How much upside does Joe have?

[slamtheking]

Guess we will find out in the playoffs. The team hasn’t looked great in the new year, but I don’t think it’s fair to ignore the fact that they are missing starters every game and the bench after Brogdon/White is mediocre at best. I don’t think the coach is the main reason the C’s are losing games.

We had a much worse bench last year though, right?

The bench depth was better last season and the 2021/22 version of Grant Williams was superior to this years as well. Ime also went with a shortened rotation which isn’t possible this season with players regularly missing time.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but what depth was better last year?

The end of our bench was Nesmith, Hauser, Fitts, Stauskas, Kornet and Morgan.  Those guys basically didn't play.

This season, we've got a worse Grant, but a better White, Hauser and Kornet.  We're added Brogdon and Muscula.

What depth was better?

To start the season, the C’s had Richardson, Schroder, Kanter, Hernangomez, Langford and a better version of Grant. After the trade deadline they had White, Theis, and a better version of Grant. Ime had the luxury of going with a shortened rotation since the starters weren’t regularly missing time. That isn’t possible this year. A lot of the teams struggles this season comes down to the fact that they aren’t healthy. 3 starters were missing from yesterdays game, yet no one mentions that.

Eh.  Your statement that last year‘s team had more depth is simply incorrect.  You’re shifting the goal posts all over the place, first to the beginning of last season (when the team played poorly) and then to injuries, which have nothing to do with depth.

This year’s overall depth is significantly better.  No reasonable person could disagree.

My statement was about the C’s overall depth last year (which is what you asked) from start to finish. I also mentioned the health of the team, which impacts the rotation and how far down the depth chart the coach has to go. Again, Ime didn’t have to deal with rotation players being out on a regular basis and could go with a short rotation. He was in a much better situation last season than Joe has been this year. I don’t see how that can be ignored.

Timelord: 21 games missed
JB:  16 games missed
Smart:  11 games missed
Horford: 13 games missed
Tatum:  6 games missed

Ime had to deal with plenty of injuries last year.  It’s not the same as this season, but Joe has also had fewer major changes to personnel during the season.

agreed.

also consider that when we've had everyone back (or almost everyone) we haven't looked like world beaters since that ridiculously hot start to the season.  People can point to team health if they want to excuse this team's performance under Joe but just getting everyone back isn't solving the poor play of this team.   Some of that's on the players, some of it's on Joe because he's not getting them in position to succeed, just a position that suits his unwavering game philosophy

[angryguy77]

It doesn’t look promising but i’d still give him the benefit of the doubt. He was suddenly thrust into coaching this team so let’s give him that. His early season success may have been due more to the players’ talents than his coaching skills. Once the other teams got used to the Celtics’ kind of play, suddenly we weren’t such a dominant team anymore. No adjustments, just the same thing over and over. That being said, I think he deserves a full training camp before we can judge him as a coach. But man, I’d really hate to see  this season go to waste after such a promising start.

This IS the case with every team in the NBA. If it wasn’t, Pop wouldn’t be sitting on 18 wins, the second worst record in the league. Kerr has a .500 record this year, Spolestra Is only a few games over that mark. Out of all the major sports, the coach is the least important in the NBA.

Talent is needed, but are you claiming that they would be playing as poorly if Pop was the coach?

[Csfan1984]

A better Erik Spoelsta is his upside.

I think Spoelstra might be the second best coach in the NBA, certainly in the top-5.

What's your assessment of Joe's potential based upon?

College PGs, film coaches, always had a chip, brought in by coaches turned GMs. Some turbulence learning to coach stars right out the gate.

I remember people were calling for Riley to come back to coach. Give Joe some time.

[GetLucky]

A better Erik Spoelsta is his upside.

I think Spoelstra might be the second best coach in the NBA, certainly in the top-5.

What's your assessment of Joe's potential based upon?

College PGs, film coaches, always had a chip, brought in by coaches turned GMs. Some turbulence learning to coach stars right out the gate.

I remember people were calling for Riley to come back to coach. Give Joe some time.

^ Agree with all of this. I'll also add that Joe's offense looked immediately better than Ime's, even after the latter had an entire year to implement his system. That's a 34-year old's system beating that of a decade-long NBA assistant coach and former player.

And, yes, it still looks infinitely better, even though Tatum and Brown aren't getting the off-ball reps they were at the beginning of the year.

[Csfan1984]

A better Erik Spoelsta is his upside.

I think Spoelstra might be the second best coach in the NBA, certainly in the top-5.

What's your assessment of Joe's potential based upon?

College PGs, film coaches, always had a chip, brought in by coaches turned GMs. Some turbulence learning to coach stars right out the gate.

I remember people were calling for Riley to come back to coach. Give Joe some time.

^ Agree with all of this. I'll also add that Joe's offense looked immediately better than Ime's, even after the latter had an entire year to implement his system. That's a 34-year old's system beating that of a decade-long NBA assistant coach and former player.

And, yes, it still looks infinitely better, even though Tatum and Brown aren't getting the off-ball reps they were at the beginning of the year.

I went over how the offense drifted away. I'm wondering if they are saving it for last two weeks and playoffs.

[Roy H.]

A better Erik Spoelsta is his upside.

I think Spoelstra might be the second best coach in the NBA, certainly in the top-5.

What's your assessment of Joe's potential based upon?

College PGs, film coaches, always had a chip, brought in by coaches turned GMs. Some turbulence learning to coach stars right out the gate.

I remember people were calling for Riley to come back to coach. Give Joe some time.

^ Agree with all of this. I'll also add that Joe's offense looked immediately better than Ime's, even after the latter had an entire year to implement his system. That's a 34-year old's system beating that of a decade-long NBA assistant coach and former player.

And, yes, it still looks infinitely better, even though Tatum and Brown aren't getting the off-ball reps they were at the beginning of the year.

I went over how the offense drifted away. I'm wondering if they are saving it for last two weeks and playoffs.

Yeah, on December 8 were we 21-5, with an ORtg of 121.4, a bonkers number.  The next closest team was Phoenix, at 118.3.  The league average was 113.4.

Since December 9, we are 28-18, with an ORtg of 116.7.  That ranks 16th in the NBA.  The league average since that time is 116.5.  So, our offense has been the tiniest speck above average since the 21-5 start.

People often point to our defense being the weak link on this team, but it's the offense.  Our stars are simply not shooting the ball well.

[Csfan1984]

A better Erik Spoelsta is his upside.

I think Spoelstra might be the second best coach in the NBA, certainly in the top-5.

What's your assessment of Joe's potential based upon?

College PGs, film coaches, always had a chip, brought in by coaches turned GMs. Some turbulence learning to coach stars right out the gate.

I remember people were calling for Riley to come back to coach. Give Joe some time.

^ Agree with all of this. I'll also add that Joe's offense looked immediately better than Ime's, even after the latter had an entire year to implement his system. That's a 34-year old's system beating that of a decade-long NBA assistant coach and former player.

And, yes, it still looks infinitely better, even though Tatum and Brown aren't getting the off-ball reps they were at the beginning of the year.

I went over how the offense drifted away. I'm wondering if they are saving it for last two weeks and playoffs.

Yeah, on December 8 were we 21-5, with an ORtg of 121.4, a bonkers number.  The next closest team was Phoenix, at 118.3.  The league average was 113.4.

Since December 9, we are 28-18, with an ORtg of 116.7.  That ranks 16th in the NBA.  The league average since that time is 116.5.  So, our offense has been the tiniest speck above average since the 21-5 start.

People often point to our defense being the weak link on this team, but it's the offense.  Our stars are simply not shooting the ball well.

Player movement and pace is also pretty bad across the board.

[slamtheking]

what's his upside?  well, he's young enough to land a job with another franchise as an assistant when the C's cut bait at the end of a disappointing playoff run. 

if you mean what's his upside relative to the C's --> I think he's been so underwhelming as a coach that a decent coach of moderate experience would have no problem doing a better job with this team so I guess the upside is he's easily replaceable.

[Goldstar88]

Well, apparently the Celtics players think he’s doing a decent job and that’s good enough for me. 


What did you know about head coach Joe Mazzulla before you came to Boston? Malcolm Brogdon: Nothing. I actually didn’t know anything about him at all. And then once I got here before the situation, a few guys told me that he was sort of the mastermind behind our defense and everything in the Finals, and his game plan, his adjustments and his scouting reports were really good.  – via Brandon "Scoop B" Robinson @ Bally Sports

[Roy H.]

Well, apparently the Celtics players think he’s doing a decent job and that’s good enough for me. 


What did you know about head coach Joe Mazzulla before you came to Boston? Malcolm Brogdon: Nothing. I actually didn’t know anything about him at all. And then once I got here before the situation, a few guys told me that he was sort of the mastermind behind our defense and everything in the Finals, and his game plan, his adjustments and his scouting reports were really good.  – via Brandon "Scoop B" Robinson @ Bally Sports

Looks like the guys lied to Brogdon.

[SparzWizard]

Well, apparently the Celtics players think he’s doing a decent job and that’s good enough for me. 


What did you know about head coach Joe Mazzulla before you came to Boston? Malcolm Brogdon: Nothing. I actually didn’t know anything about him at all. And then once I got here before the situation, a few guys told me that he was sort of the mastermind behind our defense and everything in the Finals, and his game plan, his adjustments and his scouting reports were really good.  – via Brandon "Scoop B" Robinson @ Bally Sports

Defense? What defense lol.

No wonder this team folded in the finals. It was him and not Ime the mastermind with game plans in the Finals lol

[SHAQATTACK]

I think the team was supposed to be WH ‘s if Udoka flopped .  Mazz might be thrown in a few years too early as head coach , but I guess he didn’t complain and is trying.  I personally think they need a more authoritative leader , but I’m not Brad or a GM   Nice only takes you so far in some jobs .

[slamtheking]

Well, apparently the Celtics players think he’s doing a decent job and that’s good enough for me. 


What did you know about head coach Joe Mazzulla before you came to Boston? Malcolm Brogdon: Nothing. I actually didn’t know anything about him at all. And then once I got here before the situation, a few guys told me that he was sort of the mastermind behind our defense and everything in the Finals, and his game plan, his adjustments and his scouting reports were really good.  – via Brandon "Scoop B" Robinson @ Bally Sports

Looks like the guys lied to Brogdon.

TP for a good laugh

[Neurotic Guy]

I think the team was supposed to be WH ‘s if Udoka flopped .  Mazz might be thrown in a few years too early as head coach , but I guess he didn’t complain and is trying.  I personally think they need a more authoritative leader , but I’m not Brad or a GM   Nice only takes you so far in some jobs .

I’m a huge fan of nice. Not ashamed to say it. That doesn’t mean I’m not a big fan of clarity, expectations, role-modeling, hard work, learning, and stability.  Being a jerk can work. Just not my cup o tea. A good coach can be a taskmaster, a teacher, and an admired/trusted leader.  My guess is that Spoelstra, as an example, strikes that balance. 

[Kernewek]

Well, apparently the Celtics players think he’s doing a decent job and that’s good enough for me. 


What did you know about head coach Joe Mazzulla before you came to Boston? Malcolm Brogdon: Nothing. I actually didn’t know anything about him at all. And then once I got here before the situation, a few guys told me that he was sort of the mastermind behind our defense and everything in the Finals, and his game plan, his adjustments and his scouting reports were really good.  – via Brandon "Scoop B" Robinson @ Bally Sports

Agreed, but tempted to throw in a Simpsonian 'won't someone think of the armchair psychologists'?