CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: liam on February 09, 2018, 12:35:31 PM
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Everything I read is just so positive for these Cavs trades. I don't even see how they are better. Three of the four guys they traded for are very injury prone and none are anything more than role players. Last summer I was reading everything about how the Cavs crushed it in the Kyrie/IT trade and how they got better by adding Crowder and that IT and Kyrie was a wash. I think that was clearly wrong.
This looks like a panic move that doesn't make the Cavs better this year or in the future but I keep seeing writers giving the Cavs an A for the trade. The Lakers won that trade. Confusing...
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It was definitely a lateral move but still a good move for them. The pieces weren't fitting. Sometimes addition by subtraction works. They have players that will know their roles and probably perform their roles better while definitely improving on d. I still dont see them getting out of the east but they did improve just by eliminating the toxins....
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In terms of talent you could argue that it's a lateral move. However, talent alone isn't the biggest factor in why this could work well for the Cavs. Hill, Hood, Clarkson, and Nance are all used to playing a specific role. They will defer to LeBron and do whatever is asked of them. Don't be shocked when LeBron begins playing with a renewed sense of urgency again. Once this happens you will see JR Smith and Tristan Thompson return to their form from a few years ago.
The Cavs also get younger and more athletic with the trade. Don't underestimate the impact of removing the players that LeBron doesn't like (Wade excluded).
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so Lebron probably wanted to go to LA this summer ....unless they reach or win finals.
But basically the Cavs deal paved an open path for Lebron to walk right into Laker Land.
Before .....it was reported IFFY if the Lakers could clear cap space this year
Now Cavs ....helped make that dream come true for the Lakers , Magic , NBA, Lebron . They have all but put Lebron on the Lakers .....and it cost them to do it. Did they want Lebron gone 100 % , is that the real emd game ......get Lebron out of town too.
What kind of pay off does Gilbert get .....3 lottry firsts for letting this go down so easy ?
Maybe James agrees not to bad mouth Gilbert in public this summer , as Gilbert handed him directly tomtue Lakers .
Gilbert spent alot of money to be sure Lebron doesn't return IMO. This trade with the Lakers is the craziest thing ever.
No way does adding Hill , Nance , and Clarkson make them competitive with GS or Rockets .......i doubt they beat Washington, Boston, Toronto to get slaughtered by GS or Houston.
None of the guys they added are defensive stoppers or known for their great defense.
The whole thing is a lets be done with Lebron .....help make his mind up .....start over deal. If they were really serious , they whould have used tye Nets pick , and brought in Avery Bradley and
DJ.
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Liam - I pretty much agree with you. The hype around those trades seemed to just go off the charts. Charles Barkley basically said that Cleveland is now the team to beat in the east. I just roll my eyes. How some people are saying this team is better than last year's cavs I have no idea.
George Hill is a fine player. He may help them some, he has playoff experience. Is George Hill as good as Kyrie? No way. Not even close.
Is Jordan Clarkson a better backup 2 than Wade? Maybe a close call during the regular season, but not in the playoffs. Wade had played pretty well coming off the bench 11ppg/4rpg/3.5 apg in 23 mpg. I call this one a push.
Is Rodney Hood better than JR Smith? Hood has 11 games of playoff experience last year where he was pretty bad. shot 35% from the field and 23% from 3 in those games last year. He is a good player so maybe you say he starts and he is an upgrade over last years JR Smith.
I don't consider larry nance jr. a bit impact on the trade. I don't see him getting a lot of minutes after Love comes back, Jeff Green has been averaging 22 min a game and that was before Love was hurt.
Cavs may be better than the pile of dung that they were during the last few weeks, but I don't see any way this years team with these trades is better than last years Cavs team.
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so Lebron probably wanted to go to LA this summer ....unless they reach or win finals.
But basically the Cavs deal paved an open path for Lebron to walk right into Laker Land.
Before .....it was reported IFFY if the Lakers could clear cap space this year
Now Cavs ....helped make that dream come true for the Lakers , Magic , NBA, Lebron .
What kind of pay off does Gilbert get .....3 lottry firsts for letting this go down so easy ?
Maybe James agrees not to bad mouth Glbert in public this summer , as Gilbert handed him directly tomtue Lakers .
Gilbert spent alot of money to be sure Lebron doesn't return IMO. This trade with tye Lakers is the craziest thing ever.
I understand the sentiment that the Cavs opened up the cap space for the Lakers but I believe LeBron would have found another home either way if he truly wants out of Cleveland. What's clear is that the current version of the Cavs was going absolutely nowhere. Gilbert made the best of a bad situation IMO. Let's also not forget the potential financial impact of the deal. A motivated LeBron gives them a great chance to get back to the Finals. Assuming he leaves then Gilbert will want as much playoff revenue as possible this season.
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I don't know if it's a lateral move, but it certainly sets them up nicely for the post-LeBron era.
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Liam - I pretty much agree with you. The hype around those trades seemed to just go off the charts. Charles Barkley basically said that Cleveland is now the team to beat in the east. I just roll my eyes. How some people are saying this team is better than last year's cavs I have no idea.
George Hill is a fine player. He may help them some, he has playoff experience. Is George Hill as good as Kyrie? No way. Not even close.
Is Jordan Clarkson a better backup 2 than Wade? Maybe a close call during the regular season, but not in the playoffs. Wade had played pretty well coming off the bench 11ppg/4rpg/3.5 apg in 23 mpg. I call this one a push.
Is Rodney Hood better than JR Smith? Hood has 11 games of playoff experience last year where he was pretty bad. shot 35% from the field and 23% from 3 in those games last year. He is a good player so maybe you say he starts and he is an upgrade over last years JR Smith.
I don't consider larry nance jr. a bit impact on the trade. I don't see him getting a lot of minutes after Love comes back, Jeff Green has been averaging 22 min a game and that was before Love was hurt.
Cavs may be better than the pile of dung that they were during the last few weeks, but I don't see any way this years team with these trades is better than last years Cavs team.
The trade does nothing for this season if we are talking strictly in terms of winning a title. On the flip side it definitely gives them a MUCH better shot to win the Eastern Conference. This has more to do with a motivated LeBron than anything else. I can't stand LBJ but we all know he can carry a team to the Finals without elite talent.
There is no better example than the 2015 NBA Finals. The Cavs went 6 games against the Warriors with the following healthy roster:
LeBron James
Timofey Mozgov
J.R. Smith
Tristan Thompson
Matthew Dellevadova
Iman Shupert
James Jones
Mike Miller
Kendrick Perkins
Joe Harris
Kyrie played game 1 but missed the rest of the series.
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they made an aesthetically pleasing lateral move...and aesthetics should be worth
a few more wins all by itself. ;D
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It’s the right move for them for the future. Clarkson, Nance, and Hood are some good young talent and they got a 1st rounder too I believe. It won’t hurt them this year, but I don’t think it helps them this year either. Celtics or Raptors will come out of the east this year.
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I still say this boils down to one thing. Motivated LeBron vs Unmotivated LeBron. We don't know which version will show up in the playoffs but are people really falling for the "lack of talent" trap? He has more than enough around him to make the Finals as long as he plays to his full potential. Boston and Toronto have a great shot but it would be stupid to dismiss LeBron after making 7 Finals in a row.
I'm really baffled that people are so dismissive of their chances.
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I agree it improves their chemistry and potential future outlook (I like Nance a lot). As far as championship chances? Very very marginally. Their ceiling was and still is a finals trip and a beatdown from Golden State or Houston (barring injuries to the surviving squad). Their 3rd best player is George Hill
Here is the 3rd best player on the last 10 NBA Champions (imo at least)
2017: Klay Thompson
2016: Kevin Love
2015: Draymond Green
2014: Kawaii Leonard/Tim Duncan
2013: Chris Bosh
2012: Chris Bosh
2011: Jason Terry/Tyson Chandler
2010: Andrew Bynum
2009: Lamar Odom
2008: Ray Allen
So my thoughts on this list. I think just about everyone views the Mavericks as one of the great Cinderella teams to win the championship in the last 20 years (perhaps along with the " no stars " pistons teams.). So I would not view that as a repeatable title team.
Aside from that you have the spurs and Lakers teams. I think these would be the best hope for the Cavs to look to, but those teams have some pretty major differences in coaching given they have 2 of the top 4 or 5 all-time coaches (the Cavs have a terrible coach). Can a team like those Lakers and Spurs win in today's NBA when many of the teams have 3 all-star players and the Warriors have 4?
Some may say that Houston only has two stars, which I would agree with, but Capela is getting close and more importantly Paul and Harden are clear top 10 players in the NBA.
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It’s the right move for them for the future. Clarkson, Nance, and Hood are some good young talent and they got a 1st rounder too I believe. It won’t hurt them this year, but I don’t think it helps them this year either. Celtics or Raptors will come out of the east this year.
Not only did they not get a 1st, they actually traded their own 2018 first away.
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I agree it improves their chemistry and potential future outlook (I like Nance a lot). As far as championship chances? Very very marginally. Their ceiling was and still is a finals trip and a beatdown from Golden State or Houston (barring injuries to the surviving squad). Their 3rd best player is George Hill
Here is the 3rd best player on the last 10 NBA Champions (imo at least)
2017: Klay Thompson
2016: Kevin Love
2015: Draymond Green
2014: Kawaii Leonard/Tim Duncan
2013: Chris Bosh
2012: Chris Bosh
2011: Jason Terry/Tyson Chandler
2010: Andrew Bynum
2009: Lamar Odom
2008: Ray Allen
So my thoughts on this list. I think just about everyone views the Mavericks as one of the great Cinderella teams to win the championship in the last 20 years (perhaps along with the " no stars " pistons teams.). So I would not view that as a repeatable title team.
Aside from that you have the spurs and Lakers teams. I think these would be the best hope for the Cavs to look to, but those teams have some pretty major differences in coaching given they have 2 of the top 4 or 5 all-time coaches (the Cavs have a terrible coach). Can a team like those Lakers and Spurs win in today's NBA when many of the teams have 3 all-star players and the Warriors have 4?
Some may say that Houston only has two stars, which I would agree with, but Capela is getting close and more importantly Paul and Harden are clear top 10 players in the NBA.
Outside of Golden State, George Hill is absolutely on par with the 3rd best player on every other contender this year, including Houston (Gordon and Capela aren't exactly well rounded players). Outside of Golden State, Rodney Hood is on par or better then every other contender's 4th best player. Thompson, Nance, Korver, Smith, Green, and Clarkson are probably the best 5-10 of every team in the league, including Golden State.
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(http://www.quickenloans.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/MagicJohnsom_DVP2.jpg)
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No, it wasn't lateral move. Maybe you think that Hood, Hill, Clarkson and Nance are mediocre players but Isaiah and Jae have been bad players. So even from that perspective the Cavs got better. Hood adds a very good perimeter shooter, the exact kind of player who James gets the most out of. Hill is by far the best guard defender they have had on the roster this year. Nance provides defense and athleticism to their front court, somebody who could maybe guard Durant a little. Clarkson is pretty much an upgrade version of what IT had been this season. A better though still awful defender, and a more efficient though only average offensive player.
In terms of chemistry, they had to do something. This at least shows Lebron they are going for it, and may motivate him to put full effort instead of 60% effort. They may not have much more of a shot at the GSW, but they have improved their ECF chances and gives them some pieces going forward.
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No, it wasn't lateral move. Maybe you think that Hood, Hill, Clarkson and Nance are mediocre players but Isaiah and Jae have been bad players. So even from that perspective the Cavs got better. Hood adds a very good perimeter shooter, the exact kind of player who James gets the most out of. Hill is by far the best guard defender they have had on the roster this year. Nance provides defense and athleticism to their front court, somebody who could maybe guard Durant a little. Clarkson is pretty much an upgrade version of what IT had been this season. A better though still awful defender, and a more efficient though only average offensive player.
In terms of chemistry, they had to do something. This at least shows Lebron they are going for it, and may motivate him to put full effort instead of 60% effort. They may not have much more of a shot at the GSW, but they have improved their ECF chances and gives them some pieces going forward.
You are only looking at it on paper just like Bakleys do, in reality they just lost the chance that "come playoff time all of their veterans focus on winning and absolutely flip the switch", now they simply don't have the talent level and experience to contend, and only 30 game left and bad coaching just ensured it, and make no mistake, Lebron isn't 31 anymore and can't dominate in both ends the whole game anymore, and now no one is going to bell him out
This is just like the Kyrie trade, they panicked and choose the desperation move, which will just backfire badly on them,again
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I wouldn't quite say it's lateral. They did better themselves for the long-term with or without Lebron.
However, I think all this instant analysis by some of the media & some posters on here that this puts them right at the top of the Eastern Conference is overblown & based a lot on the allure of potential of Clarkson & Nance. I'm not sure how much this will push the needle for them this season although it probably moves the needle for Motivated Lebron to show up again. Chemistry will take time & I do think what the new guys can provide is being overblown by the media. I do think it was take a superhuman effort by him if they're going to go back to the Finals, though.
If I'm a Celtics fan, I'm looking at mid-June right now with baited breath after what's transpired at the trade deadline. I think, barring injuries, there is an excellent shot the Celtics make it out of the East now.
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I am really surprised to see people so positive about this trade for the Cavs future. Not only did they give up a 1st round pick, but over the next two years, the Cavs are north of $100 Million without including Lebron's salary or Rodney Hood's upcoming deal. If they are able to keep both players, they may push $150 Million without even taking into consideration luxury tax dollars. With just Hood and no Lebron, that is a very weak roster with little potential to compete.
In Shumpert and Crowder, they traded away just over $18M next season and $7.8M in 19-20. However, just in Hill and Clarkson, they are taking in approximately $31.5M over both of the next two seasons. And if they decide to keep Hood, that number skyrockets.
I understand that this is good for camaraderie and that the Cavs now have a puncher's chance of reaching the Finals, but over the long haul, this seems like a horrible way to start the future. Hey, at least they have the BKN pick, because if Lebron leaves, that is the only high pick they will have for the forseeable future. All the while paying an enormous amount of money to a pretty mediocre team.
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I thought Cavs did alright. They definitely made the roster younger which was a big issue for them. They were the odlest team in the league. Also, almost all those contracts are trade-able and the players young enough to field an okay team post Lebron. They cap is still poop but they would have been a lot worse imo if they had just kept status quo and Lebron left.
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how much does coaching come into this? we were told all summer from the media not to get too excited about the celtics because of their massive overhaul. They came out the gate firing. but alot of that is on Brad stevens. we were also told how IT was a lateral move in cleveland to Kyrie and that crowder would improve their defense. But Lue had no idea how to use them.
Now we are supposed to believe a team that gutted its roster 2 months before the playoffs is going to gel immediately. Thats a big task for Tyronn Lue who has yet to show me he is more than a cheerleader for lebron.
i've been told to believe over and over that stars win in the NBA not role players. yet with cleveland, I am supposed to believe that roleplayers will win...
Cavs may have raised their floor, because these less talented players will probably bow to lebron and do whatever they are asked. and it isnt out of the realm for Lebron to drag a team to the finals.
But they've lowered their ceiling.
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how much does coaching come into this? we were told all summer from the media not to get too excited about the celtics because of their massive overhaul. They came out the gate firing. but alot of that is on Brad stevens. we were also told how IT was a lateral move in cleveland to Kyrie and that crowder would improve their defense. But Lue had no idea how to use them.
Now we are supposed to believe a team that gutted its roster 2 months before the playoffs is going to gel immediately. Thats a big task for Tyronn Lue who has yet to show me he is more than a cheerleader for lebron.
i've been told to believe over and over that stars win in the NBA not role players. yet with cleveland, I am supposed to believe that roleplayers will win...
Cavs may have raised their floor, because these less talented players will probably bow to lebron and do whatever they are asked. and it isnt out of the realm for Lebron to drag a team to the finals.
But they've lowered their ceiling.
It's not about believing that the roleplayers will win. It all comes back to a motivated LeBron James. The Cavs have enough athleticism and shooting to get through the East. They just need a couple of role players to contribute on a nightly basis. There's enough depth for it to being a different guy every night. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, LeBron was able to take the Warriors to 6 games without Kyrie or Kevin Love in the NBA Finals. That Warriors group was far superior to the current Celtics and Raptors.
As for coaching, it has always been a major factor when a veteran team faces LeBron in the playoffs. Rick Carlisle, Gregg Popovich, and Steve Kerr are the only coaches to beat LeBron since he left Cleveland for the first time. Carlisle and Popovich pulled it off with less raw talent. Kerr deserves credit for transforming the Warriors from a poor passing team to the best in the NBA by far.
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Talent-wise, it’s a step back. But, they weren’t close to maximizing that talent. The fit and locker room sucked, and Lebron wasn’t buying in.
They’re nowhere close to GSW, but they should be able to play passable defense while getting in line behind Lebron.
I wish there had been a way for us to get Hood. He’s a solid 6th man type.
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Talent-wise, it’s a step back. But, they weren’t close to maximizing that talent. The fit and locker room sucked, and Lebron wasn’t buying in.
They’re nowhere close to GSW, but they should be able to play passable defense while getting in line behind Lebron.
What players did Cleveland give up that are more talented than the players they brought in?
I keep seeing people say this, but I'm not seeing it.
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I am really surprised to see people so positive about this trade for the Cavs future. Not only did they give up a 1st round pick, but over the next two years, the Cavs are north of $100 Million without including Lebron's salary or Rodney Hood's upcoming deal. If they are able to keep both players, they may push $150 Million without even taking into consideration luxury tax dollars. With just Hood and no Lebron, that is a very weak roster with little potential to compete.
In Shumpert and Crowder, they traded away just over $18M next season and $7.8M in 19-20. However, just in Hill and Clarkson, they are taking in approximately $31.5M over both of the next two seasons. And if they decide to keep Hood, that number skyrockets.
I understand that this is good for camaraderie and that the Cavs now have a puncher's chance of reaching the Finals, but over the long haul, this seems like a horrible way to start the future. Hey, at least they have the BKN pick, because if Lebron leaves, that is the only high pick they will have for the forseeable future. All the while paying an enormous amount of money to a pretty mediocre team.
I don't believe that short term cap issues will hinder the Cavs rebuilding effort, especially if the Brooklyn pick lands them in the top 3 of the draft. It only becomes a factor if they have an opportunity to sign elite free agents, which we all know wont happen.
Their current roster puts them at roughly $102 Million for next season if LeBron leaves. The only major financial decision will be whether or not to pay Rodney Hood. They will probably move Korver after the season. If they are hoping to sign Hood and avoid the luxury tax then Clarkson will need to be traded again. I can't imagine anyone taking on Hill, J.R. Smith, or Thompson.
None of this is an ideal rebuilding scenario for the Cavs but it could be much worse. At least they have Brooklyn 18 and their own first round picks (both top 10 protected) in 2019 and 2020.
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Talent-wise, it’s a step back. But, they weren’t close to maximizing that talent. The fit and locker room sucked, and Lebron wasn’t buying in.
They’re nowhere close to GSW, but they should be able to play passable defense while getting in line behind Lebron.
What players did Cleveland give up that are more talented than the players they brought in?
I keep seeing people say this, but I'm not seeing it.
Talent-wise, IT is by far the best guy in the deal. Wade has a ton of talent, Crowder has the talent to be an above-average starter.
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Talent-wise, it’s a step back. But, they weren’t close to maximizing that talent. The fit and locker room sucked, and Lebron wasn’t buying in.
They’re nowhere close to GSW, but they should be able to play passable defense while getting in line behind Lebron.
What players did Cleveland give up that are more talented than the players they brought in?
I keep seeing people say this, but I'm not seeing it.
Talent-wise, IT is by far the best guy in the deal. Wade has a ton of talent, Crowder has the talent to be an above-average starter.
Crowder isn't better than any of the players Cleveland brought in.
Thomas is washed up. Last year's IT is never returning. He's a bench player now. A bench player that may be the worst defender in the entire NBA.
Wade is old. You'll be lucky to get 1 'throwback' performance in a 7 games series from him. Other than that, he's usually a net negative due his lack of effort and ability on defense.
The players they brought in are not only better players at their current levels, but don't have the egos that the guys they sent out did.
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I think that all the press people are thinking that LeBron is a leader and will whip these guys into shape is a gross overestimation of his capabilities. I think he is great player but a leader he is not. He is more of play by example guy than a rock solid leader and face it, locker room wise he is not a leader. The situation in CLE festered because he was not a leader. Doing stunts like putting out a babyseat for IT and the like was not solid leadership. Most of the titles he has won, another player lead the team at clutch moments down the stretch because he does not always have it in him in the big moments and will cut and run if his team gets down with an excuse like cramps.
So I think all this is hype, a lot of these guys put up numbers on bad teams which is easy if your a primary of secondary option. I do not think these guys will do so in CLE because LeBron will have the ball most of time.
Also, a number of them are dubious defenders like Hood.
Lastly, they will have time to play together and then KLove will come back and mess up their chemistry.
Love for LeBron makes the media blind. I do not think this helps them as much as his sychophants say it will. He will put up great numbers as usual, but I have doubts about his ability to whip team mates into shape or lead them.
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Going to find out tomorrow
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Only way to really tell, for me - is to meet them in the playoffs.
We had a good shot before their trades and I still feel that way today.
Kyrie's going to have a TON to prove.
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Only way to really tell, for me - is to meet them in the playoffs.
We had a good shot before their trades and I still feel that way today.
Kyrie's going to have a TON to prove.
Tomorrow's game should be a reasonable measuring stick. They will have their new players active. Sure, they had no chance to gel yet, but we will be without Smart, Hayward, and whoever we pick up from buyouts.
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I actually think the Cave should be favored in the East now. But may still get blown out by Houston or Golden State in the finals.
It will come down to defense. Last year the Warriors had players, mainly Durant, waltzing down main street for endless uncontested dunks and layups. Do the Cave now have the personnel to stop that? Can Jeff Green plug last year's gaping hole to the rim? If there were a mean borderline violent backup center who gets bought out...that would help.
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I actually think the Cave should be favored in the East now. But may still get blown out by Houston or Golden State in the finals.
It will come down to defense. Last year the Warriors had players, mainly Durant, waltzing down main street for endless uncontested dunks and layups. Do the Cave now have the personnel to stop that? Can Jeff Green plug last year's gaping hole to the rim? If there were a mean borderline violent backup center who gets bought out...that would help.
Well, they’ll be signing Perk, so help is on the way!
What the Cavs really need is a 1A scorer. They just don’t have the firepower to compete with secondary scorers like Curry or CP3.
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You should be careful about trusting media coverage of Cavs. Majority of these analysts are LeBrons puppets because they're afraid to lose access because he's a gigantic baby when it comes to criticism. For example they all said the Cavs won the trade for Kyrie even though it was obvious that we did.
That said, the trade in general should be positive for them because of George Hill. He's a really, really solid starter. I think I'd give up the entire garbage aging outgoing roster for just Hill... so it's clearly a win. TheY removed IT who was statistically the worst player in the league but thought he was Russell Westbrook and a bunch of other underperforming assets.
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I actually think the Cave should be favored in the East now. But may still get blown out by Houston or Golden State in the finals.
It will come down to defense. Last year the Warriors had players, mainly Durant, waltzing down main street for endless uncontested dunks and layups. Do the Cave now have the personnel to stop that? Can Jeff Green plug last year's gaping hole to the rim? If there were a mean borderline violent backup center who gets bought out...that would help.
Well, they’ll be signing Perk, so help is on the way!
What the Cavs really need is a 1A scorer. They just don’t have the firepower to compete with secondary scorers like Curry or CP3.
When did Curry become a secondary scorer? If anything, he's more important to the Warriors than KD.
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I think they're better on paper but will struggle to jell in time.
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I think they're better on paper but will struggle to jell in time.
Maybe better on paper but 3 of the 4 guys they got a super injury prone. I think all three have had multiple injuries this year alone.
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I actually think the Cave should be favored in the East now. But may still get blown out by Houston or Golden State in the finals.
It will come down to defense. Last year the Warriors had players, mainly Durant, waltzing down main street for endless uncontested dunks and layups. Do the Cave now have the personnel to stop that? Can Jeff Green plug last year's gaping hole to the rim? If there were a mean borderline violent backup center who gets bought out...that would help.
Well, they’ll be signing Perk, so help is on the way!
What the Cavs really need is a 1A scorer. They just don’t have the firepower to compete with secondary scorers like Curry or CP3.
Kevin Love is an excellent scorer. He isn't a dribble creator like many teams have, but Love has been very underrated as an offensive player the last 3.5 seasons when he has been relegated to a 3rd option behind two very ball dominant players. I mean as a #1 option in Minnesota, Love had 2 separate seasons of at least 26 ppg and right now at age 29 he should be at the very peak of his prime.