Author Topic: Sacramento / Ben Simmons  (Read 3198 times)

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Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2022, 04:07:36 PM »

Offline footey

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.
No I'm not.  For a team trying to win the title this season McCollum is a better player than Haliburton.

You mean last season (when he was healthy) not this season (when he is not).

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2022, 04:09:39 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.
No I'm not.  For a team trying to win the title this season McCollum is a better player than Haliburton.

You mean last season (when he was healthy) not this season (when he is not).
McCollum is back.  He played in Portland's last 2 games
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2022, 04:11:12 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.

Agree. I think a lot of teams, if given the choice between Halliburton and Simmons, straight up, would take Halliburton. Even with no pick attached. He’s not the same level of defender, but he is an excellent shooter and facilitator. Assist numbers this year are comparable to Simmons, even though he has far inferior teammates to set up and has the ball in his hands a lot less. When Fox went into the protocol. He was dishing more than 10/game.

And - by all accounts he’s an excellent teammate, glue guy, and leader. Which Simmons, most definitely, is not. Who do I want taking or setting up the last shot in a big game? Not the one-dimensional player whose limitations are widely known.

Also - Tobias Harris’ contract is a bad contract for the team. He’s overpaid, which is why Morey is shopping him.
It isn't Haliburton vs. Simmons, it is Haliburton vs. McCollum.  If I'm the Sixers, I'd rather have McCollum if the goal is to win the title over the next couple of seasons.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2022, 04:33:13 PM »

Offline Celtics2021

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.

Agree. I think a lot of teams, if given the choice between Halliburton and Simmons, straight up, would take Halliburton. Even with no pick attached. He’s not the same level of defender, but he is an excellent shooter and facilitator. Assist numbers this year are comparable to Simmons, even though he has far inferior teammates to set up and has the ball in his hands a lot less. When Fox went into the protocol. He was dishing more than 10/game.

And - by all accounts he’s an excellent teammate, glue guy, and leader. Which Simmons, most definitely, is not. Who do I want taking or setting up the last shot in a big game? Not the one-dimensional player whose limitations are widely known.

Also - Tobias Harris’ contract is a bad contract for the team. He’s overpaid, which is why Morey is shopping him.
It isn't Haliburton vs. Simmons, it is Haliburton vs. McCollum.  If I'm the Sixers, I'd rather have McCollum if the goal is to win the title over the next couple of seasons.

I think Morey would prefer Haliburton plus an easy path to Harden-level cap space if trying to win a title over the next couple of seasons.

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2022, 04:35:20 PM »

Online td450

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.

Agree. I think a lot of teams, if given the choice between Halliburton and Simmons, straight up, would take Halliburton. Even with no pick attached. He’s not the same level of defender, but he is an excellent shooter and facilitator. Assist numbers this year are comparable to Simmons, even though he has far inferior teammates to set up and has the ball in his hands a lot less. When Fox went into the protocol. He was dishing more than 10/game.

And - by all accounts he’s an excellent teammate, glue guy, and leader. Which Simmons, most definitely, is not. Who do I want taking or setting up the last shot in a big game? Not the one-dimensional player whose limitations are widely known.

Also - Tobias Harris’ contract is a bad contract for the team. He’s overpaid, which is why Morey is shopping him.
It isn't Haliburton vs. Simmons, it is Haliburton vs. McCollum.  If I'm the Sixers, I'd rather have McCollum if the goal is to win the title over the next couple of seasons.

You never look at fit. Ever.

The 76ers have Curry and Maxey. You can largely waste those players by choosing McCollum or you can look for a way to work with two points who can score but aren't really playmakers.


Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2022, 04:47:49 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.

Agree. I think a lot of teams, if given the choice between Halliburton and Simmons, straight up, would take Halliburton. Even with no pick attached. He’s not the same level of defender, but he is an excellent shooter and facilitator. Assist numbers this year are comparable to Simmons, even though he has far inferior teammates to set up and has the ball in his hands a lot less. When Fox went into the protocol. He was dishing more than 10/game.

And - by all accounts he’s an excellent teammate, glue guy, and leader. Which Simmons, most definitely, is not. Who do I want taking or setting up the last shot in a big game? Not the one-dimensional player whose limitations are widely known.

Also - Tobias Harris’ contract is a bad contract for the team. He’s overpaid, which is why Morey is shopping him.
It isn't Haliburton vs. Simmons, it is Haliburton vs. McCollum.  If I'm the Sixers, I'd rather have McCollum if the goal is to win the title over the next couple of seasons.

You never look at fit. Ever.

The 76ers have Curry and Maxey. You can largely waste those players by choosing McCollum or you can look for a way to work with two points who can score but aren't really playmakers.
The fit is better with McCollum.  The Sixers biggest problem over the last 5 years is they haven't had a good enough 2nd scorer next to Embiid (outside of the 1 season of Butler when they were a bounced ball away from beating eventual champion Toronto).  They need a legit #2 scoring option, which is why McCollum makes way more sense.  If the Sixers did that trade with Sacramento, who is the #2 scorer?  Barnes, Haliburton, ugh, and they don't even have Harris in that trade (Harris is really a #3 scorer, but is still better at it then anyone coming over from Sacto).  That trade takes Philly further away from a title this year and hinges their entire championship hopes on creating cap space and then trying to land a prime time player into it.  That is an uber risky strategy and absolutely would waste this year.

Philly is much closer to a title with Embiid as the #1, McCollum as the #2, and Harris as the #3, supported by Thybulle, Maxey, Curry, Green, Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, and Drummond then they'd be with Embiid as the #1, Barnes as the #2, Hield as the #3, and Haliburton as the play maker with Maxey, Curry, Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, and Drummond.  Frankly, I don't think it is even close. 

Now as Celtics2021 points out, if the goal is to give up on the season to create future cap space and get more future assets to try to contend in the future, then sure the Sacramento trade has more merit, but I can't see the Sixers giving up title hopes this year, especially given just how good Embiid has been playing. 
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
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SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2022, 05:23:34 PM »

Online Roy H.

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From something called "Kings Beat":

Quote
Everyone not named De’Aaron Fox or Tyrese Haliburton can be had, for the right price. McNair isn’t holding a “going out of business sale.” It’s more of a “ski swap.” Core players like Buddy Hield, Harrison Barnes and Richaun Holmes are available according to a source with knowledge of the situation. The hope is that there are different combinations of players that somehow fit better with Fox and Haliburton.

Quote
According to league sources, the team is confident they can build around both Fox and Haliburton and that is what they hope to do in the coming days and months. Is there a possibility for a late change of heart? Absolutely, but the Kings would have to get a wild over the top deal in order to change their current stance.
– via Kings Beat

Quote
  Sabonis is one of the more interesting names that may find a new home before the NBA trade deadline comes and goes. He’s an All-Star and one of the best passing bigs in the game. According to a league source, Fox is not on the table in a swap for the big, as reported on Wednesday. Neither is Tyrese Haliburton. Can the Kings still land the 25-year-old big man? Maybe, but it would have to be for some package of picks and players and the price is likely going to be high.
– via Kings Beat


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Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2022, 05:45:11 PM »

Offline todd_days_41

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.

Agree. I think a lot of teams, if given the choice between Halliburton and Simmons, straight up, would take Halliburton. Even with no pick attached. He’s not the same level of defender, but he is an excellent shooter and facilitator. Assist numbers this year are comparable to Simmons, even though he has far inferior teammates to set up and has the ball in his hands a lot less. When Fox went into the protocol. He was dishing more than 10/game.

And - by all accounts he’s an excellent teammate, glue guy, and leader. Which Simmons, most definitely, is not. Who do I want taking or setting up the last shot in a big game? Not the one-dimensional player whose limitations are widely known.

Also - Tobias Harris’ contract is a bad contract for the team. He’s overpaid, which is why Morey is shopping him.
It isn't Haliburton vs. Simmons, it is Haliburton vs. McCollum.  If I'm the Sixers, I'd rather have McCollum if the goal is to win the title over the next couple of seasons.

Leaving aside the particulars for the moment, I think the Sixers dealing Simmons to the Blazers for McCollum is FAR more likely than them dealing with the Kings if Morey insists on Haliburton.

In fact, I think a McCollum deal is the most likely across the NBA for Simmons. I just don't think the Sixers will get much more than him. Maybe one young player or pick, and I seriously doubt they're not getting off of Tobias Harris in the process.



Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2022, 06:03:48 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.

Agree. I think a lot of teams, if given the choice between Halliburton and Simmons, straight up, would take Halliburton. Even with no pick attached. He’s not the same level of defender, but he is an excellent shooter and facilitator. Assist numbers this year are comparable to Simmons, even though he has far inferior teammates to set up and has the ball in his hands a lot less. When Fox went into the protocol. He was dishing more than 10/game.

And - by all accounts he’s an excellent teammate, glue guy, and leader. Which Simmons, most definitely, is not. Who do I want taking or setting up the last shot in a big game? Not the one-dimensional player whose limitations are widely known.

Also - Tobias Harris’ contract is a bad contract for the team. He’s overpaid, which is why Morey is shopping him.
It isn't Haliburton vs. Simmons, it is Haliburton vs. McCollum.  If I'm the Sixers, I'd rather have McCollum if the goal is to win the title over the next couple of seasons.

You never look at fit. Ever.

The 76ers have Curry and Maxey. You can largely waste those players by choosing McCollum or you can look for a way to work with two points who can score but aren't really playmakers.
The fit is better with McCollum.  The Sixers biggest problem over the last 5 years is they haven't had a good enough 2nd scorer next to Embiid (outside of the 1 season of Butler when they were a bounced ball away from beating eventual champion Toronto).  They need a legit #2 scoring option, which is why McCollum makes way more sense.  If the Sixers did that trade with Sacramento, who is the #2 scorer?  Barnes, Haliburton, ugh, and they don't even have Harris in that trade (Harris is really a #3 scorer, but is still better at it then anyone coming over from Sacto).  That trade takes Philly further away from a title this year and hinges their entire championship hopes on creating cap space and then trying to land a prime time player into it.  That is an uber risky strategy and absolutely would waste this year.

Philly is much closer to a title with Embiid as the #1, McCollum as the #2, and Harris as the #3, supported by Thybulle, Maxey, Curry, Green, Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, and Drummond then they'd be with Embiid as the #1, Barnes as the #2, Hield as the #3, and Haliburton as the play maker with Maxey, Curry, Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, and Drummond.  Frankly, I don't think it is even close. 

Now as Celtics2021 points out, if the goal is to give up on the season to create future cap space and get more future assets to try to contend in the future, then sure the Sacramento trade has more merit, but I can't see the Sixers giving up title hopes this year, especially given just how good Embiid has been playing.

Sorry I got to correct this every time I see it here or anywhere else. The 76ers were not a bounced ball away from beating the raptors. It was a tied game. Their best case scenario was it missed and went to overtime. For years people have acted like the 76ers were up 2 and Leonard hit a crazy 3 (and not talking about you on this specific part mo, you only had the bounced ball part wrong) They were a bounced ball away from having a chance to beat them in overtime (and on the road no less) and this was in the semi finals. They still could have lost the next round and of course in the finals. They were not really that close but this has become like nba folk lore.

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2022, 07:51:34 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.

Agree. I think a lot of teams, if given the choice between Halliburton and Simmons, straight up, would take Halliburton. Even with no pick attached. He’s not the same level of defender, but he is an excellent shooter and facilitator. Assist numbers this year are comparable to Simmons, even though he has far inferior teammates to set up and has the ball in his hands a lot less. When Fox went into the protocol. He was dishing more than 10/game.

And - by all accounts he’s an excellent teammate, glue guy, and leader. Which Simmons, most definitely, is not. Who do I want taking or setting up the last shot in a big game? Not the one-dimensional player whose limitations are widely known.

Also - Tobias Harris’ contract is a bad contract for the team. He’s overpaid, which is why Morey is shopping him.
It isn't Haliburton vs. Simmons, it is Haliburton vs. McCollum.  If I'm the Sixers, I'd rather have McCollum if the goal is to win the title over the next couple of seasons.

You never look at fit. Ever.

The 76ers have Curry and Maxey. You can largely waste those players by choosing McCollum or you can look for a way to work with two points who can score but aren't really playmakers.
The fit is better with McCollum.  The Sixers biggest problem over the last 5 years is they haven't had a good enough 2nd scorer next to Embiid (outside of the 1 season of Butler when they were a bounced ball away from beating eventual champion Toronto).  They need a legit #2 scoring option, which is why McCollum makes way more sense.  If the Sixers did that trade with Sacramento, who is the #2 scorer?  Barnes, Haliburton, ugh, and they don't even have Harris in that trade (Harris is really a #3 scorer, but is still better at it then anyone coming over from Sacto).  That trade takes Philly further away from a title this year and hinges their entire championship hopes on creating cap space and then trying to land a prime time player into it.  That is an uber risky strategy and absolutely would waste this year.

Philly is much closer to a title with Embiid as the #1, McCollum as the #2, and Harris as the #3, supported by Thybulle, Maxey, Curry, Green, Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, and Drummond then they'd be with Embiid as the #1, Barnes as the #2, Hield as the #3, and Haliburton as the play maker with Maxey, Curry, Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, and Drummond.  Frankly, I don't think it is even close. 

Now as Celtics2021 points out, if the goal is to give up on the season to create future cap space and get more future assets to try to contend in the future, then sure the Sacramento trade has more merit, but I can't see the Sixers giving up title hopes this year, especially given just how good Embiid has been playing.

Sorry I got to correct this every time I see it here or anywhere else. The 76ers were not a bounced ball away from beating the raptors. It was a tied game. Their best case scenario was it missed and went to overtime. For years people have acted like the 76ers were up 2 and Leonard hit a crazy 3 (and not talking about you on this specific part mo, you only had the bounced ball part wrong) They were a bounced ball away from having a chance to beat them in overtime (and on the road no less) and this was in the semi finals. They still could have lost the next round and of course in the finals. They were not really that close but this has become like nba folk lore.
I don't think they beat Milwaukee in the next round, but that is the best they've done since Iverson and I don't think it is a coincidence that it happened when they had a real and legit #2 scorer in Butler.  That to me had always been the issue they've had.  They don't have anyone that can create for themselves outside of Embiid, so when he isn't in the game, they are terrible offensively.  Harris just isn't good enough and that isn't Simmons strength.  That is why I think McCollum could absolutely elevate them into title contention even with Don there to make terrible coaching decisions.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2022, 07:55:57 PM »

Offline Who

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.

Agree. I think a lot of teams, if given the choice between Halliburton and Simmons, straight up, would take Halliburton. Even with no pick attached. He’s not the same level of defender, but he is an excellent shooter and facilitator. Assist numbers this year are comparable to Simmons, even though he has far inferior teammates to set up and has the ball in his hands a lot less. When Fox went into the protocol. He was dishing more than 10/game.

And - by all accounts he’s an excellent teammate, glue guy, and leader. Which Simmons, most definitely, is not. Who do I want taking or setting up the last shot in a big game? Not the one-dimensional player whose limitations are widely known.

Also - Tobias Harris’ contract is a bad contract for the team. He’s overpaid, which is why Morey is shopping him.
It isn't Haliburton vs. Simmons, it is Haliburton vs. McCollum.  If I'm the Sixers, I'd rather have McCollum if the goal is to win the title over the next couple of seasons.

You never look at fit. Ever.

The 76ers have Curry and Maxey. You can largely waste those players by choosing McCollum or you can look for a way to work with two points who can score but aren't really playmakers.
The fit is better with McCollum.  The Sixers biggest problem over the last 5 years is they haven't had a good enough 2nd scorer next to Embiid (outside of the 1 season of Butler when they were a bounced ball away from beating eventual champion Toronto).  They need a legit #2 scoring option, which is why McCollum makes way more sense.  If the Sixers did that trade with Sacramento, who is the #2 scorer?  Barnes, Haliburton, ugh, and they don't even have Harris in that trade (Harris is really a #3 scorer, but is still better at it then anyone coming over from Sacto).  That trade takes Philly further away from a title this year and hinges their entire championship hopes on creating cap space and then trying to land a prime time player into it.  That is an uber risky strategy and absolutely would waste this year.

Philly is much closer to a title with Embiid as the #1, McCollum as the #2, and Harris as the #3, supported by Thybulle, Maxey, Curry, Green, Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, and Drummond then they'd be with Embiid as the #1, Barnes as the #2, Hield as the #3, and Haliburton as the play maker with Maxey, Curry, Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, and Drummond.  Frankly, I don't think it is even close. 

Now as Celtics2021 points out, if the goal is to give up on the season to create future cap space and get more future assets to try to contend in the future, then sure the Sacramento trade has more merit, but I can't see the Sixers giving up title hopes this year, especially given just how good Embiid has been playing.

Sorry I got to correct this every time I see it here or anywhere else. The 76ers were not a bounced ball away from beating the raptors. It was a tied game. Their best case scenario was it missed and went to overtime. For years people have acted like the 76ers were up 2 and Leonard hit a crazy 3 (and not talking about you on this specific part mo, you only had the bounced ball part wrong) They were a bounced ball away from having a chance to beat them in overtime (and on the road no less) and this was in the semi finals. They still could have lost the next round and of course in the finals. They were not really that close but this has become like nba folk lore.
I don't think they beat Milwaukee in the next round, but that is the best they've done since Iverson and I don't think it is a coincidence that it happened when they had a real and legit #2 scorer in Butler.  That to me had always been the issue they've had.  They don't have anyone that can create for themselves outside of Embiid, so when he isn't in the game, they are terrible offensively.  Harris just isn't good enough and that isn't Simmons strength.  That is why I think McCollum could absolutely elevate them into title contention even with Don there to make terrible coaching decisions.

Agreed. McCollum would be fantastic for Philly.

It is important to have that perimeter guy who can play off the bounce. Who can create his own offense off the dribble. Who can play the two man game with Embiid in the PnR. Who can create off the dribble after Embiid draws a double a kicks it out giving Philly that secondary penetration against a scrambling defense for a superior shot attempt.

It also allows Tobias Harris to revert back to being a #3 scoring option which he is more suited to.

McCollum's capacity to function as either a PG or a SG gives him good lineup flexibility next to Philly's other guards.

Plus he is a lethal shooter when left open which is always great next to Embiid.

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2022, 10:23:59 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.

Agree. I think a lot of teams, if given the choice between Halliburton and Simmons, straight up, would take Halliburton. Even with no pick attached. He’s not the same level of defender, but he is an excellent shooter and facilitator. Assist numbers this year are comparable to Simmons, even though he has far inferior teammates to set up and has the ball in his hands a lot less. When Fox went into the protocol. He was dishing more than 10/game.

And - by all accounts he’s an excellent teammate, glue guy, and leader. Which Simmons, most definitely, is not. Who do I want taking or setting up the last shot in a big game? Not the one-dimensional player whose limitations are widely known.

Also - Tobias Harris’ contract is a bad contract for the team. He’s overpaid, which is why Morey is shopping him.
It isn't Haliburton vs. Simmons, it is Haliburton vs. McCollum.  If I'm the Sixers, I'd rather have McCollum if the goal is to win the title over the next couple of seasons.

You never look at fit. Ever.

The 76ers have Curry and Maxey. You can largely waste those players by choosing McCollum or you can look for a way to work with two points who can score but aren't really playmakers.
The fit is better with McCollum.  The Sixers biggest problem over the last 5 years is they haven't had a good enough 2nd scorer next to Embiid (outside of the 1 season of Butler when they were a bounced ball away from beating eventual champion Toronto).  They need a legit #2 scoring option, which is why McCollum makes way more sense.  If the Sixers did that trade with Sacramento, who is the #2 scorer?  Barnes, Haliburton, ugh, and they don't even have Harris in that trade (Harris is really a #3 scorer, but is still better at it then anyone coming over from Sacto).  That trade takes Philly further away from a title this year and hinges their entire championship hopes on creating cap space and then trying to land a prime time player into it.  That is an uber risky strategy and absolutely would waste this year.

Philly is much closer to a title with Embiid as the #1, McCollum as the #2, and Harris as the #3, supported by Thybulle, Maxey, Curry, Green, Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, and Drummond then they'd be with Embiid as the #1, Barnes as the #2, Hield as the #3, and Haliburton as the play maker with Maxey, Curry, Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, and Drummond.  Frankly, I don't think it is even close. 

Now as Celtics2021 points out, if the goal is to give up on the season to create future cap space and get more future assets to try to contend in the future, then sure the Sacramento trade has more merit, but I can't see the Sixers giving up title hopes this year, especially given just how good Embiid has been playing.

Sorry I got to correct this every time I see it here or anywhere else. The 76ers were not a bounced ball away from beating the raptors. It was a tied game. Their best case scenario was it missed and went to overtime. For years people have acted like the 76ers were up 2 and Leonard hit a crazy 3 (and not talking about you on this specific part mo, you only had the bounced ball part wrong) They were a bounced ball away from having a chance to beat them in overtime (and on the road no less) and this was in the semi finals. They still could have lost the next round and of course in the finals. They were not really that close but this has become like nba folk lore.
I don't think they beat Milwaukee in the next round, but that is the best they've done since Iverson and I don't think it is a coincidence that it happened when they had a real and legit #2 scorer in Butler.  That to me had always been the issue they've had.  They don't have anyone that can create for themselves outside of Embiid, so when he isn't in the game, they are terrible offensively.  Harris just isn't good enough and that isn't Simmons strength.  That is why I think McCollum could absolutely elevate them into title contention even with Don there to make terrible coaching decisions.

Agreed. McCollum would be fantastic for Philly.

It is important to have that perimeter guy who can play off the bounce. Who can create his own offense off the dribble. Who can play the two man game with Embiid in the PnR. Who can create off the dribble after Embiid draws a double a kicks it out giving Philly that secondary penetration against a scrambling defense for a superior shot attempt.

It also allows Tobias Harris to revert back to being a #3 scoring option which he is more suited to.

McCollum's capacity to function as either a PG or a SG gives him good lineup flexibility next to Philly's other guards.

Plus he is a lethal shooter when left open which is always great next to Embiid.
Yep.  Which is why if I'm Philly, I'd rather just trade Simmons for McCollum then give up the other guys to downgrade at those positions. 
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2022, 02:35:33 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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I still think the most interesting potential Simmons trade out there, which I know will never happen is

Simmons + Harris for Davis + Westbrook (other parts and pieces can obviously be included)

That would be a fascinating trade and I don't even think Philly needs Westbrook to play.  They could theoretically just send him home and still win the title with Embiid and Davis down low.  Impossible for other teams to defend. 

The Lakers get out of Westbrook, and obviously Davis (if healthy) would be the best player in the trade, but Davis can't be relied on to be healthy and this way they get 2 very good players, one of which, could be a future long term franchise star in Simmons.  It would be a really interesting trade for both teams.

I can't grasp how this is anything but horrifying for the Lakers.

If they do this deal then they have about 90% of their salary invested in Simmons (who can't shoot and chokes in the playoffs), Harris (who is a solid starter at best) and Lebron (who is 38 years old). 

Even with the health issues, if the Lakers wanted to entertain trading Anthony Davis I think they could do a lot better then Simmons + Harris in return.  There's almost certainly someone out there who is willing to offer a LOT in order to take a gamble on 4 years of Anthony Davis. 

If you get lucky and AD manages to stay healthy for a year or two he's easily the type of piece that could turn a good team into a champion.  Can't say the same about Simmons or Harris.  I think that exchange is so bad that eve dumping Westbrook doesn't make it worth it.

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2022, 02:37:39 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.

Agree. I think a lot of teams, if given the choice between Halliburton and Simmons, straight up, would take Halliburton. Even with no pick attached. He’s not the same level of defender, but he is an excellent shooter and facilitator. Assist numbers this year are comparable to Simmons, even though he has far inferior teammates to set up and has the ball in his hands a lot less. When Fox went into the protocol. He was dishing more than 10/game.

And - by all accounts he’s an excellent teammate, glue guy, and leader. Which Simmons, most definitely, is not. Who do I want taking or setting up the last shot in a big game? Not the one-dimensional player whose limitations are widely known.

Also - Tobias Harris’ contract is a bad contract for the team. He’s overpaid, which is why Morey is shopping him.
It isn't Haliburton vs. Simmons, it is Haliburton vs. McCollum.  If I'm the Sixers, I'd rather have McCollum if the goal is to win the title over the next couple of seasons.

You never look at fit. Ever.

The 76ers have Curry and Maxey. You can largely waste those players by choosing McCollum or you can look for a way to work with two points who can score but aren't really playmakers.
The fit is better with McCollum.  The Sixers biggest problem over the last 5 years is they haven't had a good enough 2nd scorer next to Embiid (outside of the 1 season of Butler when they were a bounced ball away from beating eventual champion Toronto).  They need a legit #2 scoring option, which is why McCollum makes way more sense.  If the Sixers did that trade with Sacramento, who is the #2 scorer?  Barnes, Haliburton, ugh, and they don't even have Harris in that trade (Harris is really a #3 scorer, but is still better at it then anyone coming over from Sacto).  That trade takes Philly further away from a title this year and hinges their entire championship hopes on creating cap space and then trying to land a prime time player into it.  That is an uber risky strategy and absolutely would waste this year.

Philly is much closer to a title with Embiid as the #1, McCollum as the #2, and Harris as the #3, supported by Thybulle, Maxey, Curry, Green, Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, and Drummond then they'd be with Embiid as the #1, Barnes as the #2, Hield as the #3, and Haliburton as the play maker with Maxey, Curry, Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, and Drummond.  Frankly, I don't think it is even close. 

Now as Celtics2021 points out, if the goal is to give up on the season to create future cap space and get more future assets to try to contend in the future, then sure the Sacramento trade has more merit, but I can't see the Sixers giving up title hopes this year, especially given just how good Embiid has been playing.

Sorry I got to correct this every time I see it here or anywhere else. The 76ers were not a bounced ball away from beating the raptors. It was a tied game. Their best case scenario was it missed and went to overtime. For years people have acted like the 76ers were up 2 and Leonard hit a crazy 3 (and not talking about you on this specific part mo, you only had the bounced ball part wrong) They were a bounced ball away from having a chance to beat them in overtime (and on the road no less) and this was in the semi finals. They still could have lost the next round and of course in the finals. They were not really that close but this has become like nba folk lore.
I don't think they beat Milwaukee in the next round, but that is the best they've done since Iverson and I don't think it is a coincidence that it happened when they had a real and legit #2 scorer in Butler.  That to me had always been the issue they've had.  They don't have anyone that can create for themselves outside of Embiid, so when he isn't in the game, they are terrible offensively.  Harris just isn't good enough and that isn't Simmons strength.  That is why I think McCollum could absolutely elevate them into title contention even with Don there to make terrible coaching decisions.

Agreed. McCollum would be fantastic for Philly.

It is important to have that perimeter guy who can play off the bounce. Who can create his own offense off the dribble. Who can play the two man game with Embiid in the PnR. Who can create off the dribble after Embiid draws a double a kicks it out giving Philly that secondary penetration against a scrambling defense for a superior shot attempt.

It also allows Tobias Harris to revert back to being a #3 scoring option which he is more suited to.

McCollum's capacity to function as either a PG or a SG gives him good lineup flexibility next to Philly's other guards.

Plus he is a lethal shooter when left open which is always great next to Embiid.
Yep.  Which is why if I'm Philly, I'd rather just trade Simmons for McCollum then give up the other guys to downgrade at those positions.

That probably does make a lot of sense. 

The a guy with Simmon's defensive talent and play-making ability could be a match made in heaven alongside Lillard.  And a deadly perimeter scorer/shooter like McCollum is exactly what the Sixers need to help take some pressure off Embiid. 

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2022, 08:15:22 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I still think the most interesting potential Simmons trade out there, which I know will never happen is

Simmons + Harris for Davis + Westbrook (other parts and pieces can obviously be included)

That would be a fascinating trade and I don't even think Philly needs Westbrook to play.  They could theoretically just send him home and still win the title with Embiid and Davis down low.  Impossible for other teams to defend. 

The Lakers get out of Westbrook, and obviously Davis (if healthy) would be the best player in the trade, but Davis can't be relied on to be healthy and this way they get 2 very good players, one of which, could be a future long term franchise star in Simmons.  It would be a really interesting trade for both teams.

I can't grasp how this is anything but horrifying for the Lakers.

If they do this deal then they have about 90% of their salary invested in Simmons (who can't shoot and chokes in the playoffs), Harris (who is a solid starter at best) and Lebron (who is 38 years old). 

Even with the health issues, if the Lakers wanted to entertain trading Anthony Davis I think they could do a lot better then Simmons + Harris in return.  There's almost certainly someone out there who is willing to offer a LOT in order to take a gamble on 4 years of Anthony Davis. 

If you get lucky and AD manages to stay healthy for a year or two he's easily the type of piece that could turn a good team into a champion.  Can't say the same about Simmons or Harris.  I think that exchange is so bad that eve dumping Westbrook doesn't make it worth it.

I don't think Davis is getting traded so I am not going to go anywhere with that part but  how about just Westbrook for Harris and then Simmons for McCollum?  Leaves the Sixers with:

Westbrook
McCollum
Green
Drummond?
Embiid

Sixers would not really have a PF but they don't really have one now.  For the Lakers:

Monk
Bradley
Harris
LeBron
Davis