Author Topic: How far exactly has player empowerment gone?  (Read 2385 times)

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Re: How far exactly has player empowerment gone?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2022, 10:03:20 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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It has gone way too far - and has done serious damage to professional sports in our country.
Now the damage is bleeding into college sports.

You're being ironic, I presume?

It's a real shame that cartel is starting to get its comeuppance.


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Re: How far exactly has player empowerment gone?
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2022, 12:58:31 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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It has gone way too far - and has done serious damage to professional sports in our country.
Now the damage is bleeding into college sports.

You're being ironic, I presume?
Wait till you hear the tattoo rant

If there is one way I would say it has negatively impacted the game for fans, it is the roster turnover. The warriors are one of the rare team that has had their core together for 10-12 years. I think that made their most recent title very rewarding them (and perhaps why they never fully took to Durant). We are doing the same thing here and it would be so amazing to watch Tatum, Brown, Smart, Rob Williams, PP and Grant all win a championship here. I think then you have a team like the Clippers were they have like two players they drafted on their rotation. Their fans certainly would not complain about it since they have not won anything, but probably would enjoy it more with some home grown players. I think the turnover also makes it harder for young fans who get attached to a player and have their jersey and basketball cards only for them to disappear a year later.

All that being said, I certainly don't want the players trapped or the owners to have all the power. That is why I think incentives from the league like RFA, Bird rights and super maxes are good. We may be seeing more teams like the grizzlies and wolves keep their teams together.

Re: How far exactly has player empowerment gone?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2022, 11:33:36 PM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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Players are the product. Without the players, there is no money to be made. No reason that college athletes aren't allowed their piece of the very large pie that is the college athletics money making machine.

This. I have no problem whatsoever with the athletes making the most money off the athletics people are paying to see. The rest is just noise.

Re: How far exactly has player empowerment gone?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2022, 11:43:11 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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It has gone way too far - and has done serious damage to professional sports in our country.
Now the damage is bleeding into college sports.

You're being ironic, I presume?
Wait till you hear the tattoo rant

... The warriors are one of the rare team that has had their core together for 10-12 years. I think that made their most recent title very rewarding them (and perhaps why they never fully took to Durant). We are doing the same thing here and it would be so amazing to watch Tatum, Brown, Smart, Rob Williams, PP and Grant all win a championship here.

It seems to me that it also makes possible a perennial contender, and a permanent free agent-magnet.

I wish you had included Al Horford.
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: How far exactly has player empowerment gone?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2022, 08:14:15 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I don't think it has anything to do with player empowerment other than the fact the rules have just made it easier to move around.  In non-sports, people move around all of the time professionally.  I mean lawfirms poach whole business groups from other lawfirms all of the time.  If you are valuable, there is always going to be a market.  The players finally figured that out and finally negotiated a system that allowed them to leave more freely and openly.  That doesn't strike me like player empowerment, but much more like it is the right thing to do.  It balances the playing field a bit more and that is the right thing to do. 
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Re: How far exactly has player empowerment gone?
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2022, 08:41:27 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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I don't have a problem with free agency and player movement.  I do have a problem with players colluding to join up to form super teams.   The Cheatles are the prototype example.  Kyrie and Durant in Brooklyn are the latest. 

Re: How far exactly has player empowerment gone?
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2022, 09:03:34 AM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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It has gone way too far - and has done serious damage to professional sports in our country.
Now the damage is bleeding into college sports.
The sense of making sure the players on the field get some money in college sports, one of the most corrupt systems in all of athletics, is damaging to sports?

Players are the product. Without the players, there is no money to be made. No reason that college athletes aren't allowed their piece of the very large pie that is the college athletics money making machine.

Maybe. But that is not what is happening with the NIL system in college athletics.
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Re: How far exactly has player empowerment gone?
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2022, 09:06:47 AM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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It has gone way too far - and has done serious damage to professional sports in our country.
Now the damage is bleeding into college sports.

You're being ironic, I presume?
Wait till you hear the tattoo rant

You still following me around, Gouk ? Give it a rest buddy.
I would think it would be exhausting to keep up with my posts so you can make some sarcastic comment every time you read one.
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Re: How far exactly has player empowerment gone?
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2022, 05:54:53 AM »

Online ozgod

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I think there's always going to be a tension between players and the front office, like like in any workplace environment where you have talent and you have people who need to manage that talent. I don't see a problem with it because generally the push-and-pull maintains a balance and equilibrium within the guardrails set by tools like the CBA (or workplace contracts/agreements, etc).

The issue is when the balance gets disrupted from one reason of another. When you have a powerful team that unjustly treats its employees, or when you have players that have enough power to dictate terms to their teams. Sometimes they do it within the legal framework of the CBA, such as LeBum where he would sign single year contracts to make sure he had leverage over his teams to sign players he wanted or pick the coach he wanted. Sometimes it's testing those boundaries, like Simmons where he either faked illness or just decided to be such a pain by not playing that the team just wanted to be rid of him.

What really drives it all is self interest and how much pressure the team feels to make a deal and if they think they have a deal that's good enough. The player may have specific places he wants to go. I don't think the team necessarily has to accommodate that. But if a player expresses an interest, and he is good enough, it can create leverage for the current team to try to put pressure on the other team to make a deal. E.g. with AD where he decided he wanted to go to the Fakers. He was under contract for a year and a half, but they made it clear that if he was traded anywhere else (e.g. Boston) it would be a rental and he would leave. Now the Fakers could have waited and just tried to create cap space to sign him outright a year and a half later, but they wanted to make AD (and LeBum) happy so they shelled out a pretty decent package for him but it still took months from the time AD said he wanted a trade. AD kept playing, like a professional, until it happened. NO is happy, the Fakers are happy, AD and LeBum are happy, it's a win all round.

Same thing with Harden. He decided he wanted out, the Nets didn't want to have a malcontent,  Morey wanted to reunite with him, Nets figure that Simmons would be a good fit for KD and Cryrie, Morey manages to get rid of Simmons and gets Harden and the Nets get a decent package back. Could they have waited? Maybe, but pressure to make a deal vs Harden leaving for nothing.

Now the Simmons one is one where he didn't get to go where he wanted. He wanted a Cali team but they shipped him to Brooklyn instead. He wasn't seen as a compelling enough addition that the Cali teams were willing to sacrifice the type of player that Morey wanted in return. So he waited most of the season before he found a deal good enough. Simmons decided to call in the world's longest sickie because he just didn't want to play for Philly anymore but he paid for it financially. But it's a big hit to Simmons' reputation for professionalism, which probably affected his market.

So now with KD, there's no obligation on the Nets to trade him immediately. And they shouldn't. He's under control for four years. They can wait for the best deal. But they know it's ultimately not a good idea to force him to keep playing for them because those things never end well. They know his market will be robust, whether it's immediately or a year from now. They can sit and wait for the best deal to happen.

For me, the issue for teams with player empowerment is less to do with player movement, which is a natural part of the workplace, whether it's the NBA or your average office job. People move jobs all the time. To me it's more when players get so powerful that they start to exert an undue influence on your off-the-court operations, front office decisions. This is where player empowerment has hurt the Nets, as it has hurt the Fakers and the Cavs before them. To get KD and Cryrie Marks and Tsai basically let the players dictate terms to them: 1) they signed DAJ to a 4 year $40m deal because he was KD and Cryrie's friend; 2) allowing the players to put pressure on Kenny Atkinson to play DAJ instead of Jarrett Allen, and then firing Atkinson when it became a "it's us or him" situation; 3) trading all their depth, young players and draft picks for Harden because KD and Cryrie wanted a Big Three; and 4) allowing Cryrie to first take multiple "personal days" in 2019 when KD was sitting out and then letting him hijack their season with this vaccine demand and looking weak when they decided to let him play after first taking a stand which led Harden to leave.

It's that type of things that come with the territory when you have stars that are also prima donnas. Stars these days exert a lot of power and they can wreck your team. That's why culture and character are so important. And that's ultimately the purview of team management. They led their players hijack their team. Joe Tsai has realized that he needs to be the guy in charge, it's his team. Even if he has to lose those players. Now it's to KD's credit that of the three superstars they signed he's the only one that really showed up to work and carried them. But he doesn't want to do it anymore. If they can't find a trade partner to take him before the season starts I'm sure he will show up like the professional he is. But he will figure a way off the team eventually.
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