Per Woj: Danny is active on the phones.....

[Beat LA]

Let me ask you (TheFlex) this - let's say that Ainge had taken Giannis, and that we still ended up with Smart and Young.  Would you keep Rondo to lead a core of himself, Smart, Giannis, and Sullinger moving forward, because I would.  To me, in the end, this really has nothing to do with Rondo at all, and everything to do with Ainge's blatant incompetency as a gm.

[TheFlex]

Let me ask you (TheFlex) this - let's say that Ainge had taken Giannis, and that we still ended up with Smart and Young.  Would you keep Rondo to lead a core of himself, Smart, Giannis, and Sullinger moving forward, because I would.  To me, in the end, this really has nothing to do with Rondo at all, and everything to do with Ainge's blatant incompetency as a gm.

Not if I had to pay him max dollars, no.

Ainge has done a fantastic job with this team. In five years he unraveled the true blatant incompetency of the pre-DA front office. For all of the blubbering over Ainge passing on Giannis (which 14 other GMs did) and Lance Stephenson (which 30 GMs did and another 10 did a second time), he's found Rondo in the 20s, Big Baby in the second round, etc. He's also made other very good picks in relation to his draft positioning, such as Al Jefferson, Tony Allen, Perk, etc. It seems like he hit again with Sully in the 20s. The jury is still out on KO, Smart and Young, but it appears fairly obvious regarding KO that Ainge picked a guy at 13 who would've gone in the top ten if the draft was done over again. Perhaps he didn't pick the best available player (which is, of course, unfairly determined years down the line) but it's hard to call Olynyk a bad pick.

Ainge deliberately chose not to make us a playoff team this year, IMO, and I can't say I'm angry at him for that. I believe Rondo is a guy who can be special on a handful of teams but otherwise no better than Andre Miller (in his prime, but still) on most other teams. That's not a max guy and Ainge correctly predicted that Rondo would get near-max to max offers this offseason whether or not he short-sightedly spent picks on assembling a team that would make Rondo look like he deserved those offers.

Instead of bittersweetly watching Pierce's last days on a team with no future and being less than a year away from KG announcing his retirement, we bottomed out while Rondo restored some of his trade value and got Marcus Smart and James Young (selected with the Nets pick), along with three other picks that have lottery potential and other tradeable assets. Instead of wasting future picks on getting players like Afflalo or Asik just to make the playoffs before Rondo leaves us for a team willing to pay more, we'll get the chance to trade Rondo for assets and select a potential franchise center this upcoming draft. Our future is incredibly bright, with or without Rondo.

We are spoiled here in Boston, where Danny is compared to Belicheck, Auerbach, Epstein, etc. In the rest of the sports world there are a lot of teams that stink for a long, long time. I expect us to be young, exciting and talented next year with plenty of progress still left to be made, and we have Ainge to thank for that.

[LarBrd33]

LBJ
KD
A. Davis
CP3
Stephen Curry
Paul George
DeMarcus Cousins
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Carmelo Anthony

Now it's gonna be out of order:

Al Jefferson
J. Noah
K. Love
K. Irving
Dirk Nowitzski
Klay Thompson
Dwight Howard
Blake Griffin
Kobe Bryant
Marc Gasol
Chris Bosh
Serge Ibaka
Goran Dragic
LaMarcus Aldridge
Damian Lillard
Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Kawhi Leonard
Kyle Lowry
John Wall

That's 30. Here are more players I believe are better than Rondo at the moment (again, out of order):

Paul Millsap
Al Horford
Joe Johnson
Derrick Rose (if he proves he can stay healthy he will skyrocket up this list)
Jimmy Butler
Monta Ellis
Andre Drummond
DeAndre Jordan
Zach Randolph
Mike Conley, Jr.
Nikola Vucevic
Eric Bledsoe
Rudy Gay
Manu Ginobili
DeMar DeRozan
Bradley Beal

As I went through the list of teams I also noted guys who I believe are in Rondo's value neighborhood for comparison.

Brook Lopez
Chandler Parsons
K. Faried
G. Monroe
Roy Hibbert
Dwyane Wade
Tobias Harris
Derrick Favors

Some things such as age, injury history and positional value were factored in slightly, but the primary factor was talent. Reputation was considered but some Cs fans are stubborn to admit that Rondo hasn't been effective for about two years now. It may not be fair that Rondo has become a forgotten talent (though he's had about 50 games to show he still has it post-injury and has failed to do so), but if Derrick Rose can fall from top 5 player status to top 40 player status, Rondo can fall from top 12-15 player status to top 50 (maybe) player status.

What do you call 'being effective,' then?  Dude, I'm sorry, but I just have so many issues with this list.  There's no way in hell that Lowry, Drummond, Horford, Millsap, Kobe (who is really just a chucker at this point, even more than usual, lol ), Dragic, Ibaka, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Rudy Gay, Bledsoe (who I like a lot, but his knees won't hold up.), Deandre Jordan, Monta Ellis, Ginobili (who is way passed his prime), Duncan (again, way passed his prime.  If Pop asked him to do what KG is being asked to do by having to create his own shot at 37, his numbers would be worse than Garnett's.  He was a great player, I'll give you that, but his team and coach hide a lot of his deficiencies, imo.  Good ahead, say I'm crazy.  I'll wait .), Tony Parker, Bradley Beal, John Wall, Big Al, Zach Randolph, Conley, Kawhi Leonard, Dirk (who, like Duncan, is no longer a top 30 player.  Sorry.), Derozan (is becoming a star, but he's not there yet.), Nikola Vucevic, Joe Johnson, and Noah are even on Rondo's level, imo.  I like how Deron Williams isn't even on any list here, btw, lol.  I guess that we're just going to have to agree to disagree, and that's okay , it's just that everyone seems to be treating Rondo like a washed-up has-been who needs to be put out to pasture, and I think that that's ridiculous.

I meant to put D-Will on the list of guys who I think are within Rondo's tier of players.

Any time the pro- and anti-Rondo camps spar over his value and impact, the pro-Rondo camp wonders aloud how CP3 could be ranked higher than Rondo when CP3 hasn't won a championship but Rondo has (in his second season, as the fourth best player).

If Rondo won Finals MVP on what peak LBJ called the greatest team he had ever played against (Kawhi Leonard on SAS), half of the posters on this forum would sculpt a massive statue of Rondo's face, blow up a quarter of Mt. Rushmore and then hold off the FBI with a fury that would make Spartan warriors proud as they replaced the crater with Almighty Rondo.

(Maybe that was an exaggeration.  )

It'd take way too long to challenge you on every objection you just raised, but here's one that really boggles my mind: you really don't think Steph Curry is better than Rondo at this point?

No, because he's a me-first, trigger-happy point guard who is a horrible defender who also doesn't make guys better, not to mention that he's been AB-like in the durability department, lol .  Andrew Bogut is the best passer on that team, followed by David Lee, and then Curry, imo.  The only thing that he can do better than Rondo is shoot.

Last year Curry averaged 8.5 apg. This year he averaged 7.7 apg. Why is it that according to many on this site, any PG ranked higher than Rondo must have a higher assist average, but Rondo can be ranked ahead of guys who average 15 more points than he does on far more efficient shooting percentages? And why does doing so make them me-first players?

Curry may shoot a lot of shots, but he also makes plenty of them. Saying that the only thing he can do better than Rondo is shoot is both false and an understatement even if true. He's the filet mignon of shooting while Rondo is the Hamburger Helper. Curry's shot above 45% in every year of his career and this season he's shooting a scorching 49% despite shooting around 24 times a game. He's a career 44% three-point shooter (absolutely insane given how many he takes) and 90% free-throw shooter.

Curry crushes Rondo in almost every advanced statistic, offensive and defensive. The Warriors have been a playoff team for a few years now and are currently dominating an intimidating Western Conference with Curry as their best player by a large margin. If that doesn't indicate that he makes his team better, I'm wondering what would indicate that Rondo makes his team better.

For the last three years or so Curry's defensive analytics are well within Rondo's range and he continues to grow on that end of the floor.

Lol... I thought Curry would have been a massive improvement over Rondo back when Curry was an injured 23 year old averaging 14.7 points, 5.3 assists, and 3.4 rebounds.   I started many a thread pondering how much better the Celtics could be if they somehow conned Golden State into giving up their injured blue chip guard for our overrated "star".  I argued that even though Curry's passing ability wasn't as good and his net stats weren't incredible, he was clearly being "held back" by Monta Ellis and putting him next to Ray Allen, KG and Pierce would have such a dramatic effect on our offensive spacing that it would FAR outweigh the loss of Rondo's ball-dominating distribution skills.  At the time, many fans disagreed with me.  There had even been a report that Ainge attempted to trade Rondo for injured Steph Curry, but Golden State turned it down.   

But at this point?... it'd take a special kind of fan to suggest Rondo is better than Curry.   Come on.

[TheFlex]

LBJ
KD
A. Davis
CP3
Stephen Curry
Paul George
DeMarcus Cousins
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Carmelo Anthony

Now it's gonna be out of order:

Al Jefferson
J. Noah
K. Love
K. Irving
Dirk Nowitzski
Klay Thompson
Dwight Howard
Blake Griffin
Kobe Bryant
Marc Gasol
Chris Bosh
Serge Ibaka
Goran Dragic
LaMarcus Aldridge
Damian Lillard
Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Kawhi Leonard
Kyle Lowry
John Wall

That's 30. Here are more players I believe are better than Rondo at the moment (again, out of order):

Paul Millsap
Al Horford
Joe Johnson
Derrick Rose (if he proves he can stay healthy he will skyrocket up this list)
Jimmy Butler
Monta Ellis
Andre Drummond
DeAndre Jordan
Zach Randolph
Mike Conley, Jr.
Nikola Vucevic
Eric Bledsoe
Rudy Gay
Manu Ginobili
DeMar DeRozan
Bradley Beal

As I went through the list of teams I also noted guys who I believe are in Rondo's value neighborhood for comparison.

Brook Lopez
Chandler Parsons
K. Faried
G. Monroe
Roy Hibbert
Dwyane Wade
Tobias Harris
Derrick Favors

Some things such as age, injury history and positional value were factored in slightly, but the primary factor was talent. Reputation was considered but some Cs fans are stubborn to admit that Rondo hasn't been effective for about two years now. It may not be fair that Rondo has become a forgotten talent (though he's had about 50 games to show he still has it post-injury and has failed to do so), but if Derrick Rose can fall from top 5 player status to top 40 player status, Rondo can fall from top 12-15 player status to top 50 (maybe) player status.

What do you call 'being effective,' then?  Dude, I'm sorry, but I just have so many issues with this list.  There's no way in hell that Lowry, Drummond, Horford, Millsap, Kobe (who is really just a chucker at this point, even more than usual, lol ), Dragic, Ibaka, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Rudy Gay, Bledsoe (who I like a lot, but his knees won't hold up.), Deandre Jordan, Monta Ellis, Ginobili (who is way passed his prime), Duncan (again, way passed his prime.  If Pop asked him to do what KG is being asked to do by having to create his own shot at 37, his numbers would be worse than Garnett's.  He was a great player, I'll give you that, but his team and coach hide a lot of his deficiencies, imo.  Good ahead, say I'm crazy.  I'll wait .), Tony Parker, Bradley Beal, John Wall, Big Al, Zach Randolph, Conley, Kawhi Leonard, Dirk (who, like Duncan, is no longer a top 30 player.  Sorry.), Derozan (is becoming a star, but he's not there yet.), Nikola Vucevic, Joe Johnson, and Noah are even on Rondo's level, imo.  I like how Deron Williams isn't even on any list here, btw, lol.  I guess that we're just going to have to agree to disagree, and that's okay , it's just that everyone seems to be treating Rondo like a washed-up has-been who needs to be put out to pasture, and I think that that's ridiculous.

I meant to put D-Will on the list of guys who I think are within Rondo's tier of players.

Any time the pro- and anti-Rondo camps spar over his value and impact, the pro-Rondo camp wonders aloud how CP3 could be ranked higher than Rondo when CP3 hasn't won a championship but Rondo has (in his second season, as the fourth best player).

If Rondo won Finals MVP on what peak LBJ called the greatest team he had ever played against (Kawhi Leonard on SAS), half of the posters on this forum would sculpt a massive statue of Rondo's face, blow up a quarter of Mt. Rushmore and then hold off the FBI with a fury that would make Spartan warriors proud as they replaced the crater with Almighty Rondo.

(Maybe that was an exaggeration.  )

It'd take way too long to challenge you on every objection you just raised, but here's one that really boggles my mind: you really don't think Steph Curry is better than Rondo at this point?

No, because he's a me-first, trigger-happy point guard who is a horrible defender who also doesn't make guys better, not to mention that he's been AB-like in the durability department, lol .  Andrew Bogut is the best passer on that team, followed by David Lee, and then Curry, imo.  The only thing that he can do better than Rondo is shoot.

Last year Curry averaged 8.5 apg. This year he averaged 7.7 apg. Why is it that according to many on this site, any PG ranked higher than Rondo must have a higher assist average, but Rondo can be ranked ahead of guys who average 15 more points than he does on far more efficient shooting percentages? And why does doing so make them me-first players?

Curry may shoot a lot of shots, but he also makes plenty of them. Saying that the only thing he can do better than Rondo is shoot is both false and an understatement even if true. He's the filet mignon of shooting while Rondo is the Hamburger Helper. Curry's shot above 45% in every year of his career and this season he's shooting a scorching 49% despite shooting around 24 times a game. He's a career 44% three-point shooter (absolutely insane given how many he takes) and 90% free-throw shooter.

Curry crushes Rondo in almost every advanced statistic, offensive and defensive. The Warriors have been a playoff team for a few years now and are currently dominating an intimidating Western Conference with Curry as their best player by a large margin. If that doesn't indicate that he makes his team better, I'm wondering what would indicate that Rondo makes his team better.

For the last three years or so Curry's defensive analytics are well within Rondo's range and he continues to grow on that end of the floor.

Lol... I thought Curry would have been a massive improvement over Rondo back when Curry was an injured 23 year old averaging 14.7 points, 5.3 assists, and 3.4 rebounds.   I started many a thread pondering how much better the Celtics could be if they somehow conned Golden State into giving up their injured blue chip guard for our overrated "star".  I argued that even though Curry's passing ability wasn't as good and his net stats weren't incredible, he was clearly being "held back" by Monta Ellis and putting him next to Ray Allen, KG and Pierce would have such a dramatic effect on our offensive spacing that it would FAR outweigh the loss of Rondo's ball-dominating distribution skills.  At the time, many fans disagreed with me.  There had even been a report that Ainge attempted to trade Rondo for injured Steph Curry, but Golden State turned it down.   

But at this point?... it'd take a special kind of fan to suggest Rondo is better than Curry.   Come on.

I agree. You're wearing some green glasses, drinking some green Kool-Aid and smoking some green you-know-what if you think Rondo is better than Steph Curry right now.

[mmmmm]

It'd take way too long to challenge you on every objection you just raised, but here's one that really boggles my mind: you really don't think Steph Curry is better than Rondo at this point?

Well, I pondered this question and all the related ones (Is Deron Williams better than Rondo? Is Kyrie Irving better than Rondo? Etc., etc.), input some numbers and came out with the following answer:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/12/17/7406937/ranking-point-guards-at-the-quarter-pole-an-analytic-approach

The short answer would be:  If you ignore defense, then right now, yep, Steph Curry is probably just barely slightly better than Rondo right now.  I have his net point impact per 36 at the top of the list at 39.2 points per 36.  But Rondo's impact is only slightly behind in 3rd at 37.1.

This rating gives credit for points scored, assists and rebounds and penalizes for turnovers and missed shots.

Just keep in mind that this evaluation is being done with Rondo shooting _way_ below his career norms, to which is likely to eventually regress upwards to.  That could add 2-4 points to his per-36 average.  That alone might push Rondo's net point impact rating up above Curry's.

And seriously?  Rondo's defense is definitely worth more than Curry's.

Here are the resulting ratings as of Monday night's games.  See the link up above for the math.

Player         NetPointImpact/36
Stephen Curry      39.2
Chris Paul         38.5
Rajon Rondo        37.1
John Wall          36.8
James Harden       35.2
Kyle Lowry         34.9
Ty Lawson          33.3
Jeff Teague        32.3
Damian Lillard     31.9
Dwyane Wade        31.7
M. Carter-Williams 31.2
Mike Conley        29.4
Eric Bledsoe       29.1
Jrue Holiday       28.5
Brandon Knight     28.1
Derrick Rose       27.4
Deron Williams     27.2
Tyreke Evans       27.1
Tony Parker        27.0
Brandon Jennings   26.6
Darren Collison    26.4
Kyrie Irving       26.3
Tony Wroten        26.2
Reggie Jackson     26.1
Mo Williams        26.0
Kemba Walker       24.2
Trey Burke         20.2

If I were to take defense into consideration (other than rebounds, which are already accounted for) I would probably put Paul #1, followed by Rondo and then Curry.  Especially if you factor in strength of schedule (Rondo has played against a much harder schedule so far than either Paul or Curry - especially Curry.  GSW has played the 4th easiest schedule so far.).

But even ignoring defense, it is pretty clear that as measured by raw production stats, Rondo is clearly still among the top handful of point guards in the NBA and most of the spew in this thread claiming he is "not even top 30" in the NBA is just hyperbole.

This was a pretty straightforward analysis and I suspect that Danny & Brad's evaluations are at least as sophisticated.  I would bet their sense of Rondo's value is a LOT different than that of several of the bloggers on this board.

[inverselock]

It'd take way too long to challenge you on every objection you just raised, but here's one that really boggles my mind: you really don't think Steph Curry is better than Rondo at this point?

Well, I pondered this question and all the related ones (Is Deron Williams better than Rondo? Is Kyrie Irving better than Rondo? Etc., etc.), input some numbers and came out with the following answer:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/12/17/7406937/ranking-point-guards-at-the-quarter-pole-an-analytic-approach

The short answer would be:  If you ignore defense, then right now, yep, Steph Curry is probably just barely slightly better than Rondo right now.  I have his net point impact per 36 at the top of the list at 39.2 points per 36.  But Rondo's impact is only slightly behind in 3rd at 37.1.

This rating gives credit for points scored, assists and rebounds and penalizes for turnovers and missed shots.

Just keep in mind that this evaluation is being done with Rondo shooting _way_ below his career norms, to which is likely to eventually regress upwards to.  That could add 2-4 points to his per-36 average.  That alone might push Rondo's net point impact rating up above Curry's.

And seriously?  Rondo's defense is definitely worth more than Curry's.

Here are the resulting ratings as of Monday night's games.  See the link up above for the math.

Player         NetPointImpact/36
Stephen Curry      39.2
Chris Paul         38.5
Rajon Rondo        37.1
John Wall          36.8
James Harden       35.2
Kyle Lowry         34.9
Ty Lawson          33.3
Jeff Teague        32.3
Damian Lillard     31.9
Dwyane Wade        31.7
M. Carter-Williams 31.2
Mike Conley        29.4
Eric Bledsoe       29.1
Jrue Holiday       28.5
Brandon Knight     28.1
Derrick Rose       27.4
Deron Williams     27.2
Tyreke Evans       27.1
Tony Parker        27.0
Brandon Jennings   26.6
Darren Collison    26.4
Kyrie Irving       26.3
Tony Wroten        26.2
Reggie Jackson     26.1
Mo Williams        26.0
Kemba Walker       24.2
Trey Burke         20.2

If I were to take defense into consideration (other than rebounds, which are already accounted for) I would probably put Paul #1, followed by Rondo and then Curry.  Especially if you factor in strength of schedule (Rondo has played against a much harder schedule so far than either Paul or Curry - especially Curry.  GSW has played the 4th easiest schedule so far.).

But even ignoring defense, it is pretty clear that as measured by raw production stats, Rondo is clearly still among the top handful of point guards in the NBA and most of the spew in this thread claiming he is "not even top 30" in the NBA is just hyperbole.

This was a pretty straightforward analysis and I suspect that Danny & Brad's evaluations are at least as sophisticated.  I would bet their sense of Rondo's value is a LOT different than that of several of the bloggers on this board.

Did you weigh point scored and point scored off assist the same?  That would be misleading to say the assister was responsible for the made basket on every occasion.

Nba awards assists for multiple dribble moves and tough contested shots after a pass.

http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/2o69z2/analysis_a_look_at_all_8_of_brandon_knights/

[Beat LA]

LBJ
KD
A. Davis
CP3
Stephen Curry
Paul George
DeMarcus Cousins
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Carmelo Anthony

Now it's gonna be out of order:

Al Jefferson
J. Noah
K. Love
K. Irving
Dirk Nowitzski
Klay Thompson
Dwight Howard
Blake Griffin
Kobe Bryant
Marc Gasol
Chris Bosh
Serge Ibaka
Goran Dragic
LaMarcus Aldridge
Damian Lillard
Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Kawhi Leonard
Kyle Lowry
John Wall

That's 30. Here are more players I believe are better than Rondo at the moment (again, out of order):

Paul Millsap
Al Horford
Joe Johnson
Derrick Rose (if he proves he can stay healthy he will skyrocket up this list)
Jimmy Butler
Monta Ellis
Andre Drummond
DeAndre Jordan
Zach Randolph
Mike Conley, Jr.
Nikola Vucevic
Eric Bledsoe
Rudy Gay
Manu Ginobili
DeMar DeRozan
Bradley Beal

As I went through the list of teams I also noted guys who I believe are in Rondo's value neighborhood for comparison.

Brook Lopez
Chandler Parsons
K. Faried
G. Monroe
Roy Hibbert
Dwyane Wade
Tobias Harris
Derrick Favors

Some things such as age, injury history and positional value were factored in slightly, but the primary factor was talent. Reputation was considered but some Cs fans are stubborn to admit that Rondo hasn't been effective for about two years now. It may not be fair that Rondo has become a forgotten talent (though he's had about 50 games to show he still has it post-injury and has failed to do so), but if Derrick Rose can fall from top 5 player status to top 40 player status, Rondo can fall from top 12-15 player status to top 50 (maybe) player status.

What do you call 'being effective,' then?  Dude, I'm sorry, but I just have so many issues with this list.  There's no way in hell that Lowry, Drummond, Horford, Millsap, Kobe (who is really just a chucker at this point, even more than usual, lol ), Dragic, Ibaka, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Rudy Gay, Bledsoe (who I like a lot, but his knees won't hold up.), Deandre Jordan, Monta Ellis, Ginobili (who is way passed his prime), Duncan (again, way passed his prime.  If Pop asked him to do what KG is being asked to do by having to create his own shot at 37, his numbers would be worse than Garnett's.  He was a great player, I'll give you that, but his team and coach hide a lot of his deficiencies, imo.  Good ahead, say I'm crazy.  I'll wait .), Tony Parker, Bradley Beal, John Wall, Big Al, Zach Randolph, Conley, Kawhi Leonard, Dirk (who, like Duncan, is no longer a top 30 player.  Sorry.), Derozan (is becoming a star, but he's not there yet.), Nikola Vucevic, Joe Johnson, and Noah are even on Rondo's level, imo.  I like how Deron Williams isn't even on any list here, btw, lol.  I guess that we're just going to have to agree to disagree, and that's okay , it's just that everyone seems to be treating Rondo like a washed-up has-been who needs to be put out to pasture, and I think that that's ridiculous.

I meant to put D-Will on the list of guys who I think are within Rondo's tier of players.

Any time the pro- and anti-Rondo camps spar over his value and impact, the pro-Rondo camp wonders aloud how CP3 could be ranked higher than Rondo when CP3 hasn't won a championship but Rondo has (in his second season, as the fourth best player).

If Rondo won Finals MVP on what peak LBJ called the greatest team he had ever played against (Kawhi Leonard on SAS), half of the posters on this forum would sculpt a massive statue of Rondo's face, blow up a quarter of Mt. Rushmore and then hold off the FBI with a fury that would make Spartan warriors proud as they replaced the crater with Almighty Rondo.

(Maybe that was an exaggeration.  )

It'd take way too long to challenge you on every objection you just raised, but here's one that really boggles my mind: you really don't think Steph Curry is better than Rondo at this point?

No, because he's a me-first, trigger-happy point guard who is a horrible defender who also doesn't make guys better, not to mention that he's been AB-like in the durability department, lol .  Andrew Bogut is the best passer on that team, followed by David Lee, and then Curry, imo.  The only thing that he can do better than Rondo is shoot.

Last year Curry averaged 8.5 apg. This year he averaged 7.7 apg. Why is it that according to many on this site, any PG ranked higher than Rondo must have a higher assist average, but Rondo can be ranked ahead of guys who average 15 more points than he does on far more efficient shooting percentages? And why does doing so make them me-first players?

Curry may shoot a lot of shots, but he also makes plenty of them. Saying that the only thing he can do better than Rondo is shoot is both false and an understatement even if true. He's the filet mignon of shooting while Rondo is the Hamburger Helper. Curry's shot above 45% in every year of his career and this season he's shooting a scorching 49% despite shooting around 24 times a game. He's a career 44% three-point shooter (absolutely insane given how many he takes) and 90% free-throw shooter.

Curry crushes Rondo in almost every advanced statistic, offensive and defensive. The Warriors have been a playoff team for a few years now and are currently dominating an intimidating Western Conference with Curry as their best player by a large margin. If that doesn't indicate that he makes his team better, I'm wondering what would indicate that Rondo makes his team better.

For the last three years or so Curry's defensive analytics are well within Rondo's range and he continues to grow on that end of the floor.

Lol... I thought Curry would have been a massive improvement over Rondo back when Curry was an injured 23 year old averaging 14.7 points, 5.3 assists, and 3.4 rebounds.   I started many a thread pondering how much better the Celtics could be if they somehow conned Golden State into giving up their injured blue chip guard for our overrated "star".  I argued that even though Curry's passing ability wasn't as good and his net stats weren't incredible, he was clearly being "held back" by Monta Ellis and putting him next to Ray Allen, KG and Pierce would have such a dramatic effect on our offensive spacing that it would FAR outweigh the loss of Rondo's ball-dominating distribution skills.  At the time, many fans disagreed with me.  There had even been a report that Ainge attempted to trade Rondo for injured Steph Curry, but Golden State turned it down.   

But at this point?... it'd take a special kind of fan to suggest Rondo is better than Curry.   Come on.

I agree. You're wearing some green glasses, drinking some green Kool-Aid and smoking some green you-know-what if you think Rondo is better than Steph Curry right now.

I hate to disappoint, but I'm not that interesting.

[Beat LA]

It'd take way too long to challenge you on every objection you just raised, but here's one that really boggles my mind: you really don't think Steph Curry is better than Rondo at this point?

Well, I pondered this question and all the related ones (Is Deron Williams better than Rondo? Is Kyrie Irving better than Rondo? Etc., etc.), input some numbers and came out with the following answer:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/12/17/7406937/ranking-point-guards-at-the-quarter-pole-an-analytic-approach

The short answer would be:  If you ignore defense, then right now, yep, Steph Curry is probably just barely slightly better than Rondo right now.  I have his net point impact per 36 at the top of the list at 39.2 points per 36.  But Rondo's impact is only slightly behind in 3rd at 37.1.

This rating gives credit for points scored, assists and rebounds and penalizes for turnovers and missed shots.

Just keep in mind that this evaluation is being done with Rondo shooting _way_ below his career norms, to which is likely to eventually regress upwards to.  That could add 2-4 points to his per-36 average.  That alone might push Rondo's net point impact rating up above Curry's.

And seriously?  Rondo's defense is definitely worth more than Curry's.

Here are the resulting ratings as of Monday night's games.  See the link up above for the math.

Player         NetPointImpact/36
Stephen Curry      39.2
Chris Paul         38.5
Rajon Rondo        37.1
John Wall          36.8
James Harden       35.2
Kyle Lowry         34.9
Ty Lawson          33.3
Jeff Teague        32.3
Damian Lillard     31.9
Dwyane Wade        31.7
M. Carter-Williams 31.2
Mike Conley        29.4
Eric Bledsoe       29.1
Jrue Holiday       28.5
Brandon Knight     28.1
Derrick Rose       27.4
Deron Williams     27.2
Tyreke Evans       27.1
Tony Parker        27.0
Brandon Jennings   26.6
Darren Collison    26.4
Kyrie Irving       26.3
Tony Wroten        26.2
Reggie Jackson     26.1
Mo Williams        26.0
Kemba Walker       24.2
Trey Burke         20.2

If I were to take defense into consideration (other than rebounds, which are already accounted for) I would probably put Paul #1, followed by Rondo and then Curry.  Especially if you factor in strength of schedule (Rondo has played against a much harder schedule so far than either Paul or Curry - especially Curry.  GSW has played the 4th easiest schedule so far.).

But even ignoring defense, it is pretty clear that as measured by raw production stats, Rondo is clearly still among the top handful of point guards in the NBA and most of the spew in this thread claiming he is "not even top 30" in the NBA is just hyperbole.

This was a pretty straightforward analysis and I suspect that Danny & Brad's evaluations are at least as sophisticated.  I would bet their sense of Rondo's value is a LOT different than that of several of the bloggers on this board.

Thank you, TP.   I thought that I would have to do this on my own, lol, which I'm happy to do, but still, it's nice to know that I'm not the only one who thinks that Rondo is at least a top 30 player.  How did we ever get here?

[TheFlex]

It'd take way too long to challenge you on every objection you just raised, but here's one that really boggles my mind: you really don't think Steph Curry is better than Rondo at this point?

Well, I pondered this question and all the related ones (Is Deron Williams better than Rondo? Is Kyrie Irving better than Rondo? Etc., etc.), input some numbers and came out with the following answer:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/12/17/7406937/ranking-point-guards-at-the-quarter-pole-an-analytic-approach

The short answer would be:  If you ignore defense, then right now, yep, Steph Curry is probably just barely slightly better than Rondo right now.  I have his net point impact per 36 at the top of the list at 39.2 points per 36.  But Rondo's impact is only slightly behind in 3rd at 37.1.

This rating gives credit for points scored, assists and rebounds and penalizes for turnovers and missed shots.

Just keep in mind that this evaluation is being done with Rondo shooting _way_ below his career norms, to which is likely to eventually regress upwards to.  That could add 2-4 points to his per-36 average.  That alone might push Rondo's net point impact rating up above Curry's.

And seriously?  Rondo's defense is definitely worth more than Curry's.

Here are the resulting ratings as of Monday night's games.  See the link up above for the math.

Player         NetPointImpact/36
Stephen Curry      39.2
Chris Paul         38.5
Rajon Rondo        37.1
John Wall          36.8
James Harden       35.2
Kyle Lowry         34.9
Ty Lawson          33.3
Jeff Teague        32.3
Damian Lillard     31.9
Dwyane Wade        31.7
M. Carter-Williams 31.2
Mike Conley        29.4
Eric Bledsoe       29.1
Jrue Holiday       28.5
Brandon Knight     28.1
Derrick Rose       27.4
Deron Williams     27.2
Tyreke Evans       27.1
Tony Parker        27.0
Brandon Jennings   26.6
Darren Collison    26.4
Kyrie Irving       26.3
Tony Wroten        26.2
Reggie Jackson     26.1
Mo Williams        26.0
Kemba Walker       24.2
Trey Burke         20.2

If I were to take defense into consideration (other than rebounds, which are already accounted for) I would probably put Paul #1, followed by Rondo and then Curry.  Especially if you factor in strength of schedule (Rondo has played against a much harder schedule so far than either Paul or Curry - especially Curry.  GSW has played the 4th easiest schedule so far.).

But even ignoring defense, it is pretty clear that as measured by raw production stats, Rondo is clearly still among the top handful of point guards in the NBA and most of the spew in this thread claiming he is "not even top 30" in the NBA is just hyperbole.

This was a pretty straightforward analysis and I suspect that Danny & Brad's evaluations are at least as sophisticated.  I would bet their sense of Rondo's value is a LOT different than that of several of the bloggers on this board.

TP for the analysis.

Your choice of stats and allocation of weight to each stat is biased to Rondo's style of play in numerous ways, two of which I have the intellect to explain at 4:30 A.M.:

It penalizes other players for missed shots more so than Rondo is penalized for not taking enough shots to be considered as highly as most of those players are. We'll continue the Steph Curry theme of this discussion. Rondo takes, and therefore misses, far less shots than Steph Curry does and yet Rondo does not shoot any more efficiently than Curry does. It is my opinion that you get around this by measuring total missed shots vs. shot efficiency.

It credits players for the entirety of the total points scored off their assist, which is typically nearly double and in some cases triple what you weigh a single turnover. This sort of analysis presumes that without the assist the points would not be scored in the same direct fashion that it is presumed without a player taking and making a shot that the shot's resulting points would not otherwise be scored. I do not assess an assist to have the same point value as a made basket and I am assuming most other advanced metrics don't either, which is why Rondo is ranked so poorly, particularly on offense, by typical advanced metrics this season.

Your analysis pegs Rondo as a top 3 PG while most other statistical analysis suggests he's fighting for a top 20 spot at the position. I'm guessing his value is somewhere in the middle (I rank him around 12th in the league). I also find it hard to believe Danny and Brad are as high on Rondo as you seem to think when Danny has tried to trade Rondo numerous times (CP3, Steph Curry, Sac-Town offer last year that Rondo killed) and Brad has been steadily decreasing his minutes. Within two months of Rondo's return last season, Brad played him about 36 minutes a game to close out the season. In the month of November this average fell to about 32.5 mpg. Now in December Rondo is averaging about 30 mpg. That doesn't sound like a player valued as a top 3 positional talent by his GM and coach.

[TheFlex]

It'd take way too long to challenge you on every objection you just raised, but here's one that really boggles my mind: you really don't think Steph Curry is better than Rondo at this point?

Well, I pondered this question and all the related ones (Is Deron Williams better than Rondo? Is Kyrie Irving better than Rondo? Etc., etc.), input some numbers and came out with the following answer:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/12/17/7406937/ranking-point-guards-at-the-quarter-pole-an-analytic-approach

The short answer would be:  If you ignore defense, then right now, yep, Steph Curry is probably just barely slightly better than Rondo right now.  I have his net point impact per 36 at the top of the list at 39.2 points per 36.  But Rondo's impact is only slightly behind in 3rd at 37.1.

This rating gives credit for points scored, assists and rebounds and penalizes for turnovers and missed shots.

Just keep in mind that this evaluation is being done with Rondo shooting _way_ below his career norms, to which is likely to eventually regress upwards to.  That could add 2-4 points to his per-36 average.  That alone might push Rondo's net point impact rating up above Curry's.

And seriously?  Rondo's defense is definitely worth more than Curry's.

Here are the resulting ratings as of Monday night's games.  See the link up above for the math.

Player         NetPointImpact/36
Stephen Curry      39.2
Chris Paul         38.5
Rajon Rondo        37.1
John Wall          36.8
James Harden       35.2
Kyle Lowry         34.9
Ty Lawson          33.3
Jeff Teague        32.3
Damian Lillard     31.9
Dwyane Wade        31.7
M. Carter-Williams 31.2
Mike Conley        29.4
Eric Bledsoe       29.1
Jrue Holiday       28.5
Brandon Knight     28.1
Derrick Rose       27.4
Deron Williams     27.2
Tyreke Evans       27.1
Tony Parker        27.0
Brandon Jennings   26.6
Darren Collison    26.4
Kyrie Irving       26.3
Tony Wroten        26.2
Reggie Jackson     26.1
Mo Williams        26.0
Kemba Walker       24.2
Trey Burke         20.2

If I were to take defense into consideration (other than rebounds, which are already accounted for) I would probably put Paul #1, followed by Rondo and then Curry.  Especially if you factor in strength of schedule (Rondo has played against a much harder schedule so far than either Paul or Curry - especially Curry.  GSW has played the 4th easiest schedule so far.).

But even ignoring defense, it is pretty clear that as measured by raw production stats, Rondo is clearly still among the top handful of point guards in the NBA and most of the spew in this thread claiming he is "not even top 30" in the NBA is just hyperbole.

This was a pretty straightforward analysis and I suspect that Danny & Brad's evaluations are at least as sophisticated.  I would bet their sense of Rondo's value is a LOT different than that of several of the bloggers on this board.

Did you weigh point scored and point scored off assist the same?  That would be misleading to say the assister was responsible for the made basket on every occasion.

Nba awards assists for multiple dribble moves and tough contested shots after a pass.

http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/2o69z2/analysis_a_look_at_all_8_of_brandon_knights/

Yes, mmmmm did.

LBJ
KD
A. Davis
CP3
Stephen Curry
Paul George
DeMarcus Cousins
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Carmelo Anthony

Now it's gonna be out of order:

Al Jefferson
J. Noah
K. Love
K. Irving
Dirk Nowitzski
Klay Thompson
Dwight Howard
Blake Griffin
Kobe Bryant
Marc Gasol
Chris Bosh
Serge Ibaka
Goran Dragic
LaMarcus Aldridge
Damian Lillard
Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Kawhi Leonard
Kyle Lowry
John Wall

That's 30. Here are more players I believe are better than Rondo at the moment (again, out of order):

Paul Millsap
Al Horford
Joe Johnson
Derrick Rose (if he proves he can stay healthy he will skyrocket up this list)
Jimmy Butler
Monta Ellis
Andre Drummond
DeAndre Jordan
Zach Randolph
Mike Conley, Jr.
Nikola Vucevic
Eric Bledsoe
Rudy Gay
Manu Ginobili
DeMar DeRozan
Bradley Beal

As I went through the list of teams I also noted guys who I believe are in Rondo's value neighborhood for comparison.

Brook Lopez
Chandler Parsons
K. Faried
G. Monroe
Roy Hibbert
Dwyane Wade
Tobias Harris
Derrick Favors

Some things such as age, injury history and positional value were factored in slightly, but the primary factor was talent. Reputation was considered but some Cs fans are stubborn to admit that Rondo hasn't been effective for about two years now. It may not be fair that Rondo has become a forgotten talent (though he's had about 50 games to show he still has it post-injury and has failed to do so), but if Derrick Rose can fall from top 5 player status to top 40 player status, Rondo can fall from top 12-15 player status to top 50 (maybe) player status.

What do you call 'being effective,' then?  Dude, I'm sorry, but I just have so many issues with this list.  There's no way in hell that Lowry, Drummond, Horford, Millsap, Kobe (who is really just a chucker at this point, even more than usual, lol ), Dragic, Ibaka, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Rudy Gay, Bledsoe (who I like a lot, but his knees won't hold up.), Deandre Jordan, Monta Ellis, Ginobili (who is way passed his prime), Duncan (again, way passed his prime.  If Pop asked him to do what KG is being asked to do by having to create his own shot at 37, his numbers would be worse than Garnett's.  He was a great player, I'll give you that, but his team and coach hide a lot of his deficiencies, imo.  Good ahead, say I'm crazy.  I'll wait .), Tony Parker, Bradley Beal, John Wall, Big Al, Zach Randolph, Conley, Kawhi Leonard, Dirk (who, like Duncan, is no longer a top 30 player.  Sorry.), Derozan (is becoming a star, but he's not there yet.), Nikola Vucevic, Joe Johnson, and Noah are even on Rondo's level, imo.  I like how Deron Williams isn't even on any list here, btw, lol.  I guess that we're just going to have to agree to disagree, and that's okay , it's just that everyone seems to be treating Rondo like a washed-up has-been who needs to be put out to pasture, and I think that that's ridiculous.

I meant to put D-Will on the list of guys who I think are within Rondo's tier of players.

Any time the pro- and anti-Rondo camps spar over his value and impact, the pro-Rondo camp wonders aloud how CP3 could be ranked higher than Rondo when CP3 hasn't won a championship but Rondo has (in his second season, as the fourth best player).

If Rondo won Finals MVP on what peak LBJ called the greatest team he had ever played against (Kawhi Leonard on SAS), half of the posters on this forum would sculpt a massive statue of Rondo's face, blow up a quarter of Mt. Rushmore and then hold off the FBI with a fury that would make Spartan warriors proud as they replaced the crater with Almighty Rondo.

(Maybe that was an exaggeration.  )

It'd take way too long to challenge you on every objection you just raised, but here's one that really boggles my mind: you really don't think Steph Curry is better than Rondo at this point?

No, because he's a me-first, trigger-happy point guard who is a horrible defender who also doesn't make guys better, not to mention that he's been AB-like in the durability department, lol .  Andrew Bogut is the best passer on that team, followed by David Lee, and then Curry, imo.  The only thing that he can do better than Rondo is shoot.

Last year Curry averaged 8.5 apg. This year he averaged 7.7 apg. Why is it that according to many on this site, any PG ranked higher than Rondo must have a higher assist average, but Rondo can be ranked ahead of guys who average 15 more points than he does on far more efficient shooting percentages? And why does doing so make them me-first players?

Curry may shoot a lot of shots, but he also makes plenty of them. Saying that the only thing he can do better than Rondo is shoot is both false and an understatement even if true. He's the filet mignon of shooting while Rondo is the Hamburger Helper. Curry's shot above 45% in every year of his career and this season he's shooting a scorching 49% despite shooting around 24 times a game. He's a career 44% three-point shooter (absolutely insane given how many he takes) and 90% free-throw shooter.

Curry crushes Rondo in almost every advanced statistic, offensive and defensive. The Warriors have been a playoff team for a few years now and are currently dominating an intimidating Western Conference with Curry as their best player by a large margin. If that doesn't indicate that he makes his team better, I'm wondering what would indicate that Rondo makes his team better.

For the last three years or so Curry's defensive analytics are well within Rondo's range and he continues to grow on that end of the floor.

Lol... I thought Curry would have been a massive improvement over Rondo back when Curry was an injured 23 year old averaging 14.7 points, 5.3 assists, and 3.4 rebounds.   I started many a thread pondering how much better the Celtics could be if they somehow conned Golden State into giving up their injured blue chip guard for our overrated "star".  I argued that even though Curry's passing ability wasn't as good and his net stats weren't incredible, he was clearly being "held back" by Monta Ellis and putting him next to Ray Allen, KG and Pierce would have such a dramatic effect on our offensive spacing that it would FAR outweigh the loss of Rondo's ball-dominating distribution skills.  At the time, many fans disagreed with me.  There had even been a report that Ainge attempted to trade Rondo for injured Steph Curry, but Golden State turned it down.   

But at this point?... it'd take a special kind of fan to suggest Rondo is better than Curry.   Come on.

I agree. You're wearing some green glasses, drinking some green Kool-Aid and smoking some green you-know-what if you think Rondo is better than Steph Curry right now.

I hate to disappoint, but I'm not that interesting.

Lol.

[Beat LA]

LBJ
KD
A. Davis
CP3
Stephen Curry
Paul George
DeMarcus Cousins
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Carmelo Anthony

Now it's gonna be out of order:

Al Jefferson
J. Noah
K. Love
K. Irving
Dirk Nowitzski
Klay Thompson
Dwight Howard
Blake Griffin
Kobe Bryant
Marc Gasol
Chris Bosh
Serge Ibaka
Goran Dragic
LaMarcus Aldridge
Damian Lillard
Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Kawhi Leonard
Kyle Lowry
John Wall

That's 30. Here are more players I believe are better than Rondo at the moment (again, out of order):

Paul Millsap
Al Horford
Joe Johnson
Derrick Rose (if he proves he can stay healthy he will skyrocket up this list)
Jimmy Butler
Monta Ellis
Andre Drummond
DeAndre Jordan
Zach Randolph
Mike Conley, Jr.
Nikola Vucevic
Eric Bledsoe
Rudy Gay
Manu Ginobili
DeMar DeRozan
Bradley Beal

As I went through the list of teams I also noted guys who I believe are in Rondo's value neighborhood for comparison.

Brook Lopez
Chandler Parsons
K. Faried
G. Monroe
Roy Hibbert
Dwyane Wade
Tobias Harris
Derrick Favors

Some things such as age, injury history and positional value were factored in slightly, but the primary factor was talent. Reputation was considered but some Cs fans are stubborn to admit that Rondo hasn't been effective for about two years now. It may not be fair that Rondo has become a forgotten talent (though he's had about 50 games to show he still has it post-injury and has failed to do so), but if Derrick Rose can fall from top 5 player status to top 40 player status, Rondo can fall from top 12-15 player status to top 50 (maybe) player status.

What do you call 'being effective,' then?  Dude, I'm sorry, but I just have so many issues with this list.  There's no way in hell that Lowry, Drummond, Horford, Millsap, Kobe (who is really just a chucker at this point, even more than usual, lol ), Dragic, Ibaka, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Rudy Gay, Bledsoe (who I like a lot, but his knees won't hold up.), Deandre Jordan, Monta Ellis, Ginobili (who is way passed his prime), Duncan (again, way passed his prime.  If Pop asked him to do what KG is being asked to do by having to create his own shot at 37, his numbers would be worse than Garnett's.  He was a great player, I'll give you that, but his team and coach hide a lot of his deficiencies, imo.  Good ahead, say I'm crazy.  I'll wait .), Tony Parker, Bradley Beal, John Wall, Big Al, Zach Randolph, Conley, Kawhi Leonard, Dirk (who, like Duncan, is no longer a top 30 player.  Sorry.), Derozan (is becoming a star, but he's not there yet.), Nikola Vucevic, Joe Johnson, and Noah are even on Rondo's level, imo.  I like how Deron Williams isn't even on any list here, btw, lol.  I guess that we're just going to have to agree to disagree, and that's okay , it's just that everyone seems to be treating Rondo like a washed-up has-been who needs to be put out to pasture, and I think that that's ridiculous.

I meant to put D-Will on the list of guys who I think are within Rondo's tier of players.

Any time the pro- and anti-Rondo camps spar over his value and impact, the pro-Rondo camp wonders aloud how CP3 could be ranked higher than Rondo when CP3 hasn't won a championship but Rondo has (in his second season, as the fourth best player).

If Rondo won Finals MVP on what peak LBJ called the greatest team he had ever played against (Kawhi Leonard on SAS), half of the posters on this forum would sculpt a massive statue of Rondo's face, blow up a quarter of Mt. Rushmore and then hold off the FBI with a fury that would make Spartan warriors proud as they replaced the crater with Almighty Rondo.

(Maybe that was an exaggeration.  )

It'd take way too long to challenge you on every objection you just raised, but here's one that really boggles my mind: you really don't think Steph Curry is better than Rondo at this point?

No, because he's a me-first, trigger-happy point guard who is a horrible defender who also doesn't make guys better, not to mention that he's been AB-like in the durability department, lol .  Andrew Bogut is the best passer on that team, followed by David Lee, and then Curry, imo.  The only thing that he can do better than Rondo is shoot.

Last year Curry averaged 8.5 apg. This year he averaged 7.7 apg. Why is it that according to many on this site, any PG ranked higher than Rondo must have a higher assist average, but Rondo can be ranked ahead of guys who average 15 more points than he does on far more efficient shooting percentages? And why does doing so make them me-first players?

Curry may shoot a lot of shots, but he also makes plenty of them. Saying that the only thing he can do better than Rondo is shoot is both false and an understatement even if true. He's the filet mignon of shooting while Rondo is the Hamburger Helper. Curry's shot above 45% in every year of his career and this season he's shooting a scorching 49% despite shooting around 24 times a game. He's a career 44% three-point shooter (absolutely insane given how many he takes) and 90% free-throw shooter.

Curry crushes Rondo in almost every advanced statistic, offensive and defensive. The Warriors have been a playoff team for a few years now and are currently dominating an intimidating Western Conference with Curry as their best player by a large margin. If that doesn't indicate that he makes his team better, I'm wondering what would indicate that Rondo makes his team better.

For the last three years or so Curry's defensive analytics are well within Rondo's range and he continues to grow on that end of the floor.

Lol... I thought Curry would have been a massive improvement over Rondo back when Curry was an injured 23 year old averaging 14.7 points, 5.3 assists, and 3.4 rebounds.   I started many a thread pondering how much better the Celtics could be if they somehow conned Golden State into giving up their injured blue chip guard for our overrated "star".  I argued that even though Curry's passing ability wasn't as good and his net stats weren't incredible, he was clearly being "held back" by Monta Ellis and putting him next to Ray Allen, KG and Pierce would have such a dramatic effect on our offensive spacing that it would FAR outweigh the loss of Rondo's ball-dominating distribution skills.  At the time, many fans disagreed with me.  There had even been a report that Ainge attempted to trade Rondo for injured Steph Curry, but Golden State turned it down.   

But at this point?... it'd take a special kind of fan to suggest Rondo is better than Curry.   Come on.

Danny tried to trade Rondo?



To the rest of your argument, all I have to say is .  If Rondo ever pounded the ball, it was because of a decision that was made by our coaching staff.  It's not like he showed up one day and said, "we're doing things this way now."  Curry also would have been a glaring defensive hole on that team that you were thinking of.  Sure, the spacing would have been better, I'll give you that, but Curry is much more of a scorer than a passer.  You think Ray Allen was peeved before when Rondo was always getting him the ball exactly where he wanted it?  Try imagining his frustration with a gunner like Curry.  I don't think that team would have been nearly as successful as you think it would have been, and I'll go a step further - put Curry on our 2009 playoff team, and we wouldn't have even beaten Chicago.  Who would have guarded a pre-injury Derrick Rose?  Curry?  Ahaha.  It'd take a special kind of fan to suggest that Curry is better than Rondo .  Come on.

[tarheelsxxiii]

We're gonna suck. Let's take a few years off... could probably get a lot done in our personal lives before we become relevant again.

[Beat LA]

It'd take way too long to challenge you on every objection you just raised, but here's one that really boggles my mind: you really don't think Steph Curry is better than Rondo at this point?

Well, I pondered this question and all the related ones (Is Deron Williams better than Rondo? Is Kyrie Irving better than Rondo? Etc., etc.), input some numbers and came out with the following answer:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/12/17/7406937/ranking-point-guards-at-the-quarter-pole-an-analytic-approach

The short answer would be:  If you ignore defense, then right now, yep, Steph Curry is probably just barely slightly better than Rondo right now.  I have his net point impact per 36 at the top of the list at 39.2 points per 36.  But Rondo's impact is only slightly behind in 3rd at 37.1.

This rating gives credit for points scored, assists and rebounds and penalizes for turnovers and missed shots.

Just keep in mind that this evaluation is being done with Rondo shooting _way_ below his career norms, to which is likely to eventually regress upwards to.  That could add 2-4 points to his per-36 average.  That alone might push Rondo's net point impact rating up above Curry's.

And seriously?  Rondo's defense is definitely worth more than Curry's.

Here are the resulting ratings as of Monday night's games.  See the link up above for the math.

Player         NetPointImpact/36
Stephen Curry      39.2
Chris Paul         38.5
Rajon Rondo        37.1
John Wall          36.8
James Harden       35.2
Kyle Lowry         34.9
Ty Lawson          33.3
Jeff Teague        32.3
Damian Lillard     31.9
Dwyane Wade        31.7
M. Carter-Williams 31.2
Mike Conley        29.4
Eric Bledsoe       29.1
Jrue Holiday       28.5
Brandon Knight     28.1
Derrick Rose       27.4
Deron Williams     27.2
Tyreke Evans       27.1
Tony Parker        27.0
Brandon Jennings   26.6
Darren Collison    26.4
Kyrie Irving       26.3
Tony Wroten        26.2
Reggie Jackson     26.1
Mo Williams        26.0
Kemba Walker       24.2
Trey Burke         20.2

If I were to take defense into consideration (other than rebounds, which are already accounted for) I would probably put Paul #1, followed by Rondo and then Curry.  Especially if you factor in strength of schedule (Rondo has played against a much harder schedule so far than either Paul or Curry - especially Curry.  GSW has played the 4th easiest schedule so far.).

But even ignoring defense, it is pretty clear that as measured by raw production stats, Rondo is clearly still among the top handful of point guards in the NBA and most of the spew in this thread claiming he is "not even top 30" in the NBA is just hyperbole.

This was a pretty straightforward analysis and I suspect that Danny & Brad's evaluations are at least as sophisticated.  I would bet their sense of Rondo's value is a LOT different than that of several of the bloggers on this board.

TP for the analysis.

Your choice of stats and allocation of weight to each stat is biased to Rondo's style of play in numerous ways, two of which I have the intellect to explain at 4:30 A.M.:

It penalizes other players for missed shots more so than Rondo is penalized for not taking enough shots to be considered as highly as most of those players are. We'll continue the Steph Curry theme of this discussion. Rondo takes, and therefore misses, far less shots than Steph Curry does and yet Rondo does not shoot any more efficiently than Curry does. It is my opinion that you get around this by measuring total missed shots vs. shot efficiency.

It credits players for the entirety of the total points scored off their assist, which is typically nearly double and in some cases triple what you weigh a single turnover. This sort of analysis presumes that without the assist the points would not be scored in the same direct fashion that it is presumed without a player taking and making a shot that the shot's resulting points would not otherwise be scored. I do not assess an assist to have the same point value as a made basket and I am assuming most other advanced metrics don't either, which is why Rondo is ranked so poorly, particularly on offense, by typical advanced metrics this season.

Your analysis pegs Rondo as a top 3 PG while most other statistical analysis suggests he's fighting for a top 20 spot at the position. I'm guessing his value is somewhere in the middle (I rank him around 12th in the league). I also find it hard to believe Danny and Brad are as high on Rondo as you seem to think when Danny has tried to trade Rondo numerous times (CP3, Steph Curry, Sac-Town offer last year that Rondo killed) and Brad has been steadily decreasing his minutes. Within two months of Rondo's return last season, Brad played him about 36 minutes a game to close out the season. In the month of November this average fell to about 32.5 mpg. Now in December Rondo is averaging about 30 mpg. That doesn't sound like a player valued as a top 3 positional talent by his GM and coach.

Yeah, because how are guys like Bradley or Thornton going to score in the exact same fashion off of a pin down or whatever unless Rondo gets them the ball exactly when they come off of said pick?  I know that the definition of an assist has changed over time, but still, how would guys get a layup in transition off of a left handed bounce pass from half court if Rondo doesn't thread that needle?  Give the man his due.  He's somehow leading the league in assists on this craptastic excuse for a team.  And why am I still up, lol?

[Beat LA]

We're gonna suck. Let's take a few years off... could probably get a lot done in our personal lives before we become relevant again.

Why?  Who wants to get sh1t done when we can yell at each other on the internet, crossfire style (sarcasm)?   It's clear that we're following the Congressional model (sarcasm).   Actually, scratch that - at least we can all agree that we're Celtic fans, lol, which is significantly more than I can say for any of our elected representatives.  Ugh.

[tarheelsxxiii]

We're gonna suck. Let's take a few years off... could probably get a lot done in our personal lives before we become relevant again.

Why?  Who wants to get sh1t done when we can yell at each other on the internet, crossfire style (sarcasm)?   It's clear that we're following the Congressional model (sarcasm).   Actually, scratch that - at least we can all agree that we're Celtic fans, lol, which is significantly more than I can say for any of our elected representatives.  Ugh.

Agree with that    I just wish we had some promise... we're in a sucky situation. I do genuinely like our team tho...even Olynyk, who I honestly felt uncomfortable watching for personal reasons. I just hope we can be relevant again before I have children (I'm 30). I don't want to have to explain to them why we obsess over something that makes us sad.