etc.  His skills by and large just don't equate to winning basketball because he is just as likely to take a terrible shot or make a terrible decision as he is to make a defensive stop or hustle play.  And I have just as much confidence that Brown or someone else will make the defensive stop that Smart would have, but who won't give it right back on the offensive end like Smart invariably does.

I have a little part of me that agrees with you Moranis. I may be overreaching, but are all-nba defensive guards perhaps the position that correlates least championships/contention of all the all-nba and all-nba defensive teams? They seem like floor-raisers, but not ceiling-raisers. Perhaps this is because of the way the rules benefit offensive guards?