Author Topic: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....  (Read 2885 times)

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Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2019, 02:43:56 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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Good debate, thank you for starting it. (TP to triboy)

Each team has flaws. Last year, no real offense, just an excellent defense that set up an average offense. The defense was built on gritty, playing over your head style. Other teams didn't get up for the bunch of mutts that was coming at them. Terry Rozier lead that team through the playoffs with 19PPG. If that alone doesn't tell you something, I don't know what will. 

Stevens specialty is getting something out of nothing...and he did.

Yes, the ECF was quite weak last year.

The Celtics must build a new team, and they haven't.
Last year's team is suffocating trying to get out from under the new one and it simply awful to watch. I wish trades or something had eliminated that team, but, it is still here.

The new team with Baynes and Smart backing up Morris, Irving and Horford is better. The number of offensive players is limited here allowing them some kind of flow.

The bench is a disaster as Hayward won't run the floor more than 3 or 4 times out of ten. He really is hurting that unit until he decides to play hard and score. The bench unit has not adjusted to the addition of Hayward.

The starters are clueless on what to do with Irving. He's a movie star superstar and everyone just defers to his majesty.

Lebron used him perfectly and had the right team to do it.

Of late, he has worked really hard to make it work and perhaps, will succeed.

Regardless, both teams lack(ed) a consistent defensive force on the front court. A series of lovable backup centers was not and continues to not be the answer.

Ainge is an Auerbach disciple. He has one title with Garnett and his own player success with Parish.

No matter how "new" NBA the new NBA is, balance is required. Horford -- Morris -- Tatum is not a championship front court, I don't care how many scorers you've got shooting threes.

Look at Presti's tenure at OKC. The team does not have nor will it ever have a defensive tradition.

The Celtic's always worked around some type of defensive force. The groups of players would recognize this and unify behind it. It is the hardest part of the game, but, it is the only element that has always guaranteed potential success. With this dynamic? The other team eventually quits.

You get blocked by Parish, you get elbowed by Cowens, you get outrun and out fought by Russell and you get psyched out and screamed at by Garnett and you effing quit. It is simply, the best option. Look at the rafters, it has been tested.

You need size/girth/length/muscle/anger/force/commitment to defense or whatever you want to call it on your frontcourt and neither this years or last year's team has it...in any way shape or form.


 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 02:57:52 PM by tstorey_97 »

Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2019, 02:57:47 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Kyrie has missed 5 games this season. For what it's worth, here are Tatum's and Brown's numbers from these 5 games:

.....


I don't doubt that both of them would be scoring with more volume (i.e. getting more shots), but I tend to think they'd both still be struggling to make a leap in terms of impacting the game in other ways and scoring with anything like the efficiency that Kyrie has.
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Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2019, 03:00:31 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The bench is a disaster as Hayward won't run the floor more than 3 or 4 times out of ten. He really is hurting that unit until he decides to play hard and score.

Yeah, he just needs to "decide to play hard."  That's it, nothing else going on at all.
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Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2019, 03:15:27 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Last season’s ECF unit almost lost in the first round of the playoffs.  They snuck by a poorly coached bucks team in 7 games.  If they lose in game 7 and don’t get the opportunity to cruise by an unprepared sixer team, nobody would think we are some juggernaut that can just flip a switch. 

This team isn’t as good as people think.  It’s a one star team.  Right now we only go as far as kyrie takes us.  Until we either see Hayward get 100%, Tatum make a leap, or a trade for a second star, we might continue to be mediocre all year.

Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2019, 03:37:34 PM »

Offline CF033

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It's really not an interesting argument.


The team without Kyrie or Hayward would be worse.

There's no way the offense would be better than bottom third of the league.  The defense might be similar.

My guess is they'd be hanging right around .500 in that case. 

You'd still have issues with Tatum and Brown struggling to make the leap
while Rozier and Morris gun for their next contracts.

Horford would still be a season older.


I don't think it would be pretty.  But hey, the expectations would be lower, so I guess we'd all be happy, right?
Kyrie has missed 5 games this season. For what it's worth, here are Tatum's and Brown's numbers from these 5 games:

1/14/2019 @Brooklyn
Tatum: 34 points (on 12-19 shooting), 5 rebs, 3 assists
Brown: 22 points (on 9-18 shooting), 6 rebs, 0 assists

1/4/2019 vs. Dallas
Tatum: 18 points (7-21), 6 rebs, 0 assists
Brown: 21 points (9-15), 2 rebs, 2 assists

1/2/2019 vs. Minny
Tatum: 8 points (3-11), 3 rebs, 4 assists
Brown: 10 points (4-7), 5 rebs, 2 assists

12/10/2018 vs. New Orleans
Tatum: 21 points (10-16), 6 rebs, 1 assist
Brown: 19 points (6-16), 7 rebs, 3 assists

11/9/2018 @Utah
Tatum: 21 points (7-14), 3 rebs, 4 assists
Brown: 9 points (4-17), 4 rebs, 1 assist

overall
Tatum: 20.4 points (48.15%), 4.6 rebs, 2.4 assists
Brown: 16.2 points (43.84%), 4.8 rebs, 1.6 assists

Btw, the C's are 3-2 in these 5 games (lost @Brooklyn and @Utah).

Good post, this question is really impossible to answer since we don't know where Tatum and Brown would be without Kyrie and Hayward on the team, the whole team dynamic would be different and those guys would get a lot more looks and minutes, and most likely would be further along than they are now.

Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2019, 05:12:12 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Roster depth matters. I reckon the starting lineup would have been OK. Not so sure regarding our second unit though. Here was our depth chart during last season's run in the playoffs:

Rozier - Larkin
Brown - Smart
Tatum - Semi - Nader
Horford - Morris - Yabu
Baynes - Monroe

(no Kyrie, Hayward, Theis due to injuries)

Basically we had 6-7 starting-caliber players (personally speaking I wouldn't count Baynes as a starting-caliber big man).
Semi, Larkin and Monroe were the weak links.
Yabu and Nader hardly ever played.

Sometimes Morris/Semi would start over Baynes and Smart would start over Brown (in the series vs. the Sixers), but the general picture remained more or less the same throughout the playoffs.

All in all, I guess we'd be in the running for the 5th seed in the East (imo, the top 4 would have been out of our reach). Having said that, if we could replace Monroe + Yabu + Nader with 2-3 solid rotation players, I believe we'd be in about the same position we are now with Kyrie + Hayward + Theis.


Kyrie has missed 5 games this season. For what it's worth, here are Tatum's and Brown's numbers from these 5 games:

.....
I don't doubt that both of them would be scoring with more volume (i.e. getting more shots), but I tend to think they'd both still be struggling to make a leap in terms of impacting the game in other ways and scoring with anything like the efficiency that Kyrie has.
Well, given the fact that the C's are vastly underachieving, I would argue that Kyrie is struggling to impact the game in other ways as well (excluding scoring).
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 11:17:04 AM by Jvalin »

Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2019, 05:16:39 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Last season’s ECF unit almost lost in the first round of the playoffs.  They snuck by a poorly coached bucks team in 7 games.  If they lose in game 7 and don’t get the opportunity to cruise by an unprepared sixer team, nobody would think we are some juggernaut that can just flip a switch. 

This team isn’t as good as people think.  It’s a one star team.  Right now we only go as far as kyrie takes us.  Until we either see Hayward get 100%, Tatum make a leap, or a trade for a second star, we might continue to be mediocre all year.

I mean, they clearly aren't as good as expected.

Chalk that down to Hayward being the furthest thing from "adding an All Star," as well as the young guys not making much of an improvement over last year.

Are they not a good team, period?

The weird thing there is they've certainly looked plain bad for stretches this season.

But they also have, in aggregate, put together a top five defense (elite) and a top ten offense (quite good), and have one of the best point differentials in the league (great).

I would agree that the product on the floor is not nearly as convincing as those aggregate numbers suggest, though. The record looks more like a merely above average team than an elite one.

 All told it's been a frustrating team to figure out.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2019, 05:28:50 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Last season’s ECF unit almost lost in the first round of the playoffs.  They snuck by a poorly coached bucks team in 7 games.  If they lose in game 7 and don’t get the opportunity to cruise by an unprepared sixer team, nobody would think we are some juggernaut that can just flip a switch. 

This team isn’t as good as people think.  It’s a one star team.  Right now we only go as far as kyrie takes us.  Until we either see Hayward get 100%, Tatum make a leap, or a trade for a second star, we might continue to be mediocre all year.

I mean, they clearly aren't as good as expected.

Chalk that down to Hayward being the furthest thing from "adding an All Star," as well as the young guys not making much of an improvement over last year.

Are they not a good team, period?

The weird thing there is they've certainly looked plain bad for stretches this season.

But they also have, in aggregate, put together a top five defense (elite) and a top ten offense (quite good), and have one of the best point differentials in the league (great).

I would agree that the product on the floor is not nearly as convincing as those aggregate numbers suggest, though. The record looks more like a merely above average team than an elite one.

 All told it's been a frustrating team to figure out.
Thing is though, there are no elite teams in this league this year. Most likely, there will not be a 60 game winning team this year.

So as long as Boston can get to be playing better than they did in the first half, they stand as good a chance as anyone this year because there simply are not any juggernaut, top echelion, elite teams. This year's NBA champion is only going to be the best of a bunch of very good teams. Not great.

Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2019, 05:36:53 PM »

Offline gpap

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So no Kyrie and no Gordon

Where would that ECF unit be in the standings today?

Better than the team today?  About the same or worse?

Has the competition/scouting on Celtics gotten that much better

It is an interesting argument....

Worse. For all the adulation the Celts get for their playoff performance, they lost to a very poor Cavs team that was blown up at the trade deadline.

Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2019, 05:38:11 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Last season’s ECF unit almost lost in the first round of the playoffs.  They snuck by a poorly coached bucks team in 7 games.  If they lose in game 7 and don’t get the opportunity to cruise by an unprepared sixer team, nobody would think we are some juggernaut that can just flip a switch. 

This team isn’t as good as people think.  It’s a one star team.  Right now we only go as far as kyrie takes us.  Until we either see Hayward get 100%, Tatum make a leap, or a trade for a second star, we might continue to be mediocre all year.

I mean, they clearly aren't as good as expected.

Chalk that down to Hayward being the furthest thing from "adding an All Star," as well as the young guys not making much of an improvement over last year.

Are they not a good team, period?

The weird thing there is they've certainly looked plain bad for stretches this season.

But they also have, in aggregate, put together a top five defense (elite) and a top ten offense (quite good), and have one of the best point differentials in the league (great).

I would agree that the product on the floor is not nearly as convincing as those aggregate numbers suggest, though. The record looks more like a merely above average team than an elite one.

 All told it's been a frustrating team to figure out.
Thing is though, there are no elite teams in this league this year. Most likely, there will not be a 60 game winning team this year.

So as long as Boston can get to be playing better than they did in the first half, they stand as good a chance as anyone this year because there simply are not any juggernaut, top echelion, elite teams. This year's NBA champion is only going to be the best of a bunch of very good teams. Not great.
The Warriors might very well be the best team in the history of the league. They aren't impressing during the regular season, but they have 2 MVPs and 5 all-stars. Even if Boogie never plays like his old self, they still have 2 MVPs, 4 all-stars + Iggy off the bench. That's an elite team in my book.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 05:55:07 PM by Jvalin »

Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2019, 05:49:24 PM »

Offline gpap

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Last season’s ECF unit almost lost in the first round of the playoffs.  They snuck by a poorly coached bucks team in 7 games.  If they lose in game 7 and don’t get the opportunity to cruise by an unprepared sixer team, nobody would think we are some juggernaut that can just flip a switch. 

This team isn’t as good as people think.  It’s a one star team.  Right now we only go as far as kyrie takes us.  Until we either see Hayward get 100%, Tatum make a leap, or a trade for a second star, we might continue to be mediocre all year.

Exactly. I think some are a little delusional about how "good" last year's playoff team was.

Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2019, 08:27:02 PM »

Offline Briantir

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Last season’s ECF unit almost lost in the first round of the playoffs.  They snuck by a poorly coached bucks team in 7 games.  If they lose in game 7 and don’t get the opportunity to cruise by an unprepared sixer team, nobody would think we are some juggernaut that can just flip a switch. 

This team isn’t as good as people think.  It’s a one star team.  Right now we only go as far as kyrie takes us.  Until we either see Hayward get 100%, Tatum make a leap, or a trade for a second star, we might continue to be mediocre all year.

I mean, they clearly aren't as good as expected.

Chalk that down to Hayward being the furthest thing from "adding an All Star," as well as the young guys not making much of an improvement over last year.

Are they not a good team, period?

The weird thing there is they've certainly looked plain bad for stretches this season.

But they also have, in aggregate, put together a top five defense (elite) and a top ten offense (quite good), and have one of the best point differentials in the league (great).

I would agree that the product on the floor is not nearly as convincing as those aggregate numbers suggest, though. The record looks more like a merely above average team than an elite one.

 All told it's been a frustrating team to figure out.
Thing is though, there are no elite teams in this league this year. Most likely, there will not be a 60 game winning team this year.

So as long as Boston can get to be playing better than they did in the first half, they stand as good a chance as anyone this year because there simply are not any juggernaut, top echelion, elite teams. This year's NBA champion is only going to be the best of a bunch of very good teams. Not great.

Toronto, Houston, Bucks, Golden State, and Lakers (Bcuz they have playoff Lebron) are elite I would say the Lakers have smaller chances but when you got Lebron you always got a chance.

 Kawhi has looked like the superstar MVP he was in SA I mean I laugh at the fools that say he was a "product of the system" clearly the man can lead and he's been leading. Greek freak also amazing leader, Harden another great leader... Lebron... Steph... what do all these guys have in common?? They are legit MVP's Celtics don't got that, half the roster thinking they should be starting and don't want to come off the bench clearly Rozier, Tatum, and Brown don't like Kyrie I realized that in the game where Tatum took the last shot instead of Kyrie which is ridiculous Kyrie should always be taking the last shot the man won a trophy because of "the shot" he hit he's proven he could do it.

Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2019, 08:33:16 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Last season’s ECF unit almost lost in the first round of the playoffs.  They snuck by a poorly coached bucks team in 7 games.  If they lose in game 7 and don’t get the opportunity to cruise by an unprepared sixer team, nobody would think we are some juggernaut that can just flip a switch. 

This team isn’t as good as people think.  It’s a one star team.  Right now we only go as far as kyrie takes us.  Until we either see Hayward get 100%, Tatum make a leap, or a trade for a second star, we might continue to be mediocre all year.

Exactly. I think some are a little delusional about how "good" last year's playoff team was.

delusional how

they still made it to the ECF

and it did take full home court adv

which the team earned in the regular season

soo all of that work was a fluke?

cmon~

Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2019, 08:34:34 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Last season’s ECF unit almost lost in the first round of the playoffs.  They snuck by a poorly coached bucks team in 7 games.  If they lose in game 7 and don’t get the opportunity to cruise by an unprepared sixer team, nobody would think we are some juggernaut that can just flip a switch. 

This team isn’t as good as people think.  It’s a one star team.  Right now we only go as far as kyrie takes us.  Until we either see Hayward get 100%, Tatum make a leap, or a trade for a second star, we might continue to be mediocre all year.

Exactly. I think some are a little delusional about how "good" last year's playoff team was.

delusional how

they still made it to the ECF

and it did take full home court adv

which the team earned in the regular season

soo all of that work was delusional?
The team that had Kyrie Irving did that :P

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Re: IF last seasons ECF unit, started this season....
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2019, 08:35:47 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Last season’s ECF unit almost lost in the first round of the playoffs.  They snuck by a poorly coached bucks team in 7 games.  If they lose in game 7 and don’t get the opportunity to cruise by an unprepared sixer team, nobody would think we are some juggernaut that can just flip a switch. 

This team isn’t as good as people think.  It’s a one star team.  Right now we only go as far as kyrie takes us.  Until we either see Hayward get 100%, Tatum make a leap, or a trade for a second star, we might continue to be mediocre all year.

Exactly. I think some are a little delusional about how "good" last year's playoff team was.

delusional how

they still made it to the ECF

and it did take full home court adv

which the team earned in the regular season

soo all of that work was delusional?
The team that had Kyrie Irving did that :P

he contributed but the hayward/irvingless unit did the majority of heavy lifting