Are we witnessing Jayson Tatum becoming a top 5 NBA player?

[PhoSita]

I just don't know why it's so important to some people to continue to hold up Jayson Tatum as this wonderful player despite how much the team has struggled as the team has increasingly become centered around him the last couple of seasons.  It's possible to appreciate Tatum without insisting that he has no flaws and all the team's problems are due to everybody but him.

Who is saying that? If anything people are critical of Tatum, they just disagree with your assertions in this thread.

it's my impression, informed to a large extent by interactions in this thread but also elsewhere, that many people are unwilling to revise their basic conception of how good / impactful Tatum is as a player despite a growing sample of the last two seasons where the team is stuck around .500. 

this strikes me as ironic because I think that many of the same people apply the "well a team is as good as its best player so if the team isn't winning a lot of games the best player must not be that great" logic when talking about guys who aren't wearing a Celtics uniform. 

for my part I definitely think that talent drain has been a big part of the story the last few seasons, but I think that's an incomplete explanation for why the team continues to struggle, and it lets the top guys on the team off the hook to a degree that I think is unreasonable.

i'm seeing this come up even in the context of my suggestion that Tatum has not been especially good within the specific context of an extended shooting slump this season.  you would think it would not be especially controversial to say that "hey a lot of Tatum's value in the past has been the fact that he's been an elite outside shooter despite taking a high volume of difficult shots, which means that now that he isn't hitting those shots anymore his value is significantly diminished."  but apparently not.

[Vermont Green]

I just don't know why it's so important to some people to continue to hold up Jayson Tatum as this wonderful player despite how much the team has struggled as the team has increasingly become centered around him the last couple of seasons.  It's possible to appreciate Tatum without insisting that he has no flaws and all the team's problems are due to everybody but him.

Who is saying that? If anything people are critical of Tatum, they just disagree with your assertions in this thread.

I appreciate Tatum.  I am happy to build the team around him.  To be a top 5 player though, there are areas he will need to improve.  Ball movement, getting to the foul line, getting inside vs. settling for jump shots.  Complaining to the refs (did I miss anything?).

I also think the team around him has holes, the schemes they try to run as a team are not well executed by the entire team (making it tough on him when doubled), coaching is not great so far under Udoka, and injuries and illnesses have prevented continuity of playing time for the core starting line up.  Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, Williams have only been on the court together for 16 of 51 games and 194 total minutes.  For perspective, Utah's top line up has 30 games and 481 total minutes together.

Tatum has had some headwinds this year.  The team has not been great.  The coaching has not been great.  There has been a lot of missed time.  Tatum has played bad at time on his own as well.  Tatum is a star though.

[gouki88]

I just don't know why it's so important to some people to continue to hold up Jayson Tatum as this wonderful player despite how much the team has struggled as the team has increasingly become centered around him the last couple of seasons.  It's possible to appreciate Tatum without insisting that he has no flaws and all the team's problems are due to everybody but him.

Who is saying that? If anything people are critical of Tatum, they just disagree with your assertions in this thread.

it's my impression, informed to a large extent by interactions in this thread but also elsewhere, that many people are unwilling to revise their basic conception of how good / impactful Tatum is as a player despite a growing sample of the last two seasons where the team is stuck around .500. 

this strikes me as ironic because I think that many of the same people apply the "well a team is as good as its best player so if the team isn't winning a lot of games the best player must not be that great" logic when talking about guys who aren't wearing a Celtics uniform. 

for my part I definitely think that talent drain has been a big part of the story the last few seasons, but I think that's an incomplete explanation for why the team continues to struggle, and it lets the top guys on the team off the hook to a degree that I think is unreasonable.

i'm seeing this come up even in the context of my suggestion that Tatum has not been especially good within the specific context of an extended shooting slump this season.  you would think it would not be especially controversial to say that "hey a lot of Tatum's value in the past has been the fact that he's been an elite outside shooter despite taking a high volume of difficult shots, which means that now that he isn't hitting those shots anymore his value is significantly diminished."  but apparently not.

Because wins are not even close to the only way to measure a players impact!!!

[nickagneta]

I just don't know why it's so important to some people to continue to hold up Jayson Tatum as this wonderful player despite how much the team has struggled as the team has increasingly become centered around him the last couple of seasons.  It's possible to appreciate Tatum without insisting that he has no flaws and all the team's problems are due to everybody but him.

Who is saying that? If anything people are critical of Tatum, they just disagree with your assertions in this thread.

it's my impression, informed to a large extent by interactions in this thread but also elsewhere, that many people are unwilling to revise their basic conception of how good / impactful Tatum is as a player despite a growing sample of the last two seasons where the team is stuck around .500. 

this strikes me as ironic because I think that many of the same people apply the "well a team is as good as its best player so if the team isn't winning a lot of games the best player must not be that great" logic when talking about guys who aren't wearing a Celtics uniform. 

for my part I definitely think that talent drain has been a big part of the story the last few seasons, but I think that's an incomplete explanation for why the team continues to struggle, and it lets the top guys on the team off the hook to a degree that I think is unreasonable.

i'm seeing this come up even in the context of my suggestion that Tatum has not been especially good within the specific context of an extended shooting slump this season.  you would think it would not be especially controversial to say that "hey a lot of Tatum's value in the past has been the fact that he's been an elite outside shooter despite taking a high volume of difficult shots, which means that now that he isn't hitting those shots anymore his value is significantly diminished."  but apparently not.

The two seasons that you are holding the team's record against Tatum regarding him leading them to a mediocre record are COVID years where the Celtics were severely affected by player games lost due to COVID and injury.

Also, Singer's and Stevens moves to build around the Jays while giving the reins of the team to the two young guys have been meh to really bad.

I just don't understand the idea of judging the Jays abilities as players and as building blocks for the future on the record of the team over two extremely strange COVID seasons that have hurt this team tremendously and poor decisions in upper management in team building around their two star players.

[LilRip]

I just don't know why it's so important to some people to continue to hold up Jayson Tatum as this wonderful player despite how much the team has struggled as the team has increasingly become centered around him the last couple of seasons.  It's possible to appreciate Tatum without insisting that he has no flaws and all the team's problems are due to everybody but him.

Who is saying that? If anything people are critical of Tatum, they just disagree with your assertions in this thread.

it's my impression, informed to a large extent by interactions in this thread but also elsewhere, that many people are unwilling to revise their basic conception of how good / impactful Tatum is as a player despite a growing sample of the last two seasons where the team is stuck around .500. 

this strikes me as ironic because I think that many of the same people apply the "well a team is as good as its best player so if the team isn't winning a lot of games the best player must not be that great" logic when talking about guys who aren't wearing a Celtics uniform. 

for my part I definitely think that talent drain has been a big part of the story the last few seasons, but I think that's an incomplete explanation for why the team continues to struggle, and it lets the top guys on the team off the hook to a degree that I think is unreasonable.

i'm seeing this come up even in the context of my suggestion that Tatum has not been especially good within the specific context of an extended shooting slump this season.  you would think it would not be especially controversial to say that "hey a lot of Tatum's value in the past has been the fact that he's been an elite outside shooter despite taking a high volume of difficult shots, which means that now that he isn't hitting those shots anymore his value is significantly diminished."  but apparently not.

Because wins are not even close to the only way to measure a players impact!!!

Pretty much this and why examples like KG have been brought up. To dismiss Tatum as a star because the teams built around him haven’t won is lazy and misguided. Then when someone does bite on that flawed premise and they say that Tatum was actually the best player on a couple of those ECF teams, you’ve dismissed those too by saying “idk if he was actually the best player”

Tatum is a special talent and despite him having the worst shooting season of his career, he’s still usually the most impactful player on the floor even when you take into account both teams on most nights. As the thread title suggests, he is BECOMING a top 5 NBA player. It’s not saying he is, right now it that he was last year. But imo, from the growth I’ve seen in his game this year vs previous years, it sure does look like he’s becoming one. He’s top 15-20 for sure

[Moranis]

I just don't know why it's so important to some people to continue to hold up Jayson Tatum as this wonderful player despite how much the team has struggled as the team has increasingly become centered around him the last couple of seasons.  It's possible to appreciate Tatum without insisting that he has no flaws and all the team's problems are due to everybody but him.

Who is saying that? If anything people are critical of Tatum, they just disagree with your assertions in this thread.

it's my impression, informed to a large extent by interactions in this thread but also elsewhere, that many people are unwilling to revise their basic conception of how good / impactful Tatum is as a player despite a growing sample of the last two seasons where the team is stuck around .500. 

this strikes me as ironic because I think that many of the same people apply the "well a team is as good as its best player so if the team isn't winning a lot of games the best player must not be that great" logic when talking about guys who aren't wearing a Celtics uniform. 

for my part I definitely think that talent drain has been a big part of the story the last few seasons, but I think that's an incomplete explanation for why the team continues to struggle, and it lets the top guys on the team off the hook to a degree that I think is unreasonable.

i'm seeing this come up even in the context of my suggestion that Tatum has not been especially good within the specific context of an extended shooting slump this season.  you would think it would not be especially controversial to say that "hey a lot of Tatum's value in the past has been the fact that he's been an elite outside shooter despite taking a high volume of difficult shots, which means that now that he isn't hitting those shots anymore his value is significantly diminished."  but apparently not.

How is the talent drain not the real issue?  I mean even the 2020 team has seen a significant talent drain as Boston basically replaced Walker, Hayward, and Theis with Horford, Schroder, and Richardson.  That is a pretty significant drop in talent from the prior to former.  And the 2020 team saw a significant talent downgrade from the 2019 team as Boston went from Irving, Horford, Morris, Rozier, and Baynes to Walker, Wanamaker, Freedom, G. Williams, and Poirier.  Boston has been getting less and less talented for years as the replacements quite simply haven't been as good as the players they were replacing even as Tatum and Brown have gotten better. 

And that is the problem with the team.  Boston is +10.3 points better per 100 possessions with Tatum on the floor.  Which is the 2nd best in his career with only 2020 eclipsing that.  When Tatum is on the bench, the team is terrible because the team doesn't have enough talent.  Tatum is definitely not shooting as well from 3, but he is actually above his career average from both 2 and the line.  He is rebounding and dishing out assists well above his career averages.  The team isn't winning because the team lacks top end talent

[todd_days_41]

I just don't know why it's so important to some people to continue to hold up Jayson Tatum as this wonderful player despite how much the team has struggled as the team has increasingly become centered around him the last couple of seasons.  It's possible to appreciate Tatum without insisting that he has no flaws and all the team's problems are due to everybody but him.

Who is saying that? If anything people are critical of Tatum, they just disagree with your assertions in this thread.

Isn't that what this whole silly thread is about? Inflating how Tatum has evolved out of hope, when he hasn't really yet?

[Rosco917]

Tatum had a nice balanced game last night, and a win is a win.

It doesn't matter that Miami was missing PJ Tucker, Jimmy Butler, Markieff Morris, Kyle Lowry, and Oladepo. 

He allowed Brown to thrive, without hoisting dumb shots in an attempt to steal his thunder.