Is draymond being exposed?

[Moranis]

His qualities just aren't great at carrying poor teams. KG had a similar (but much more minor) problem when he was stuck with poor personnel in Minnesota, his passing, defence and shooting unlocked the potential of his teammates, but he couldn't ramp up his scoring if his teams needed a big time scorer who could score oodles of moderate to high efficiency points.

I think Draymond has declined from his 2015-2016 season (that year was nuts, he was a DPOY calibre defender who provided great complementary offensive value with efficient outside shooting on high volume and great passing), but he's still an All-NBA frontcourt player due to his defence (still insane) and passing (hasn't really declined).

This is crap. KG was an all-nba type of player even with mediocre teammates. The one season in minnesota where he got some borderline all-star teammates? He got MVP. Green is nowhere that.

That's why I said much more minor (Garnett could score really well, but he couldn't be an offensive anchor like Dirk/Duncan). What you're saying is crap if you don't see the similarities between prime Draymond and KG: both provided floor spacing, elite defence, great passing but imperfect scoring (obviously Draymond is much worse at scoring, that's why Garnett is an MVP player while Draymond is an All-NBA guy).

KG had difficulties in leading some Wolves teams that needed resilient playoff scoring to deep playoff runs while his contemporaries that had more floor-raising friendly games (Duncan, Dirk) lead some similar teams to deep playoff runs (eg. 03 Spurs, 06 Mavs). This is similar (although to a much larger degree) to what Draymond is experiencing right now: he's fantastic as a third/fourth banana in terms of scoring (KG would ideally be second, he's way better than Green at scoring) that'll raise the ceiling of teams through the roof, but will struggle to raise the floor of subpar teams that need a floor raiser who can do the heavy lifting, and in Draymond's case he can't do any significant floor raising at all due to his scoring regressing to craprastic levels (jumpshot is gone). This isn't Draymond getting exposed, this is him in the worst situation possible for his skillset. It doesnt change the fact that he's still an All-NBA calibre player (maybe All-Star if you look at him in a more negative light) due to his unique skillset, even after his regression into a non-shooter.

Disagree. KG was very hard to guard, its just that he wasn't that too willing to shoot. The difference between the two is huge. He is inferior to KG in almost every tangible stat there is.

I see Draymond as a premium Marcus Smart, not as KG-lite. That is an insult to KG who is undoubtedly a top 5 player in his era (which Draymond is nowhere near)

Very difficult to guard doesn't mean that he could socre like an elite centrepiece though. And I guess we'll agree to disagree, I think Draymond's skillset is very similar to KG's when you factor in the massive scoring difference.

Uhh... What? Lol. How is KG not considered an elite scoring big? Do you consider Tim Duncan an elite scoring centerpiece? Because numbers wise, KG/TD are pretty much close.

Anyways let's agree to disagree... Draymond's defensive skill set is similar to KG, but offensively? Other than passing they really don't share anything in common... Like at all.

He really wasn't as good as Duncan at scoring, especially against stingier playoff defences. Look at his playoff stats and you'll see that his scoring wasn't as resilient. He's not elite when he's compared to the best scoring bigs of all time, he's a rung below those guys.

And I don't think that prime Draymond was all that different from KG offensively. He had a good three point shot and could pass, that's basically KG's skillset without the post game and really good isolation scoring.

TD benefited from having one of the greatest coaches of all time, and HoFer's/better teammates. It allowed him the ability to post down low, and make defenses suffer double teaming him, something KG didn't have much of a luxury in his Minnesota time. Also the only year Dray shot league average or above was 2015-2016, and that was 38.8% which is pretty solid. But other than passing, Dray has nothing in common with KG offensively, like at all... Lol...

Anyways, let's agree to disagree.

Flip isn't Pop, but Flip was a very good coach and clearly TD had better teammates than KG, but KG's skill set was always best suited as a #2.  May very well have been the best #2 in history, but that really was what he was.  He just wasn't a #1 type guy (talent wise he was but not skill set).  He had his greatest success when he was surrounded by guys like Cassell, Spreewell, Pierce, and Allen i.e. #1 type skill set players.  KG was better than all of those guys, but he needed a guy that could handle being #1 because that quite simply wasn't KG.

[Somebody]

His qualities just aren't great at carrying poor teams. KG had a similar (but much more minor) problem when he was stuck with poor personnel in Minnesota, his passing, defence and shooting unlocked the potential of his teammates, but he couldn't ramp up his scoring if his teams needed a big time scorer who could score oodles of moderate to high efficiency points.

I think Draymond has declined from his 2015-2016 season (that year was nuts, he was a DPOY calibre defender who provided great complementary offensive value with efficient outside shooting on high volume and great passing), but he's still an All-NBA frontcourt player due to his defence (still insane) and passing (hasn't really declined).

This is crap. KG was an all-nba type of player even with mediocre teammates. The one season in minnesota where he got some borderline all-star teammates? He got MVP. Green is nowhere that.

That's why I said much more minor (Garnett could score really well, but he couldn't be an offensive anchor like Dirk/Duncan). What you're saying is crap if you don't see the similarities between prime Draymond and KG: both provided floor spacing, elite defence, great passing but imperfect scoring (obviously Draymond is much worse at scoring, that's why Garnett is an MVP player while Draymond is an All-NBA guy).

KG had difficulties in leading some Wolves teams that needed resilient playoff scoring to deep playoff runs while his contemporaries that had more floor-raising friendly games (Duncan, Dirk) lead some similar teams to deep playoff runs (eg. 03 Spurs, 06 Mavs). This is similar (although to a much larger degree) to what Draymond is experiencing right now: he's fantastic as a third/fourth banana in terms of scoring (KG would ideally be second, he's way better than Green at scoring) that'll raise the ceiling of teams through the roof, but will struggle to raise the floor of subpar teams that need a floor raiser who can do the heavy lifting, and in Draymond's case he can't do any significant floor raising at all due to his scoring regressing to craprastic levels (jumpshot is gone). This isn't Draymond getting exposed, this is him in the worst situation possible for his skillset. It doesnt change the fact that he's still an All-NBA calibre player (maybe All-Star if you look at him in a more negative light) due to his unique skillset, even after his regression into a non-shooter.

Disagree. KG was very hard to guard, its just that he wasn't that too willing to shoot. The difference between the two is huge. He is inferior to KG in almost every tangible stat there is.

I see Draymond as a premium Marcus Smart, not as KG-lite. That is an insult to KG who is undoubtedly a top 5 player in his era (which Draymond is nowhere near)

Very difficult to guard doesn't mean that he could socre like an elite centrepiece though. And I guess we'll agree to disagree, I think Draymond's skillset is very similar to KG's when you factor in the massive scoring difference.

Uhh... What? Lol. How is KG not considered an elite scoring big? Do you consider Tim Duncan an elite scoring centerpiece? Because numbers wise, KG/TD are pretty much close.

Anyways let's agree to disagree... Draymond's defensive skill set is similar to KG, but offensively? Other than passing they really don't share anything in common... Like at all.

He really wasn't as good as Duncan at scoring, especially against stingier playoff defences. Look at his playoff stats and you'll see that his scoring wasn't as resilient. He's not elite when he's compared to the best scoring bigs of all time, he's a rung below those guys.

And I don't think that prime Draymond was all that different from KG offensively. He had a good three point shot and could pass, that's basically KG's skillset without the post game and really good isolation scoring.

TD benefited from having one of the greatest coaches of all time, and HoFer's/better teammates. It allowed him the ability to post down low, and make defenses suffer double teaming him, something KG didn't have much of a luxury in his Minnesota time. Also the only year Dray shot league average or above was 2015-2016, and that was 38.8% which is pretty solid. But other than passing, Dray has nothing in common with KG offensively, like at all... Lol...

Anyways, let's agree to disagree.

Flip isn't Pop, but Flip was a very good coach and clearly TD had better teammates than KG, but KG's skill set was always best suited as a #2.  May very well have been the best #2 in history, but that really was what he was.  He just wasn't a #1 type guy (talent wise he was but not skill set).  He had his greatest success when he was surrounded by guys like Cassell, Spreewell, Pierce, and Allen i.e. #1 type skill set players.  KG was better than all of those guys, but he needed a guy that could handle being #1 because that quite simply wasn't KG.

^this. It doesn't make KG worse than TD (I actually rate KG's prime higher than TD's), it just means that he wasn't a guy who could carry an insanely heavy offensive load against the stingiest of defences.

[RockinRyA]

The amount of disrespect KG is getting on this thread is ridiculous. Like sure, KG might not have the closer mentality, or might be a bit worse than TD. But to be described as Draymond Green with better offense is an insult. Green never averaged double figures in rebounds, while KG did for 9 seasons and even led the league in some.

[Moranis]

The amount of disrespect KG is getting on this thread is ridiculous. Like sure, KG might not have the closer mentality, or might be a bit worse than TD. But to be described as Draymond Green with better offense is an insult. Green never averaged double figures in rebounds, while KG did for 9 seasons and even led the league in some.

Oh I agree with this.  KG was hands down a better and more impactful player than Green ever was.  I certainly didn't mean my comment to come off that way if it did.  I was more commenting on the notion that KG was a #1 guy.  He wasn't in skill set (not ability, he was clearly a #1 in ability).  Someone like Green is at his best a #3 guy both in skill set and ability. 

[Who]

Smart should be compared to players like Raja Bell. Not guys like Draymond Green. Smart is nowhere near guys like Draymond.

Raja Bell at his peak was a top 10 SG (as is Smart today) because of how well rounded and efficient his game was. Like Smart, Bell was an elite defensive SG (first team All Defense) who had good defensive versatility (PG, SG, SF for Bell). Bell was a superior shooter to Smart at 40+% from three point range and also finished among the league leaders in both attempts and makes.

Bell, like Smart, was also an above average ball-handler and passer for a shooting guard. Larry Brown was intent on training Bell to become a PG for the 76ers to help provide defensive balance alongside Allen Iverson. He had the ball-handling, decision making and passing necessary to initiate the offense and could then move into a more secondary role allowing Iverson to take-over while also giving Philly legit size defensively to matchup against opposing SGs giving a break to the smaller Eric Snow. Smart offers some better playmaking and driving ability relative to Bell to offset some of Bell's offensive advantages as an outside shooter.

As a rebounder, Bell while fundamentally solid was behind the likes of Marcus Smart. Not as able in matching up / boxing out bigger body players and competing for rebounds in traffic.



Now to Draymond Green ...



Draymond Green was the best defensive PF in the league for several years running. Winning the DPoY once. He was the best defender on multiple title winning teams. He was the main rebounder leading rebounder on multiple title winning teams. Several times leading all players in total rebounds in the playoffs. During this stretch, Draymond Green was also the best or 2nd best (Blake Griffin?) ball-handling PF in the league. And the best passing / playmaking PF in the league.

In addition to this, Draymond Green had the defensive versatility to be able to matchup against centers. Against much taller and often stronger players. Allowing Golden State to put a lineup on the floor that was nearly impossible to stop from scoring the ball. 5 offensive threats who can all dribble, pass and shoot. Stretching out the floor and making it impossible for opponents to double up on Steph Curry & Klay Thompson without leaving someone wide open in acres of space to attack and make a play. This defensive versatility gave Golden State a huge advantage over opponents.

Just take a moment and look at how huge those non-scoring contributions are:
(1) DPoY level defense
(2) leading rebounder on title winning teams & for playoffs
(3) 1st or 2nd on team in assists as a PF and often finished top five in total assists in the playoffs as a PF
(4) Lineup versatility due to defensive versatility that allowed his team to create huge advantages over opposing teams in terms of offensive flexibility while maintaining defensive integrity.


Those non-scoring contributions are absolutely massive.



They far outweigh anything Smart or Raja Bell are able to bring to the table. They give nowhere near the rebounding contributions. They give nowhere near the playmaking (especially relative to position / opponent) contributions. Both are standout defenders but neither were / are a defensive anchor. Nor do they create the type of lineup flexibility that gives their team a monumental advantage over opponents.

[Who]

I haven't been watching the Warriors this year because their team sucks. I dislike D'Angelo Russell and outside of WCS the rest of their team is a D-league level roster. LeBron wouldn't get that team to .500. Nevermind someone like Draymond Green.

Just looking at Draymond's numbers, it sure looks to me like he is not giving full effort. That he is going through the motions. The low field goal attempts (aggressiveness) and lower rebounding numbers (effort play).

It was one thing to shoot so little to maintain team balance when Durant came on board but it is another thing entirely to be doing so now. That is ridiculous. He needs to get back to pre-Durant levels and then up those numbers because Steph and Klay are not around. They need Draymond shooting 12-14 times a game until Steph comes back (if he does).

The drop in minutes and lack of playing time at center also says the coach is going through the motions too with Draymond. Kerr doesn't want to push him hard. Draymond should be playing 34-36mpg with Steph and Klay out. He is only getting 28mpg. And lineup data says that almost all of his minutes are coming at forward and not center. That detracts from Draymond's value. Looks to me like a coach who has given up and is trying to avoid Draymond getting hurt / running him down since the team isn't playing for a title this season.

[wiley]

although I favor players who go all out all the time...KG, Smart...etc.  Under the circumstances I find it completely appropriate for Green not to overextend himself this season....after so many trips through the entire playoffs...and nothing to play for this year aside from a nice draft pick. 

[droopdog7]

I guess it depends on your expectations for him in the first place.  Green was always a superstar glue guy.  But thinking that he could in any way carry a team was off from the start.  In addition to that, his surrounding cast is plain awful so I'm not sure anyone outside of the top 5 players could do much more.

[celticsclay]

Smart should be compared to players like Raja Bell. Not guys like Draymond Green. Smart is nowhere near guys like Draymond.

Raja Bell at his peak was a top 10 SG (as is Smart today) because of how well rounded and efficient his game was. Like Smart, Bell was an elite defensive SG (first team All Defense) who had good defensive versatility (PG, SG, SF for Bell). Bell was a superior shooter to Smart at 40+% from three point range and also finished among the league leaders in both attempts and makes.

Bell, like Smart, was also an above average ball-handler and passer for a shooting guard. Larry Brown was intent on training Bell to become a PG for the 76ers to help provide defensive balance alongside Allen Iverson. He had the ball-handling, decision making and passing necessary to initiate the offense and could then move into a more secondary role allowing Iverson to take-over while also giving Philly legit size defensively to matchup against opposing SGs giving a break to the smaller Eric Snow. Smart offers some better playmaking and driving ability relative to Bell to offset some of Bell's offensive advantages as an outside shooter.

As a rebounder, Bell while fundamentally solid was behind the likes of Marcus Smart. Not as able in matching up / boxing out bigger body players and competing for rebounds in traffic.



Now to Draymond Green ...



Draymond Green was the best defensive PF in the league for several years running. Winning the DPoY once. He was the best defender on multiple title winning teams. He was the main rebounder leading rebounder on multiple title winning teams. Several times leading all players in total rebounds in the playoffs. During this stretch, Draymond Green was also the best or 2nd best (Blake Griffin?) ball-handling PF in the league. And the best passing / playmaking PF in the league.

In addition to this, Draymond Green had the defensive versatility to be able to matchup against centers. Against much taller and often stronger players. Allowing Golden State to put a lineup on the floor that was nearly impossible to stop from scoring the ball. 5 offensive threats who can all dribble, pass and shoot. Stretching out the floor and making it impossible for opponents to double up on Steph Curry & Klay Thompson without leaving someone wide open in acres of space to attack and make a play. This defensive versatility gave Golden State a huge advantage over opponents.

Just take a moment and look at how huge those non-scoring contributions are:
(1) DPoY level defense
(2) leading rebounder on title winning teams & for playoffs
(3) 1st or 2nd on team in assists as a PF and often finished top five in total assists in the playoffs as a PF
(4) Lineup versatility due to defensive versatility that allowed his team to create huge advantages over opposing teams in terms of offensive flexibility while maintaining defensive integrity.


Those non-scoring contributions are absolutely massive.



They far outweigh anything Smart or Raja Bell are able to bring to the table. They give nowhere near the rebounding contributions. They give nowhere near the playmaking (especially relative to position / opponent) contributions. Both are standout defenders but neither were / are a defensive anchor. Nor do they create the type of lineup flexibility that gives their team a monumental advantage over opponents.

I feel like some of this rebounding is overselling Draymond a bit. You are making him sound like Dennis Rodman. He has been averaging between 9-10.5 rebounds in the playoffs in about 40 minutes a game. Al Horford, who most of us acknowledge as a pretty average rebounder, averaged 9 last year in the playoffs in just 34 minutes.

Raja Bell is also underselling Smart quite a bit. Bell made one all-second defensive team and one first team in his 14 year career. Smart has already made one-first team all defensive and seems very like to end up with 4-5 appearances on one of the teams. Smart has already exceeded Bell's career best season in rebound average and assist average by a significant margin (his 4.5 assists so far this season is almost double Bell's 2.5 career high). The 1.8 steals Smart average is also more than double Bell's career high of .8. Let's come up with a little more fair comparison for Smart who is just entering his prime at 25...

[nickagneta]

I look at Smart as being like a Milwaukee era Alvin Robertson.

[Who]

I look at Smart as being like a Milwaukee era Alvin Robertson.

I don't think Smart is as dynamic as Robertson (on either end of the court). Smart reminds me more of an old Dennis Johnson (in terms of that era).

It's a pity Smart didn't get to play in the hand checking era. He would've been a monster defensively. Gone down as one of the best defensive PGs ever.

[Who]

Smart should be compared to players like Raja Bell. Not guys like Draymond Green. Smart is nowhere near guys like Draymond.

Raja Bell at his peak was a top 10 SG (as is Smart today) because of how well rounded and efficient his game was. Like Smart, Bell was an elite defensive SG (first team All Defense) who had good defensive versatility (PG, SG, SF for Bell). Bell was a superior shooter to Smart at 40+% from three point range and also finished among the league leaders in both attempts and makes.

Bell, like Smart, was also an above average ball-handler and passer for a shooting guard. Larry Brown was intent on training Bell to become a PG for the 76ers to help provide defensive balance alongside Allen Iverson. He had the ball-handling, decision making and passing necessary to initiate the offense and could then move into a more secondary role allowing Iverson to take-over while also giving Philly legit size defensively to matchup against opposing SGs giving a break to the smaller Eric Snow. Smart offers some better playmaking and driving ability relative to Bell to offset some of Bell's offensive advantages as an outside shooter.

As a rebounder, Bell while fundamentally solid was behind the likes of Marcus Smart. Not as able in matching up / boxing out bigger body players and competing for rebounds in traffic.



Now to Draymond Green ...



Draymond Green was the best defensive PF in the league for several years running. Winning the DPoY once. He was the best defender on multiple title winning teams. He was the main rebounder leading rebounder on multiple title winning teams. Several times leading all players in total rebounds in the playoffs. During this stretch, Draymond Green was also the best or 2nd best (Blake Griffin?) ball-handling PF in the league. And the best passing / playmaking PF in the league.

In addition to this, Draymond Green had the defensive versatility to be able to matchup against centers. Against much taller and often stronger players. Allowing Golden State to put a lineup on the floor that was nearly impossible to stop from scoring the ball. 5 offensive threats who can all dribble, pass and shoot. Stretching out the floor and making it impossible for opponents to double up on Steph Curry & Klay Thompson without leaving someone wide open in acres of space to attack and make a play. This defensive versatility gave Golden State a huge advantage over opponents.

Just take a moment and look at how huge those non-scoring contributions are:
(1) DPoY level defense
(2) leading rebounder on title winning teams & for playoffs
(3) 1st or 2nd on team in assists as a PF and often finished top five in total assists in the playoffs as a PF
(4) Lineup versatility due to defensive versatility that allowed his team to create huge advantages over opposing teams in terms of offensive flexibility while maintaining defensive integrity.


Those non-scoring contributions are absolutely massive.



They far outweigh anything Smart or Raja Bell are able to bring to the table. They give nowhere near the rebounding contributions. They give nowhere near the playmaking (especially relative to position / opponent) contributions. Both are standout defenders but neither were / are a defensive anchor. Nor do they create the type of lineup flexibility that gives their team a monumental advantage over opponents.

I feel like some of this rebounding is overselling Draymond a bit. You are making him sound like Dennis Rodman. He has been averaging between 9-10.5 rebounds in the playoffs in about 40 minutes a game. Al Horford, who most of us acknowledge as a pretty average rebounder, averaged 9 last year in the playoffs in just 34 minutes.

Raja Bell is also underselling Smart quite a bit. Bell made one all-second defensive team and one first team in his 14 year career. Smart has already made one-first team all defensive and seems very like to end up with 4-5 appearances on one of the teams. Smart has already exceeded Bell's career best season in rebound average and assist average by a significant margin (his 4.5 assists so far this season is almost double Bell's 2.5 career high). The 1.8 steals Smart average is also more than double Bell's career high of .8. Let's come up with a little more fair comparison for Smart who is just entering his prime at 25...

Not Dennis Rodman level rebounding. More like Horace Grant level rebounding. The first three peat Bulls team. That is very valuable. To be a board-getter of that caliber. To be the main the guy counted on for physical toughness / interior play. To be the main guy tasked with battling all of the other giant big men that their teams (CHI, GSW) come up against.

Horford did that for Boston too. I loved what Horford brought to the table. Comparing Horford to Draymond is fair. Those two share similarities.

Not Smart though. Smart is valuable but he is nowhere near as valuable as either Horford or Draymond. Smart's value is more similar to Iguodala of the last 2-3 years.

On Raja Bell, I guess we just disagree on his relative value. I rate him higher than you do I am guessing. As I said, I rate Raja as a top 10 SG over several years at his peak (as I do Smart in today's league).