James Posey Threads (merged)

[cordobes]

I'll admit, Pose has looked real good so far for the Hornets. But I'll still stick with my assessment that it was one year too many at the price he was looking for. It just might cost us a banner this year though that is no guarantee in either direction, but it might have won us two banners a bit further down the road.

The expiring deals of the GPA in consecutive years is going to give this team a ton of flexibility to upgrade it's roster during that time and Posey's deal would probably have hindered that. (...)

How? How exactly a MLE contract (and an expiring, for that matter) in the 2011/2012 season could have such an effect? Are we going to need that money in that time to sign someone who will make such a difference?

I never understood that rationale. More, I'm pretty sure that the C's will be operating over the cap till KG is gone.

because its an extra 4.8 mill against the luxury tax every year, and the Celtics aren't the red sox. Wyc cant just laugh 10+ extra million a year (thanks to the tax) off.

Well, didn't Ainge offer a 3 year contract? All that mattered was that 4th year, everything else is a moot point.

and apparently wyc didnt want to pay for 10+ when posey was 37. Its his call, and his money.

I would have loved james back, and we would have been better with him around, but i think he's quickly become the most overrated bench player of all time around here. He's very good of course, but according to some threads here, he can cure malaria with a FT attempt.

He's becoming chuck norris level cult status.

That still doesn't explain how would be paying a MLE contract (and not necessarily luxury tax) in 2011/2012 hinder our chances of winning two banners...

I understand the budgetary restrictions argument to make the case that we should have left Posey walk, not offering him a contract. But to say that what we'd be paying him in a 4th year has such an effect is senseless.

[cordobes]

i understand the celtics not signing re-signing posey because of the length of the contract.  i think 5 years would not have been a wise move.  posey will provide 2-3 years at his level, but by the fifth year, he is a financial risk.

Posey was asking a 4 years contract, not a 5 years one.

[winsomme]

I'll admit, Pose has looked real good so far for the Hornets. But I'll still stick with my assessment that it was one year too many at the price he was looking for. It just might cost us a banner this year though that is no guarantee in either direction, but it might have won us two banners a bit further down the road.

The expiring deals of the GPA in consecutive years is going to give this team a ton of flexibility to upgrade it's roster during that time and Posey's deal would probably have hindered that. (...)

How? How exactly a MLE contract (and an expiring, for that matter) in the 2011/2012 season could have such an effect? Are we going to need that money in that time to sign someone who will make such a difference?

I never understood that rationale. More, I'm pretty sure that the C's will be operating over the cap till KG is gone.

because its an extra 4.8 mill against the luxury tax every year, and the Celtics aren't the red sox. Wyc cant just laugh 10+ extra million a year (thanks to the tax) off.

depends on how it turns out. if his not being here is a big factor in the Big 3 not winning another title, then that will be the most ignominious 4.8 million saved in sports....

i'm sure that if the ownership believed that losing Pose would make it that much more difficult to get another Title, they would have been tripping over themselves to spend that money.

the key mis-judgement was not realizing how important Posey was to the team...not the money involved. plus this team is going to be well over the luxury cap all 4 of the years Posey would have been here.....and you can be sure that if this doesn't work out this year, they will be spending the dough next year to REALLY replace Posey. the last thing IMO this ownership wants is to have wasted the next few years because who knows when it will come around again.

this all being said, the thing that matters to me right now is getting a SF of PF who can knock down three's. that for me is the biggest deficiency left by Posey not being here right now. I mean, I think they miss the whole package - defensive toughness, leadership, intensity, shooting, etc - but the biggest whole not filled right now is his three point shooting.

Eddie and Pose got a ton of easy buckets last year and it really opened up the middle for others to get to work.

[winsomme]

TA, Powe and BBD are not good shooters....I like TA out there, but we need a true backup SF who can knock down jumpers and defend the position.

that's how i see it anyway.

[cordobes]

Posey's absence won't mean much during the regular season. Worst case scenario, Scalabrine has to step up. With more confidence and a defined role, he can start hitting the wide open 3 at a decent rate and solve things. But I don't think we're going to need it.

For the play-offs, yeah, that's a huge concern.

[...]
the key mis-judgement was not realizing how important Posey was to the team...[...]

I don't think it was. If that was the case, Ainge would have moved earlier in the FA market. I believe it was more a mis-judgement of the market: like many in this blog, Ainge thought Posey wouldn't get a 4 year offer or, at the very least, that Posey's agent would give him the chance of matching it.

But I agree it wasn't a money issue at all. We're not talking about $50 million or some amount of that kind, just a $6.8 million salary in 2012 and possible, but far from predictable or expected, luxury taxes implications in that year. And this is not factoring the value of his expiring in 2011.

[Steve Weinman]

I'll admit, Pose has looked real good so far for the Hornets. But I'll still stick with my assessment that it was one year too many at the price he was looking for. It just might cost us a banner this year though that is no guarantee in either direction, but it might have won us two banners a bit further down the road.

The expiring deals of the GPA in consecutive years is going to give this team a ton of flexibility to upgrade it's roster during that time and Posey's deal would probably have hindered that. (...)

How? How exactly a MLE contract (and an expiring, for that matter) in the 2011/2012 season could have such an effect? Are we going to need that money in that time to sign someone who will make such a difference?

I never understood that rationale. More, I'm pretty sure that the C's will be operating over the cap till KG is gone.

because its an extra 4.8 mill against the luxury tax every year, and the Celtics aren't the red sox. Wyc cant just laugh 10+ extra million a year (thanks to the tax) off.

Well, didn't Ainge offer a 3 year contract? All that mattered was that 4th year, everything else is a moot point.

and apparently wyc didnt want to pay for 10+ when posey was 37. Its his call, and his money.

I would have loved james back, and we would have been better with him around, but i think he's quickly become the most overrated bench player of all time around here. He's very good of course, but according to some threads here, he can cure malaria with a FT attempt.

He's becoming chuck norris level cult status.

Are you saying you don't think he can cure malaria with a free throw attempt?

Blasphemy!

 

-sw

[winsomme]

Posey's absence won't mean much during the regular season. Worst case scenario, Scalabrine has to step up. With more confidence and a defined role, he can start hitting the wide open 3 at a decent rate and solve things. But I don't think we're going to need it.

For the play-offs, yeah, that's a huge concern.

[...]
the key mis-judgement was not realizing how important Posey was to the team...[...]

I don't think it was. If that was the case, Ainge would have moved earlier in the FA market. I believe it was more a mis-judgement of the market: like many in this blog, Ainge thought Posey wouldn't get a 4 year offer or, at the very least, that Posey's agent would give him the chance of matching it.

But I agree it wasn't a money issue at all. We're not talking about $50 million or some amount of that kind, just a $6.8 million salary in 2012 and possible, but far from predictable or expected, luxury taxes implications in that year. And this is not factoring the value of his expiring in 2011.

i don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying here, he definitely was trying to get Pose on his terms, but i think when you are a GM and you play with fire like that, you have to be willing to lose out on that player.

so i think when DA didn't offer Pose solid money right from the get-go (wasn't the initial offer something like 2 years and 6 mil?) he must have known it was a possibility that he would lose him....

the biggest problem - something we talked about all summer - is that the other options around the league were slim

[tenn_smoothie]

i understand the celtics not signing re-signing posey because of the length of the contract.  i think 5 years would not have been a wise move.  posey will provide 2-3 years at his level, but by the fifth year, he is a financial risk.

we don't need to worry about 5 yrs. from now - will be rebuilding then anyway.

we need to worry about winning 1-2 more banners in the next three years with the present group. that's the whole ballgame right now. remember paul silas.

[Redz]

i understand the celtics not signing re-signing posey because of the length of the contract.  i think 5 years would not have been a wise move.  posey will provide 2-3 years at his level, but by the fifth year, he is a financial risk.

we don't need to worry about 5 yrs. from now - will be rebuilding then anyway.

we need to worry about winning 1-2 more banners in the next three years with the present group. that's the whole ballgame right now. remember paul silas.

We don't.  Danny does.  Hence the reluctance to sign Pose long term.

[winsomme]

i understand the celtics not signing re-signing posey because of the length of the contract.  i think 5 years would not have been a wise move.  posey will provide 2-3 years at his level, but by the fifth year, he is a financial risk.

we don't need to worry about 5 yrs. from now - will be rebuilding then anyway.

we need to worry about winning 1-2 more banners in the next three years with the present group. that's the whole ballgame right now. remember paul silas.

We don't.  Danny does.  Hence the reluctance to sign Pose long term.

he also needs to worry about not wasting the few years we have left with the Big 3...which IMO should take precedence over our salary cap situation 4 years from now....

i think people forget that KG is entering his 14th season in the league. that means 3 years from now he will be entering his 17th (yes i can add)!!!

we have a very small window here....we need to optimize. and right now our bench is not where it needs to be to make a run at another Title IMO...

[Donoghus]

i understand the celtics not signing re-signing posey because of the length of the contract.  i think 5 years would not have been a wise move.  posey will provide 2-3 years at his level, but by the fifth year, he is a financial risk.

we don't need to worry about 5 yrs. from now - will be rebuilding then anyway.

we need to worry about winning 1-2 more banners in the next three years with the present group. that's the whole ballgame right now. remember paul silas.

We don't.  Danny does.  Hence the reluctance to sign Pose long term.

he also needs to worry about not wasting the few years we have left with the Big 3...which IMO should take precedence over our salary cap situation 4 years from now....

i think people forget that KG is entering his 14th season in the league. that means 3 years from now he will be entering his 17th (yes i can add)!!!

we have a very small window here....we need to optimize. and right now our bench is not where it needs to be to make a run at another Title IMO...

A general manager's job is to plan for the short term AND the long term.  Ideally, there should be a balance between winning now and setting yourself to win in the future.  So far, I think Danny has done a good job at it. 

Obviously, all of us are looking at the short term picture but GMs can't think that way.

[nickagneta]

Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could have won another title.

Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could still win the championship.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could lose the championship and it could be because Posey wasn't here.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could lose the championship and it could have absolutely nothing to do with Posey being here or not.

These are all possibilities and we can squawk about James Posey's absence all year long but until the season is over, we really will have no idea which of the above scenarios occurred. We are three games into the season and haven't a clue as to how it will turn out. Young players could develop into game changers. Stars could get hurt. A team altering trade could happen. The Celtics could easily have a championship hangover and not meld together again. They could cruise to another title with the team as is.

Let's say we wait about half the season to go by before microanalyzing the "Should we have given Pose that extra a year" argument that we went through all summer long.

[Redz]

Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could have won another title.

Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could still win the championship.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could lose the championship and it could be because Posey wasn't here.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could lose the championship and it could have absolutely nothing to do with Posey being here or not.

These are all possibilities and we can squawk about James Posey's absence all year long but until the season is over, we really will have no idea which of the above scenarios occurred. We are three games into the season and haven't a clue as to how it will turn out. Young players could develop into game changers. Stars could get hurt. A team altering trade could happen. The Celtics could easily have a championship hangover and not meld together again. They could cruise to another title with the team as is.

Let's say we wait about half the season to go by before microanalyzing the "Should we have given Pose that extra a year" argument that we went through all summer long.

Where's the fun in that?

[winsomme]

A general manager's job is to plan for the short term AND the long term.  Ideally, there should be a balance between winning now and setting yourself to win in the future.  So far, I think Danny has done a good job at it. 

Obviously, all of us are looking at the short term picture but GMs can't think that way.

it's also the GMs job to prioritize and while i agree that DA has done an outstanding job, i think he made a mistake not re-signing Pose....

but he also hasn't replaced him which is really the most important aspect of the whole thing.

Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

i guess i would disagree with the "just as easily" part of that statement....i don't think they would have just as easily lost with Posey on the team (al things being equal...ie no major injuries to the Big 3, etc...)

but like i said above, the key thing if you're not going to re-sign Pose is to actually replace what he did, and i don't think we have done that yet. and i would rather Danny start working on that now than later because it's not going to be easy.

we don't have a guy off the bench that can guard long wings and we don't have a wing that can knock down three's...gotta start working on that now IMO.

[cordobes]

Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could have won another title.

Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could still win the championship.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could lose the championship and it could be because Posey wasn't here.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could lose the championship and it could have absolutely nothing to do with Posey being here or not.

These are all possibilities and we can squawk about James Posey's absence all year long but until the season is over, we really will have no idea which of the above scenarios occurred. We are three games into the season and haven't a clue as to how it will turn out. Young players could develop into game changers. Stars could get hurt. A team altering trade could happen. The Celtics could easily have a championship hangover and not meld together again. They could cruise to another title with the team as is.

Let's say we wait about half the season to go by before microanalyzing the "Should we have given Pose that extra a year" argument that we went through all summer long.

Nick once again, can you explain how the heck would a single extra year in Posey's contract have the potential to hinder our chances of winning two titles down the road? In what seasons have our chances of winning increased because we're not paying $7 million in 2012?

I think this "long-term planning" stuff is just an attempt to rationalize Ainge's decision, unless people believe that not having those $7 million on the books by the Summer of 2011 will allow the to make some move with a major impact. It's a really far-fetched scenario and nobody has explained what kind of move they are thinking about.

Also, hindsight is not a proper way of evaluating decision-making. I mean, if KG had broken his leg in his first game for the C's, would that make trading for him a bad decision? Of course not, it was the right decision at that time.