At times, hard to stay positive over the off season moves

[rutzan]

all i can say is ask yourself a few objective questions with regards to giddens, walker, pob, miles:

1) How many times have you seen them play on tv?
2) How many times have you seen them play in person?
3) When was the last time you saw them play?
4) Are you a doctor?

enough said...

Ask me how many of those questions are relevant to anything and I'll quickly answer: None


I dont have to know these players and their games.  I watched the players we lost, and only one of them was worth ANYTHING.  Posey.

a definition of insanity...forming an opinion about something you know nothing about...

the logic is remedial...

you form an opinion about a basketball player by watching them play...

hence...the term scouting, scouts, etc...

[2short]

What % does anyone think we had resigning Posey during last years run?
I hoped he wanted to stay with a championship team but as commented during the season he is a hired gun and would more than likely be leaving for $$ pastures.  I would have loved to have him back but not for the money or length of contract.  Posey didn't shut down Kobe, Ray & Paul did.
 We will miss James, PJ a bit, Sam played well for 2 games.  I guess I forgot about Pollard, the few times he did play he helped but he would get an incomplete grade.  So we went into the playoffs with a semi retired backup C who did a nice job.  This year we are starting preseason with a 7' backup who showed good promise when at Bradley.  Tony Allen is honestly a make or break season, if he doesn't turn out to be a big + off the bench his days are numbered.  Davis & Powe are a year older a year better so they are without a doubt a plus from last year.  Eddie House will be the same.
Sure Miles is a big ? and our drafts are also but if we get anything out of ONE of them its a plus.  Pruitt might be a help this year.  really
I do not think we took a step back.

[soap07]

I don't remember last offseason when fans were saying, "Boy, we're one James Posey away from winning the championship!"

[BillfromBoston]

See the problem I have with your analysis is right here at the end...James Posey and PJ Brown were not consistently productive players-offensively or defensively...they may very well be more consistent overall than POB/TA/Walker/Miles/Giddens individually, but the latter group is far more talented and there strength is in volume--somebody should get the job done every night-a job requiring very little in all actuality, and for limited minutes as well...

Therein lies the rub, I guess.  I'd much rather have Posey and Brown than any or all five of those guys, if I wanted to maximize my championship chances.  I understand that people love young guys, but sometimes there's a place for proven vets.

Also, I'm not sure why it's a 5-for-2 swap, since we could have made the same draft picks either way, etc.  We could have retained Posey, or replaced Posey with upgrades at other positions, and still kept the rookies.  Instead, we lost Posey and didn't upgrade elsewhere.  I'm not sure how that's something to be overly optimistic about.  Again, it certainly could work out, but the off-season moves certainly didn't maximize our repeat potential.

I agree with you...but the thing is, this off-season is not the only one i'm concerned with...the Celtics have gamed out potential free agents for the next 4-5 years, so they may very well have people ear-marked for next off-season that helped determine their cut-off point for this off-season...at some point you have to do this...i'd rather have a better player one year later...

I think that's the crux of the problem.  As a fan, I'm perfectly happy with two additional years of absolutely prime, maximized championship contention, followed by a lull of however many years.  I'd rather win one championship every ten years and stink the other nine, rather than make the Eastern Conference Finals ten years in a row (an extreme example, I know, but one used for purely illustrative purposes).

I understand why management would feel the opposite way; a perennial playoff team brings in more money than a one-and-done championship team.  However, as a fan, there's a certain sense of frustration.

...this I agree with completely...but I don't think we sacrificed our chances of winning the title and I think its smart to look at the free agent classes of each of the next 3 years in order to determine what the "best" moves are for the team...this off-season the value was in low-risk, high-reward youth that could pay dividends down the line, next off-season may be a different case..

[incoherent]

all i can say is ask yourself a few objective questions with regards to giddens, walker, pob, miles:

1) How many times have you seen them play on tv?
2) How many times have you seen them play in person?
3) When was the last time you saw them play?
4) Are you a doctor?

enough said...

Ask me how many of those questions are relevant to anything and I'll quickly answer: None


I dont have to know these players and their games.  I watched the players we lost, and only one of them was worth ANYTHING. Posey.

a definition of insanity...forming an opinion about something you know nothing about...

the logic is remedial...

you form an opinion about a basketball player by watching them play...

hence...the term scouting, scouts, etc...

That is not the definition of insanity.

Your post doesn't make any sense... I clearly stated it does not matter that I have or have not seen our new players play.

I'm basing my opinion on the players were lost.  They were already bad and would make our team worse  going into the next season.  Any younger replacement with a the smallest chance of potential would be better.

[rutzan]

all i can say is ask yourself a few objective questions with regards to giddens, walker, pob, miles:

1) How many times have you seen them play on tv?
2) How many times have you seen them play in person?
3) When was the last time you saw them play?
4) Are you a doctor?

enough said...

Ask me how many of those questions are relevant to anything and I'll quickly answer: None


I dont have to know these players and their games.  I watched the players we lost, and only one of them was worth ANYTHING. Posey.

a definition of insanity...forming an opinion about something you know nothing about...

the logic is remedial...

you form an opinion about a basketball player by watching them play...

hence...the term scouting, scouts, etc...

That is not the definition of insanity.

Your post doesn't make any sense... I clearly stated it does not matter that I have or have not seen our new players play.

I'm basing my opinion on the players were lost.  They were already bad and would make our team worse  going into the next season.  Any younger replacement with a the smallest chance of potential would be better.

fyi

Articles can have various functions:

a definition of insanity

An indefinite article (English a, an) is used before singular nouns that refer to any member of a group.

the definition of insanity

A definite article (English the) is used before singular and plural nouns that refer to a particular member of a group.

[Roy Hobbs]

Enough, guys.  Don't make it personal.

[rutzan]

np...

[zerophase]

all i can say is, although the posey signing wasn't exactly big news last year, i was thrilled because of one selling fact: i hated chicago's team and we all know what posey does to chicago players....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxU3YXcRwV0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y72gBvGSFuk

this year, i can't say i'm as excited. oh and btw, the posey foul on hinrich was such a sissy foul. kirk got right back up and wasn't even hurt. but, but, if he does this to a celtics player in the future, we will hate him forever.

[wdleehi]

See the problem I have with your analysis is right here at the end...James Posey and PJ Brown were not consistently productive players-offensively or defensively...they may very well be more consistent overall than POB/TA/Walker/Miles/Giddens individually, but the latter group is far more talented and there strength is in volume--somebody should get the job done every night-a job requiring very little in all actuality, and for limited minutes as well...

Therein lies the rub, I guess.  I'd much rather have Posey and Brown than any or all five of those guys, if I wanted to maximize my championship chances.  I understand that people love young guys, but sometimes there's a place for proven vets.

Also, I'm not sure why it's a 5-for-2 swap, since we could have made the same draft picks either way, etc.  We could have retained Posey, or replaced Posey with upgrades at other positions, and still kept the rookies.  Instead, we lost Posey and didn't upgrade elsewhere.  I'm not sure how that's something to be overly optimistic about.  Again, it certainly could work out, but the off-season moves certainly didn't maximize our repeat potential.

More to the point, those two had roles, and new how to play those roles in the playoffs. 


The Celtics replaced experience that helped win a title last year with 2 rookies (both with baggage), a C labeled a bust and a SF (with baggage) that was found to be physically no longer able to play. 

...didn't replace them with 2 rookies...Perkins and Glen Davis will be replacing Brown and Tony Allen and Eddie House will teaming with Pierce and Allen to compensate for the loss of Posey--all these players saw regular minutes on the title team, so i'm not too concerned...the unproven players are bonus participants, not mandatory contributors...

Perkins and Davis were here last year.  Perkins is replacing Perkins.  Starting C.  Davis, while a nice young player, is still the short PF.  PJ was a larger player that could play against someone like Big Z.  (since the Celtics will likely see him next year)


House is last years House.  His isn't going to play in crunch time over Perkins unless they really want Pierce playing PF.  Same with TA.  TA, the guy that was wildly inconsistent.  




To me, I see a bench of a rebuilding team.  I don't see the bench of a defending NBA champ.  


Hopefully, that will change by the time the playoffs role around.

[EJPLAYA]

Kind of interesting that considering that we haven't even hoisted the first championship banner in 22 years up into the rafters that we are already having trouble staying positive?! We are back guys! We have the best starting 5 in the NBA and two of them will only get better. We have House back who contributed greatly to this team being able to spread the floor. Powe and BBD will likely get better off the bench. TA can't help but at least be a little bigger contributor as he is that much farther away from that injury. We have a backup center that I can't imagine can be much of a dropoff from PJ. (No disrespect PJ as you had a couple good games especially in the playoffs). Darius gives us a little hope if he can return to form, although I'm not counting on it completely. We appear to not have to be looking at Sam Cassell out there changing the way we play the game... We have two young rookies that have the potential to be good players in this league. Posey was a big loss, but there is a very good chance that this crew can fill his role by committee.

Things are good Celtics fans! Enjoy being on top of the world and wait until we get pushed off before we start griping and complaining.
We have a good shot at #18!!!

[gar]

I think there is reason for guarded optimism and legitimate concerns. Key issues are:

- Limiting minutes of big three
- This requires bench contributions @ PF (Powe) @ SF (?) @ SG (TA/JRG/House)
- How healthy can Perkins stay?
- What kind of drop off, if any, can we expect from the big three?

There are also leadership questions. Posey, and PJ Brown provided a calming veteran presence. Now R Allen is the only cool headed veteran presence, but he is not as vocal. On the other side both Pierce and Garnett showed great composure during the run and may be able to fill the void. You can argue it both ways. Yes PJ Brown benefited from playing along side the big three; however he hit some clutch mid range jumpers. Brown and Posey will be missed; however, I think we are sufficiently deep in all positions to get it done as presently constituted and we all know that things can and will change before Feb.

Looking forward to Camp - will be very competitive!

[billysan]

For me it is like looking at 4 subtractions with 4 additions and seeing how it balances out. It is just too early to tell if we come out ahead or not IMO.

We take away Pollard, Posey, PJ, Sam.

We add Miles, POB, JR and Walker.

We lost some size at the big man spot.

We lost defense from the bench by spreading the job over several players instead of keeping it all on one.

We lost a backup PG.

We added two very athletic wing players.

We added a very raw big man.

We added two possible health risks on the wing.

We added two possible troublemakers (with history) to the locker room.

We added a hungry workout freak at the wing.

We added a comeback player with a lot to prove at the wing.


In the end, there are three new players who will compete for minutes at the wing to play significant backup minutes off the bench. Tony Allen is considered the front runner to be the 6-7 man. One of the previous mentioned three will have to beat him out for minutes at those spots.

The big man will compete for minutes behind Powe/Davis and will have to be better than both to get significant run ahead of them. Scalabrine is only an insurance policy and practice dummy at this point.

The PG situation is Eddie House backing up Rondo. Pruitt still fightiing for minutes off the bench, but could be unemployed by Halloween. A third PG will not be a big priority for this team.

I dont think the team hit any home runs in terms of additions this offseason, but the starters and 7 of the top 9 players are still aboard. We are more athletic and have more help on the wing in terms of depth but are short one 40 something PG.

The popular theme has been that we need an extra quality big for center depth, that is possibly the most realistic shortage at this point. As of now, it appears that the first 4 of the bench will be Eddie, one of Powe-Davis-POB, and two of Tony-JR-Walker-Miles.

[JR Giddens]

There's a million ways to look at this situation:

POB> Pollard(due to injury)

JR Giddens> Sam Cassel(never fit in with the team)

Darius Miles <Posey (thats a given)

Tony Allen(healthy) > PJ Brown
 

Some people lean towards experience but from a potential standpoint this team can be a more consistent playoff team!

[Rida]

It would be very foolish to suggest that Danny made any bad offseason moves.

All the moves he made were low cost and potentially high reward signings.

I cant see any reason for negativity