Jarrett Allen

[Jvalin]

We have Theis, Thompson and Williams at center.  Danny probably decided that he’d rather use our draft capital and TPE on more of a position of need.

Gimme Allen over any of our bigs. Imo, Allen has a higher floor than Timelord. He's also a better fit in our defensive system, although it's hard to tell cause the Nets were using him in a drop scheme. Timelord possibly has a higher upside than Allen.

I'd happily surrender our first (+Theis if the Rockets wanted him) for Allen. Prince ain't terrible either. I bet he would have been a starter for us (at least till Kemba comes back).

Smart - Brown - Prince - Tatum - Allen

or

Smart - Brown - Tatum - Prince - Allen

[pearljammer10]

Allen seems more attractive but he doesn’t bring anything different than what Theis and Williams can provide. Let alone Thompson. Theis is underrated and can stretch the floor.

Plus, Allen will probably command something in the 16-20 million dollar range next year and going forward. I have no interest in paying him that.

[Somebody]

We have Theis, Thompson and Williams at center.  Danny probably decided that he’d rather use our draft capital and TPE on more of a position of need.

Gimme Allen over any of our bigs. Imo, Allen has a higher floor than Timelord. He's also a better fit in our defensive system, altough it's hard to tell cause the Nets use him in a drop scheme. Timelord possibly has a higher upside than Allen.

Allen is really tall (he's a legitimate 6'11 big from the barefoot NBA height measurements carried out last preseason), I have doubts over his ability to shuffle his feet like an athletic 6'8-6'10 forward-centre on the perimeter so imo a drop scheme is perfect for him.

[RJ87]

Allen seems more attractive but he doesn’t bring anything different than what Theis and Williams can provide. Let alone Thompson. Theis is underrated and can stretch the floor.

Plus, Allen will probably command something in the 16-20 million dollar range next year and going forward. I have no interest in paying him that.

I feel like it's a case of Jarrett just being shinier because he's on a different team. He's a solid player for sure, starting caliber absolutely. But he's not altering the course of your franchise.

[Jvalin]

We have Theis, Thompson and Williams at center.  Danny probably decided that he’d rather use our draft capital and TPE on more of a position of need.

Gimme Allen over any of our bigs. Imo, Allen has a higher floor than Timelord. He's also a better fit in our defensive system, altough it's hard to tell cause the Nets use him in a drop scheme. Timelord possibly has a higher upside than Allen.

Allen is really tall (he's a legitimate 6'11 big from the barefoot NBA height measurements carried out last preseason), I have doubts over his ability to shuffle his feet like an athletic 6'8-6'10 forward-centre on the perimeter so imo a drop scheme is perfect for him.

Based on his combine measurements, Allen is 6' 9'' without shoes with a 7' 5.25'' wingspan! Theis never attended the combine. He's somewhere around 6'8''. No idea what his wingspan is. I bet it's smaller than 7' 5.25''.

[Somebody]

We have Theis, Thompson and Williams at center.  Danny probably decided that he’d rather use our draft capital and TPE on more of a position of need.

Gimme Allen over any of our bigs. Imo, Allen has a higher floor than Timelord. He's also a better fit in our defensive system, altough it's hard to tell cause the Nets use him in a drop scheme. Timelord possibly has a higher upside than Allen.

Allen is really tall (he's a legitimate 6'11 big from the barefoot NBA height measurements carried out last preseason), I have doubts over his ability to shuffle his feet like an athletic 6'8-6'10 forward-centre on the perimeter so imo a drop scheme is perfect for him.

Based on his combine measurements, Allen is 6' 9'' without shoes with a 7' 5.25'' wingspan! Theis never attended the combine. He's somewhere around 6'8''. No idea what his wingspan is. I bet it's smaller than 7' 5.25''.

Yeah and he likely grew: NBA height measurements were conducted barefoot last preseason and Allen is listed at 6'11. Btw I could've sworn that I've read an article somewhere saying that Theis' wingspan is 7'4, but I couldn't find it now. Probably my memory playing tricks on me, but I think we can all agree that Theis is quite long for his height based on the eye test.

[Jvalin]

We have Theis, Thompson and Williams at center.  Danny probably decided that he’d rather use our draft capital and TPE on more of a position of need.

Gimme Allen over any of our bigs. Imo, Allen has a higher floor than Timelord. He's also a better fit in our defensive system, altough it's hard to tell cause the Nets use him in a drop scheme. Timelord possibly has a higher upside than Allen.

Allen is really tall (he's a legitimate 6'11 big from the barefoot NBA height measurements carried out last preseason), I have doubts over his ability to shuffle his feet like an athletic 6'8-6'10 forward-centre on the perimeter so imo a drop scheme is perfect for him.

Based on his combine measurements, Allen is 6' 9'' without shoes with a 7' 5.25'' wingspan! Theis never attended the combine. He's somewhere around 6'8''. No idea what his wingspan is. I bet it's smaller than 7' 5.25''.

Yeah and he likely grew: NBA height measurements were conducted barefoot last preseason and Allen is listed at 6'11. Btw I could've sworn that I've read an article somewhere saying that Theis' wingspan is 7'4, but I couldn't find it now. Probably my memory playing tricks on me, but I think we can all agree that Theis is quite long for his height based on the eye test.

Maybe he's 6'11'' with the fro! 

[Roy H.]

Per 100 Possessions:

Allen:  19.6 points, 18.3 rebounds, 2.8 blocks

Timelord: 19.8 points, 19.0 rebounds,  4.4 blocks, 101 DRtg

Thompson: 17.4 points, 17.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 111 DRtg

Theis: 15.8 points, 9.6 rebounds, 2.1 blocks, 112 DRtg

Theis (last year):  18.5 points, 13.1 rebounds, 2.6 blocks, 105 DRtg

I’m just not sure what difference Allen would make.  He seems quite duplicative.

[Vermont Green]

I am not sweating missing out on Jarrett Allen.  A decent young player with some upside but not a big needle mover at this point.

I see us as having two players that are really only centers, Thompson and RWilliams and 3 players that can play PF, Theis, Ojeleye, and GWilliams, but none of them are really natural PFs.  I think Theis is more suited to PF than center but he can play either of course.  I see Ojeleye and GWilliams as tweeners who are barely PFs, certainly not centers.

Note, I checked the line up stats and Thompson and RWilliams have not been on the court together all season.  Neither have Theis and RWilliams.  Thompson + Theis 222 min, Thompson + GWill 35 min and Thompson + Ojeleye 24 min total for the season.  Theis + GWill 50 min and Theis + Ojeleye 52 min.  To me, this adds up to Thompson and RWilliams are centers, Theis can play both but mostly plays PF, and GWill and Ojeleye play mostly PF.

[Jvalin]

Per 100 Possessions:

Allen:  19.6 points, 18.3 rebounds, 2.8 blocks

Timelord: 19.8 points, 19.0 rebounds,  4.4 blocks, 101 DRtg

Thompson: 17.4 points, 17.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 111 DRtg

Theis: 15.8 points, 9.6 rebounds, 2.1 blocks, 112 DRtg

Theis (last year):  18.5 points, 13.1 rebounds, 2.6 blocks, 105 DRtg

I’m just not sure what difference Allen would make.  He seems quite duplicative.

I posted this in the other thread too, but I'm reposting it here to address your question.

Timelord ain't a good fit in our defensive system. The way our PnR defense works, Theis/Thompson meet the opposing ball handler at the level of dribble hand off and deny penetration. Timelord ain't got the lateral quicks to play D on the perimeter, hence he drops back and protects the rim. To put it another way, whenever Timelord is on the court, we have to change our defensive system. The C's are built around Tatum and Brown. They are both versatile defenders who can guard multiple positions. If we want to maximize their effectiveness, we gotta be starting a big man who can switch ball screens on the perimeter.

Is Jarrett Allen a good perimeter defender? Hard to tell, cause the Nets were using him in a drop scheme, just like we do with Timelord. Imo, he's a better perimeter defender than Timelord, but worse than Theis and Thompson.

[Roy H.]

Per 100 Possessions:

Allen:  19.6 points, 18.3 rebounds, 2.8 blocks

Timelord: 19.8 points, 19.0 rebounds,  4.4 blocks, 101 DRtg

Thompson: 17.4 points, 17.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 111 DRtg

Theis: 15.8 points, 9.6 rebounds, 2.1 blocks, 112 DRtg

Theis (last year):  18.5 points, 13.1 rebounds, 2.6 blocks, 105 DRtg

I’m just not sure what difference Allen would make.  He seems quite duplicative.

I posted this in the other thread too, but I'm reposting it here to address your question.

Timelord ain't a good fit in our defensive system. The way our PnR defense works, Theis/Thompson meet the opposing ball handler at the level of dribble hand off and deny penetration. Timelord ain't got the lateral quicks to play D on the perimeter, hence he drops back and protects the rim. To put it another way, whenever Timelord is on the court, we have to change our defensive system. The C's are built around Tatum and Brown. They are both versatile defenders who can guard multiple positions. If we want to maximize their effectiveness, we gotta start a big man who can play D on the perimeter.

Is Jarrett Allen a good perimeter defender? Hard to say, cause the Nets were using him in a drop scheme, just like we do with Timelord. Imo, he's a better perimeter defender than Timelord, but worse than Theis and Thompson.

Is his defense a problem?  Our defensive has been excellent — elite, even — with him in the game.  He is obviously still learning, but the progress he has made is remarkable.

I’m curious, why do you make the assumption that Williams plays in a drop scheme because that’s the only thing he can do well, but don’t apply the same standard to Allen? Allen has had way more games and more years in the league to figure it out, but still doesn’t switch on the perimeter. 

What I like about Williams is that his production has increased every year so far. That’s not the case with Allen, who has been remarkably consistent on a permanent basis since his rookie season.

Timelord is outproducing Allen now, and has higher potential. He also has only been in the league three years, compared to four for Allen.


I just don’t understand where you are seeing separation. Their size is similar, their athleticism and speed are similar, their production is similar.  The only major differences are that Williams has a year longer on his contract, and that Williams has already shown that he fits into this team. Where are you seeing a gap that justifies Theis and a first rounder?

[Jvalin]

Per 100 Possessions:

Allen:  19.6 points, 18.3 rebounds, 2.8 blocks

Timelord: 19.8 points, 19.0 rebounds,  4.4 blocks, 101 DRtg

Thompson: 17.4 points, 17.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 111 DRtg

Theis: 15.8 points, 9.6 rebounds, 2.1 blocks, 112 DRtg

Theis (last year):  18.5 points, 13.1 rebounds, 2.6 blocks, 105 DRtg

I’m just not sure what difference Allen would make.  He seems quite duplicative.

I posted this in the other thread too, but I'm reposting it here to address your question.

Timelord ain't a good fit in our defensive system. The way our PnR defense works, Theis/Thompson meet the opposing ball handler at the level of dribble hand off and deny penetration. Timelord ain't got the lateral quicks to play D on the perimeter, hence he drops back and protects the rim. To put it another way, whenever Timelord is on the court, we have to change our defensive system. The C's are built around Tatum and Brown. They are both versatile defenders who can guard multiple positions. If we want to maximize their effectiveness, we gotta start a big man who can play D on the perimeter.

Is Jarrett Allen a good perimeter defender? Hard to say, cause the Nets were using him in a drop scheme, just like we do with Timelord. Imo, he's a better perimeter defender than Timelord, but worse than Theis and Thompson.

Is his defense a problem?  Our defensive has been excellent — elite, even — with him in the game.  He is obviously still learning, but the progress he has made is remarkable.

I’m curious, why do you make the assumption that Williams plays in a drop scheme because that’s the only thing he can do well, but don’t apply the same standard to Allen? Allen has had way more games and more years in the league to figure it out, but still doesn’t switch on the perimeter. 

What I like about Williams is that his production has increased every year so far. That’s not the case with Allen, who has been remarkably consistent on a permanent basis since his rookie season.

Timelord is outproducing Allen now, and has higher potential. He also has only been in the league three years, compared to four for Allen.


I just don’t understand where you are seeing separation. Their size is similar, their athleticism and speed are similar, their production is similar.  The only major differences are that Williams has a year longer on his contract, and that Williams has already shown that he fits into this team. Where are you seeing a gap that justifies Theis and a first rounder?

No he doesn't. Unfortunately, he can't play D on the perimeter. Imo, this is the one thing that holds him back. Had he been a better perimeter defender, he would have probably become our starting Center by now. In a vacuum, I really believe he's our best Center.

Each team runs a different defensive scheme. The C's have 2 amazing switchable wings, hence our starting unit is switching pretty much everything on defense. Do I think that Allen would have been the perfect fit for us? Certainly not. I believe he's at his best when used in a drop scheme. That being said, imo he's a better perimeter defender than Timelord.

Where are you seeing a gap that justifies Theis and a first rounder?

Theis + BOS 2021 first for Allen + Prince

Prince plays a position of need for us. He ain't a world-beater, but he ain't terrible either. I bet he would have been starting at the swing positions till Kemba and Romeo come back.

[Roy H.]

Per 100 Possessions:

Allen:  19.6 points, 18.3 rebounds, 2.8 blocks

Timelord: 19.8 points, 19.0 rebounds,  4.4 blocks, 101 DRtg

Thompson: 17.4 points, 17.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 111 DRtg

Theis: 15.8 points, 9.6 rebounds, 2.1 blocks, 112 DRtg

Theis (last year):  18.5 points, 13.1 rebounds, 2.6 blocks, 105 DRtg

I’m just not sure what difference Allen would make.  He seems quite duplicative.

I posted this in the other thread too, but I'm reposting it here to address your question.

Timelord ain't a good fit in our defensive system. The way our PnR defense works, Theis/Thompson meet the opposing ball handler at the level of dribble hand off and deny penetration. Timelord ain't got the lateral quicks to play D on the perimeter, hence he drops back and protects the rim. To put it another way, whenever Timelord is on the court, we have to change our defensive system. The C's are built around Tatum and Brown. They are both versatile defenders who can guard multiple positions. If we want to maximize their effectiveness, we gotta start a big man who can play D on the perimeter.

Is Jarrett Allen a good perimeter defender? Hard to say, cause the Nets were using him in a drop scheme, just like we do with Timelord. Imo, he's a better perimeter defender than Timelord, but worse than Theis and Thompson.

Is his defense a problem?  Our defensive has been excellent — elite, even — with him in the game.  He is obviously still learning, but the progress he has made is remarkable.

I’m curious, why do you make the assumption that Williams plays in a drop scheme because that’s the only thing he can do well, but don’t apply the same standard to Allen? Allen has had way more games and more years in the league to figure it out, but still doesn’t switch on the perimeter. 

What I like about Williams is that his production has increased every year so far. That’s not the case with Allen, who has been remarkably consistent on a permanent basis since his rookie season.

Timelord is outproducing Allen now, and has higher potential. He also has only been in the league three years, compared to four for Allen.


I just don’t understand where you are seeing separation. Their size is similar, their athleticism and speed are similar, their production is similar.  The only major differences are that Williams has a year longer on his contract, and that Williams has already shown that he fits into this team. Where are you seeing a gap that justifies Theis and a first rounder?

No he doesn't. Unfortunately, he can't play D on the perimeter. Imo, this is the one thing that holds him back. Had he been a better perimeter defender, he would have probably become our starting Center by now. In a vacuum, I really believe he's our best Center.

Each team runs a different defensive scheme. The C's have 2 amazing switchable wings, hence our starting unit is switching pretty much everything on defense. Do I think that Allen would have been the perfect fit for us? Certainly not. I believe he's at his best when used in a drop scheme. That being said, imo he's a better perimeter defender than Timelord.

Where are you seeing a gap that justifies Theis and a first rounder?

Theis + BOS 2021 first for Allen + Prince

Prince ain't a world-beater, but he ain't terrible either. Plus, he plays a position of need for us. I bet he would have been starting at the swing positions till Kemba and Romeo come back.

OK, so we are trading our best center at perimeter defense, plus a 1st, plus taking on $13 million in salary next year (in turn, using up $13 million of the TPE and pushing us near the luxury tax line) for ...  what?  A mediocre wing and a center who is inferior to Robert Williams in a drop scheme and who is a lesser defender on the perimeter than either Thompson or Theis (and arguably Williams)?

This isn’t even a lateral move. It is potentially a team-killing one with the salary implications.

[Jvalin]

Per 100 Possessions:

Allen:  19.6 points, 18.3 rebounds, 2.8 blocks

Timelord: 19.8 points, 19.0 rebounds,  4.4 blocks, 101 DRtg

Thompson: 17.4 points, 17.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 111 DRtg

Theis: 15.8 points, 9.6 rebounds, 2.1 blocks, 112 DRtg

Theis (last year):  18.5 points, 13.1 rebounds, 2.6 blocks, 105 DRtg

I’m just not sure what difference Allen would make.  He seems quite duplicative.

I posted this in the other thread too, but I'm reposting it here to address your question.

Timelord ain't a good fit in our defensive system. The way our PnR defense works, Theis/Thompson meet the opposing ball handler at the level of dribble hand off and deny penetration. Timelord ain't got the lateral quicks to play D on the perimeter, hence he drops back and protects the rim. To put it another way, whenever Timelord is on the court, we have to change our defensive system. The C's are built around Tatum and Brown. They are both versatile defenders who can guard multiple positions. If we want to maximize their effectiveness, we gotta start a big man who can play D on the perimeter.

Is Jarrett Allen a good perimeter defender? Hard to say, cause the Nets were using him in a drop scheme, just like we do with Timelord. Imo, he's a better perimeter defender than Timelord, but worse than Theis and Thompson.

Is his defense a problem?  Our defensive has been excellent — elite, even — with him in the game.  He is obviously still learning, but the progress he has made is remarkable.

I’m curious, why do you make the assumption that Williams plays in a drop scheme because that’s the only thing he can do well, but don’t apply the same standard to Allen? Allen has had way more games and more years in the league to figure it out, but still doesn’t switch on the perimeter. 

What I like about Williams is that his production has increased every year so far. That’s not the case with Allen, who has been remarkably consistent on a permanent basis since his rookie season.

Timelord is outproducing Allen now, and has higher potential. He also has only been in the league three years, compared to four for Allen.


I just don’t understand where you are seeing separation. Their size is similar, their athleticism and speed are similar, their production is similar.  The only major differences are that Williams has a year longer on his contract, and that Williams has already shown that he fits into this team. Where are you seeing a gap that justifies Theis and a first rounder?

No he doesn't. Unfortunately, he can't play D on the perimeter. Imo, this is the one thing that holds him back. Had he been a better perimeter defender, he would have probably become our starting Center by now. In a vacuum, I really believe he's our best Center.

Each team runs a different defensive scheme. The C's have 2 amazing switchable wings, hence our starting unit is switching pretty much everything on defense. Do I think that Allen would have been the perfect fit for us? Certainly not. I believe he's at his best when used in a drop scheme. That being said, imo he's a better perimeter defender than Timelord.

Where are you seeing a gap that justifies Theis and a first rounder?

Theis + BOS 2021 first for Allen + Prince

Prince ain't a world-beater, but he ain't terrible either. Plus, he plays a position of need for us. I bet he would have been starting at the swing positions till Kemba and Romeo come back.

OK, so we are trading our best center at perimeter defense, plus a 1st, plus taking on $13 million in salary next year (in turn, using up $13 million of the TPE and pushing us near the luxury tax line) for ...  what?  A mediocre wing and a center who is inferior to Robert Williams in a drop scheme and who is a lesser defender on the perimeter than either Thompson or Theis (and arguably Williams)?

This isn’t even a lateral move. It is potentially a team-killing one with the salary implications.

A ''potentially team-killing move''? Wow! We would be getting our starting Center possibly for the next decade for the price of a role player who's about to hit UFA this summer + a late first. If you ask me, that's a no-brainer. Prince would have been a solid rotation player in a position of need for us.

Again, I don't think Timelord can become our starting Center, otherwise I wouldn't have been advocating in favour of the trade.

I'm with you on Theis. He's our best perimeter defender at the Center position. That being said, Allen is hands down the better overall player, plus he's considerably younger. We'd still have a great perimeter defender at Center in Thompson. We'd still have Timelord as well. He's an amazing option off the bench. Pritchard and Teague aren't switchable defenders. No need for a switchable big man in our second unit. We can hide one non-switchable defender (Kemba). Can't hide multiple non-switchable defenders.

[Roy H.]

Per 100 Possessions:

Allen:  19.6 points, 18.3 rebounds, 2.8 blocks

Timelord: 19.8 points, 19.0 rebounds,  4.4 blocks, 101 DRtg

Thompson: 17.4 points, 17.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 111 DRtg

Theis: 15.8 points, 9.6 rebounds, 2.1 blocks, 112 DRtg

Theis (last year):  18.5 points, 13.1 rebounds, 2.6 blocks, 105 DRtg

I’m just not sure what difference Allen would make.  He seems quite duplicative.

I posted this in the other thread too, but I'm reposting it here to address your question.

Timelord ain't a good fit in our defensive system. The way our PnR defense works, Theis/Thompson meet the opposing ball handler at the level of dribble hand off and deny penetration. Timelord ain't got the lateral quicks to play D on the perimeter, hence he drops back and protects the rim. To put it another way, whenever Timelord is on the court, we have to change our defensive system. The C's are built around Tatum and Brown. They are both versatile defenders who can guard multiple positions. If we want to maximize their effectiveness, we gotta start a big man who can play D on the perimeter.

Is Jarrett Allen a good perimeter defender? Hard to say, cause the Nets were using him in a drop scheme, just like we do with Timelord. Imo, he's a better perimeter defender than Timelord, but worse than Theis and Thompson.

Is his defense a problem?  Our defensive has been excellent — elite, even — with him in the game.  He is obviously still learning, but the progress he has made is remarkable.

I’m curious, why do you make the assumption that Williams plays in a drop scheme because that’s the only thing he can do well, but don’t apply the same standard to Allen? Allen has had way more games and more years in the league to figure it out, but still doesn’t switch on the perimeter. 

What I like about Williams is that his production has increased every year so far. That’s not the case with Allen, who has been remarkably consistent on a permanent basis since his rookie season.

Timelord is outproducing Allen now, and has higher potential. He also has only been in the league three years, compared to four for Allen.


I just don’t understand where you are seeing separation. Their size is similar, their athleticism and speed are similar, their production is similar.  The only major differences are that Williams has a year longer on his contract, and that Williams has already shown that he fits into this team. Where are you seeing a gap that justifies Theis and a first rounder?

No he doesn't. Unfortunately, he can't play D on the perimeter. Imo, this is the one thing that holds him back. Had he been a better perimeter defender, he would have probably become our starting Center by now. In a vacuum, I really believe he's our best Center.

Each team runs a different defensive scheme. The C's have 2 amazing switchable wings, hence our starting unit is switching pretty much everything on defense. Do I think that Allen would have been the perfect fit for us? Certainly not. I believe he's at his best when used in a drop scheme. That being said, imo he's a better perimeter defender than Timelord.

Where are you seeing a gap that justifies Theis and a first rounder?

Theis + BOS 2021 first for Allen + Prince

Prince ain't a world-beater, but he ain't terrible either. Plus, he plays a position of need for us. I bet he would have been starting at the swing positions till Kemba and Romeo come back.

OK, so we are trading our best center at perimeter defense, plus a 1st, plus taking on $13 million in salary next year (in turn, using up $13 million of the TPE and pushing us near the luxury tax line) for ...  what?  A mediocre wing and a center who is inferior to Robert Williams in a drop scheme and who is a lesser defender on the perimeter than either Thompson or Theis (and arguably Williams)?

This isn’t even a lateral move. It is potentially a team-killing one with the salary implications.

A ''potentially team-killing move''? Wow! We would be getting our starting Center possibly for the next decade for the price of a role player who's about to hit UFA this summer + a late first. If you ask me, that's a no-brainer. Prince would have been a solid rotation player in a position of need for us.

Again, I don't think Timelord can become our starting Center, otherwise I wouldn't have been advocating in favour of the trade.

I'm with you on Theis. He's our best perimeter defender at the Center position. That being said, Allen is hands down the better overall player, plus he's considerably younger. We'd still have a great perimeter defender at Center in Thompson. We'd still have Timelord as well. He's an amazing option off the bench. Pritchard and Teague aren't switchable defenders. No need for a switchable big man in our second unit. We can hide one non-switchable defender (Kemba). Can't hide multiple non-switchable defenders.

Team killing in the financial implications, yes:

1. Luxury tax concerns this season, which would lead to repeater tax concerns soon;

2.  Prince’s $13 million in salary plus the cost of signing Allen ($16 million?) is almost a max contract;

3.  We’d be wasting $13 million of our TPE, and our financial situation would be so tight next year that we would probably never use the other half of it.

Team-killing.