Author Topic: Sacramento / Ben Simmons  (Read 5727 times)

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Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2022, 05:06:58 PM »

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Don't blame them. That deal doesn't make them better.

Simmons for that package is great but losing T.Harris and Thybulle as well? Too much. That new-look Sixers team is barely any better than their current team without Simmons.

Your opinion of Tobias Harris is evidently much more favorable than mine. He definitely isn't worth $80 million over the next two seasons.

He isn't worth the money but he is still a good player. Thybulle is a good player as well. They are losing two important players (or 1 important and 1 good bench player) in addition to B.Simmons.

They are getting 3 good players back, yes .... but they are losing 3 good players in the deal also.

No, from this year's team they're losing good players, because Simmons doesn't play.  And going forward next summer they could pretty easily get max cap space if they moved Hield to add a star next to Embied.

So this is a cap dump?

So the keep Haliburton and dump Hield and H.Barnes? Is that correct? And then they can afford a star player?

Next year they could afford a max player who isn't James Harden solely by moving Hield.  They could keep Barnes and Haliburton both.  If they wanted Harden, they'd have to move another (smaller) salary, like Korkmuz.

(Also, I typoed in my initial post, and meant to say they're losing two players this year, not three, because Simmons doesn't play).

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2022, 05:08:04 PM »

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Don't blame them. That deal doesn't make them better.

Simmons for that package is great but losing T.Harris and Thybulle as well? Too much. That new-look Sixers team is barely any better than their current team without Simmons.

Your opinion of Tobias Harris is evidently much more favorable than mine. He definitely isn't worth $80 million over the next two seasons.

He isn't worth the money but he is still a good player. Thybulle is a good player as well. They are losing two important players (or 1 important and 1 good bench player) in addition to B.Simmons.

They are getting 3 good players back, yes .... but they are losing 3 good players in the deal also.

No, from this year's team they're losing good players, because Simmons doesn't play.  And going forward next summer they could pretty easily get max cap space if they moved Hield to add a star next to Embied.

So this is a cap dump?

So the keep Haliburton and dump Hield and H.Barnes? Is that correct? And then they can afford a star player?

Next year they could afford a max player who isn't James Harden solely by moving Hield.  They could keep Barnes and Haliburton both.  If they wanted Harden, they'd have to move another (smaller) salary, like Korkmuz.

Cool. Okay, I'd be on board with that.

Haliburton, H.Barnes, Embiid and a max contract player is a formidable Big 4 to build a title contender around.

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2022, 05:23:58 PM »

Offline todd_days_41

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Quote
One source said Sacramento is considering to package Buddy Hield, Tyrese Haliburton, Harrison Barnes and two first-round picks for Simmons, Harris and Matisse Thybulle. However, the source said the Sixers aren’t interested in that package

Hilarious. From a Philly reporter of course.

"Hmmmmm let's see. We can dump 3 horrific NBA shooters -- two of which are grossly overpaid, one of which literally doesn't even play anymore -- for 2 elite NBA shooters to put around Embiid, one of the best, most versitile young guards in the NBA who stands a great chance to become a true star, and... hey.... two first round picks to boot? Oh, and we'll save like $75M over the next couple years and get ANY kind of flexibility back?"

Remember the Apollo 13 scene at the end? Inside Mission Control when Hanks finally makes radio contact after re-entry? That's Elton Brand and Daryl Morey's celebration level if they ever received this offer.


« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 05:35:51 PM by todd_days_41 »

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2022, 09:53:02 AM »

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I still think the most interesting potential Simmons trade out there, which I know will never happen is

Simmons + Harris for Davis + Westbrook (other parts and pieces can obviously be included)

That would be a fascinating trade and I don't even think Philly needs Westbrook to play.  They could theoretically just send him home and still win the title with Embiid and Davis down low.  Impossible for other teams to defend. 

The Lakers get out of Westbrook, and obviously Davis (if healthy) would be the best player in the trade, but Davis can't be relied on to be healthy and this way they get 2 very good players, one of which, could be a future long term franchise star in Simmons.  It would be a really interesting trade for both teams. 
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Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2022, 10:14:21 AM »

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If that offer is real, then wow. 

Sac is solving Philly's two biggest problems in exchange for a solid starting PG, a solid starting SF, and a solid sixth man SG, all of whom fit well around Embiid... AND they're kicking picks in?  The only thing Philly would be missing is some additional defensive presence and that second star... which they could now afford with the money they save by getting out from under Simmons and Harris. They're going to make Philly a top-tier title contender for as long as Embiid stays healthy.

What else do you have to see, if you're Morey? 

On the other end of the rope... good luck getting Fox, Simmons, Harris, and Thybulle to fit together on offense, Kangz.

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2022, 11:19:08 AM »

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If that offer is real, then wow. 

Sac is solving Philly's two biggest problems in exchange for a solid starting PG, a solid starting SF, and a solid sixth man SG, all of whom fit well around Embiid... AND they're kicking picks in?  The only thing Philly would be missing is some additional defensive presence and that second star... which they could now afford with the money they save by getting out from under Simmons and Harris. They're going to make Philly a top-tier title contender for as long as Embiid stays healthy.

What else do you have to see, if you're Morey? 

On the other end of the rope... good luck getting Fox, Simmons, Harris, and Thybulle to fit together on offense, Kangz.

Agreed. That offer is not real.

Among other things, who else in the league is offering anything CLOSE to that for Simmons? I doubt anyone. And since NBA GMs are not Fantasy GMs, the Kings would likely know that.


Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2022, 11:30:21 AM »

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If that offer is real, then wow. 

Sac is solving Philly's two biggest problems in exchange for a solid starting PG, a solid starting SF, and a solid sixth man SG, all of whom fit well around Embiid... AND they're kicking picks in?  The only thing Philly would be missing is some additional defensive presence and that second star... which they could now afford with the money they save by getting out from under Simmons and Harris. They're going to make Philly a top-tier title contender for as long as Embiid stays healthy.

What else do you have to see, if you're Morey? 

On the other end of the rope... good luck getting Fox, Simmons, Harris, and Thybulle to fit together on offense, Kangz.

Agreed. That offer is not real.

Among other things, who else in the league is offering anything CLOSE to that for Simmons? I doubt anyone. And since NBA GMs are not Fantasy GMs, the Kings would likely know that.

Yeah.  To me, this isn't even effective as a rumor floated by the 76ers to drive the price up, because nobody is going to believe that the Kings are that stupid (maybe) and that the Sixers passed on that insanity.

We're talking about a trade in which the Sixers upgrade from Harris to Barnes; get a blue chip prospect in Haliburton; add an elite shooter; clear a huge amount of cap space; and get two very likely lottery picks.

That's like a Sixers fan's fever dream.


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Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2022, 01:04:19 PM »

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If that offer is real, then wow. 

Sac is solving Philly's two biggest problems in exchange for a solid starting PG, a solid starting SF, and a solid sixth man SG, all of whom fit well around Embiid... AND they're kicking picks in?  The only thing Philly would be missing is some additional defensive presence and that second star... which they could now afford with the money they save by getting out from under Simmons and Harris. They're going to make Philly a top-tier title contender for as long as Embiid stays healthy.

What else do you have to see, if you're Morey? 

On the other end of the rope... good luck getting Fox, Simmons, Harris, and Thybulle to fit together on offense, Kangz.

Agreed. That offer is not real.

Among other things, who else in the league is offering anything CLOSE to that for Simmons? I doubt anyone. And since NBA GMs are not Fantasy GMs, the Kings would likely know that.

Yeah.  To me, this isn't even effective as a rumor floated by the 76ers to drive the price up, because nobody is going to believe that the Kings are that stupid (maybe) and that the Sixers passed on that insanity.

We're talking about a trade in which the Sixers upgrade from Harris to Barnes; get a blue chip prospect in Haliburton; add an elite shooter; clear a huge amount of cap space; and get two very likely lottery picks.

That's like a Sixers fan's fever dream.

Morey is a true operator. I suspect we'll continue to see hogwash like this in the press until the deadline, at which point they'll ship him for something less than everyone expects because no GM is fooled.

The Sixers are in an awful spot. They have a very talented but highly flawed player who needs a team built VERY SPECIFICALLY around him to work out (or hope to work), and yet he's paid out the nose for years to come. And that guy? Personally, emotionally... he's checked out, but he's still collecting his check. When he's traded, will he check back in? For how long? Might he struggle emotionally in game? Pass up lay-ups in the playoffs for fear of being fouled?

The Sixers are not going to win this staring contest to the tune of a package like what's suggested above.





Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2022, 01:15:08 PM »

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.
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Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2022, 01:50:36 PM »

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

You see McCollum as better than Haliburton, two likely lottery picks, and a boatload of cap space?


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Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2022, 01:54:27 PM »

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.


Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2022, 03:09:59 PM »

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.

Agree. I think a lot of teams, if given the choice between Halliburton and Simmons, straight up, would take Halliburton. Even with no pick attached. He’s not the same level of defender, but he is an excellent shooter and facilitator. Assist numbers this year are comparable to Simmons, even though he has far inferior teammates to set up and has the ball in his hands a lot less. When Fox went into the protocol. He was dishing more than 10/game.

And - by all accounts he’s an excellent teammate, glue guy, and leader. Which Simmons, most definitely, is not. Who do I want taking or setting up the last shot in a big game? Not the one-dimensional player whose limitations are widely known.

Also - Tobias Harris’ contract is a bad contract for the team. He’s overpaid, which is why Morey is shopping him.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 03:21:56 PM by Sophomore »

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2022, 03:18:32 PM »

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

You see McCollum as better than Haliburton, two likely lottery picks, and a boatload of cap space?

Yeah.  I mean, the McCollum trade is more realistic (because the crazy Sacramento trade doesn't work with the cap rules, for one).  But the Sacramento "offer" is far superior to just getting a guy like McCollum and going forward, and I can't imagine Morey would have rejected it if it were real.

Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2022, 04:05:13 PM »

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

You see McCollum as better than Haliburton, two likely lottery picks, and a boatload of cap space?
They only get cap space if they dump Hield and potentially more salary and that wastes this year when the NBA is pretty wide open.  I also don't think those are for sure going to be lottery picks, I mean Sacramento is almost definitely making the play in if they make that trade and should only get better. 

Then add to that Embiid could have that last injury at any time.  I just don't think Philly should be wasting a year, especially a wide open year, by downgrading their roster this year.  Even if it may work out better long term, there is no question that McCollum is better than Haliburton right now and probably at least another year or two.  And Harris is better than Barnes and I don't think Hield does much for them especially at the expense of Thybulle's defense (I mean the Sixers already have Curry who is a better shooter than Hield), they have Maxey who is also shooting above 40%, and Green is still a solid 39%.  The Sixers don't need Hield's shooting, while they absolutely need Thybulle's defense. 

So yeah I'd rather have McCollum because I think that with McCollum, Harris, and Thybulle they absolutely could win the title this year, while I do not think they'd win the title this year with Barnes, Haliburton, and Hield (I'm not even sure they'd make the ECF with those 3 around Embiid).  And the #1 goal for the Sixers should be trying to win the title as soon as possible because Embiid could suffer that career altering injury at any time.
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Re: Sacramento / Ben Simmons
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2022, 04:06:31 PM »

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I think I'm with Who on this one in that, I don't know that the trade makes Philly better (or at least better than other options).  Harris is better than Barnes.  Not a better shooter, but a better rebounder and passer who can do more with the ball and is a more varied and prolific scorer, and thus is a better fit with Embiid.  Losing Thybulle would hurt their defense a lot, especially for Hield who is a terrible defender.  Hield is obviously a much better shooter, but they don't really need shooting, especially without Simmons and his non-shooting not being on the floor.  Obviously Halliburton is better than a guy not playing, but they can get more for Simmons alone than just Halliburton and a couple of 1st's.  They are much better off just doing something like McCollum for Simmons straight up (though I think they could get more than just McCollum).  That trade makes them better than this proposed one with the Kings.

This is pretty misguided across the board, IMO. You're overvaluing Simmons. And you're undervaluing Haliburton pretty badly.
No I'm not.  For a team trying to win the title this season McCollum is a better player than Haliburton.
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