Author Topic: Grant Williams is...  (Read 4401 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2021, 06:48:41 PM »

Offline PAOBoston

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8098
  • Tommy Points: 533
Tradeable

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2021, 07:11:57 PM »

Offline jpd985

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 679
  • Tommy Points: 41
Grant Williams

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2021, 07:24:56 PM »

Offline Rosco917

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6108
  • Tommy Points: 559
the least of the Celtics problems.

Solid role player who got better this year and is cost effective. 

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2021, 07:27:00 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23417
  • Tommy Points: 2523
Tradeable

That's a good thing if he's now a deal enhancement rather than a throw-in.

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2021, 11:18:23 AM »

Offline droopdog7

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6974
  • Tommy Points: 466
a great 2020's role player.  He's smart, can basically switch 1-5 and do okay.  He can stretch the floor and is a better athlete than given credit for.  And, he's been my pet cat even through last year, when he was the favorite whipping boy. 

I'm not surprised that he's playing well at all.
A ''great'' role player is someone like Mikal Bridges, Jae Crowder (3+D) or Joe Harris, Duncan Robinson (off-ball specialists) or Timelord (rim runner). Grant is just useful in a very limited role.
I think Grant is showing he can be a super glue guy.  He's already getting to where Crowder is and while he's not anything like robinson or Harris, Grant also has skills that those two don't.

Perhaps "great" is a bridge too far but he won't/shouldn't be limited for long.  I love the dude and have the whole time.

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2021, 11:46:23 AM »

Offline sgrogan

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 744
  • Tommy Points: 25
A future coach.

Smart, hardworking.
If he can continue to hit the corner 3, he will be in the league for a while.
Regular season rotation, will get squeezed out in the playoffs, but if forced to play, it won't be too big for him.

He could start for a rebuilding team and not hurt the development of younger players.

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2021, 11:54:45 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36887
  • Tommy Points: 2969
Huge divid at CS when it comes to contract extensions

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2021, 11:59:00 AM »

Online Neurotic Guy

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23417
  • Tommy Points: 2523
Happy 23rd Birthday Grant Williams!   

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2021, 12:16:07 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11395
  • Tommy Points: 868
Grant Williams is -22 in plus/minus on the season so essentially -1 per game.  He is a useful bench player.  Nothing wrong with that.

He has played in about 30 different 5 man units on the season.  That seems like a lot.  Probably indicates good versatility which is a good thing for a bench player.

I think too much is expected of him in general.

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2021, 12:22:32 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1243
  • Tommy Points: 164
Defensive leader you can run offense through. Knows the plays and gameplan and the scouting report thoroughly. Communicator on both ends who helps keep the execution organized.

Severely deficient rebounder who nevertheless boxes out. Physical defender with excellent anticipation and a lot of team D skills like bumping the roll man, stopping the ball on the break. Has recovered some of the shotblocking from year 1 (currently 2.6%). Conscious of protecting the paint, but by the same token is weak at long closeouts.

Has a history of being very turnover-prone, though this year he's been stellar so far. On the whole doesn't get out of his lane on offense. As mentioned, religiously executes and helps manage the play with his communication. Mostly avoids dribbling; got free on the right baseline in the last Toronto game but didn't attempt to finish, instead whipping it to the weakside corner - good eye.

Shot just over league-average from 3 last year, but has gotten substantially over the golden threshold of .400 this year (so far). Almost all of them are catch-and-shoot; he's not doing anything fancy. He's been really potent from both corners, but above the right break he's also been excellent, and he's at least been above league-average from up top.

Nothing special from midrange (though we saw a very pretty left baseline 12-footer in Toronto two days ago), but he's been an excellent finisher and has shown some skill close to the basket - in a small sample size. Currently in the 50/40/90 club, but really doesn't get to the line a whole lot - FTr of .196, total of 21 shots on the season.

Bottom line: 3-and-D swing with outstanding team skills on both ends. Upside: rotation player and occasional starter on a contender.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 12:28:14 PM by Hoopvortex »
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2021, 12:55:56 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1243
  • Tommy Points: 164
Grant Williams is -22 in plus/minus on the season so essentially -1 per game.  He is a useful bench player.  Nothing wrong with that.

I would caution us about the usefulness of raw +/- numbers, since they tend to reflect the team's net while a player is on the floor. Consider that the Celtics are about a .500 team so far, and Grant is about a .500 +/- player if you look at the raw stat.

Various people have introduced adjustments for teammates' and opponents' +/- , adding boxscore priors, etc., in order to try to isolate an individual player's net contribution, with some success; but this is an approach that might forever be diminished by small sample sizes. I do not reject it, let me hasten to say; I think that it is always worth consulting and on occasion something strongly indicative comes up.

He has played in about 30 different 5 man units on the season.  That seems like a lot.  Probably indicates good versatility which is a good thing for a bench player.

Good point.

I think too much is expected of him in general.

Going by the comments in this forum about him over the summer, if you'd said this before the season started it would have been surprising; in fact, I would have claimed the opposite. 20 games in, you might be right; but I'd suggest that we're too prone generally to put players on a one-dimensional scale (bad, good, better, goat) that flattens reality, and that we're especially likely to overvalue scoring and shooting.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 01:44:51 PM by Hoopvortex »
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2021, 02:23:44 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11395
  • Tommy Points: 868
Grant Williams is -22 in plus/minus on the season so essentially -1 per game.  He is a useful bench player.  Nothing wrong with that.

I would caution us about the usefulness of raw +/- numbers, since they tend to reflect the team's net while a player is on the floor. Consider that the Celtics are about a .500 team so far, and Grant is about a .500 +/- player if you look at the raw stat.

The Celtics as a team are +1.6 per game, Grant is about -1 per game.  Plus/Minus (nor any other individual stat) is not the end all but is is fairly representative in this case. 

We need Grant.  He is useful.  Not a bad thing.

We have 11 players who have played more than 150 minutes total (call it the core rotation).  Of those 11, Grant is the 3rd worst by plus/minus, Pritchard is -38 and Nesmith is -71.

Smart      +95
RWill        +93
Tatum      +68
Brown      +52
Schroder  +33
JRich       +24

Langford  +4

Horford   -21
GWill      -22
Pritch     -38
Nesmith  -71

The only outlier to me is Horford.  He plays a lot with Grant Williams.  212 minutes with Grant, -32.  305 minutes without Grant, +11.  Looked at the other way, Grant is +10 when not playing with Horford (241 minutes without Horford).  Hmmmm  Maybe I am on to something.  Maybe Grant and Horford should not be playing together.

212 minutes is about 10 minutes per game and we are giving up 3 pts every game in that time.  I admit that plus/minus can be flukey but this is 21 games and a lot of minutes with these two on the court together.


Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2021, 02:30:35 PM »

Offline sgrogan

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 744
  • Tommy Points: 25
Grant Williams is -22 in plus/minus on the season so essentially -1 per game.  He is a useful bench player.  Nothing wrong with that.

I would caution us about the usefulness of raw +/- numbers, since they tend to reflect the team's net while a player is on the floor. Consider that the Celtics are about a .500 team so far, and Grant is about a .500 +/- player if you look at the raw stat.

The Celtics as a team are +1.6 per game, Grant is about -1 per game.  Plus/Minus (nor any other individual stat) is not the end all but is is fairly representative in this case. 

We need Grant.  He is useful.  Not a bad thing.

We have 11 players who have played more than 150 minutes total (call it the core rotation).  Of those 11, Grant is the 3rd worst by plus/minus, Pritchard is -38 and Nesmith is -71.

Smart      +95
RWill        +93
Tatum      +68
Brown      +52
Schroder  +33
JRich       +24

Langford  +4

Horford   -21
GWill      -22
Pritch     -38
Nesmith  -71

The only outlier to me is Horford.  He plays a lot with Grant Williams.  212 minutes with Grant, -32.  305 minutes without Grant, +11.  Looked at the other way, Grant is +10 when not playing with Horford (241 minutes without Horford).  Hmmmm  Maybe I am on to something.  Maybe Grant and Horford should not be playing together.

212 minutes is about 10 minutes per game and we are giving up 3 pts every game in that time.  I admit that plus/minus can be flukey but this is 21 games and a lot of minutes with these two on the court together.

Maybe that's the best we can do? If the bench could consistently improve the score they would play more?
On average we should have the bench plays even. We are a top heavy-ish roster.

Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2021, 03:55:13 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11395
  • Tommy Points: 868
Grant Williams is -22 in plus/minus on the season so essentially -1 per game.  He is a useful bench player.  Nothing wrong with that.

I would caution us about the usefulness of raw +/- numbers, since they tend to reflect the team's net while a player is on the floor. Consider that the Celtics are about a .500 team so far, and Grant is about a .500 +/- player if you look at the raw stat.

The Celtics as a team are +1.6 per game, Grant is about -1 per game.  Plus/Minus (nor any other individual stat) is not the end all but is is fairly representative in this case. 

We need Grant.  He is useful.  Not a bad thing.

We have 11 players who have played more than 150 minutes total (call it the core rotation).  Of those 11, Grant is the 3rd worst by plus/minus, Pritchard is -38 and Nesmith is -71.

Smart      +95
RWill        +93
Tatum      +68
Brown      +52
Schroder  +33
JRich       +24

Langford  +4

Horford   -21
GWill      -22
Pritch     -38
Nesmith  -71

The only outlier to me is Horford.  He plays a lot with Grant Williams.  212 minutes with Grant, -32.  305 minutes without Grant, +11.  Looked at the other way, Grant is +10 when not playing with Horford (241 minutes without Horford).  Hmmmm  Maybe I am on to something.  Maybe Grant and Horford should not be playing together.

212 minutes is about 10 minutes per game and we are giving up 3 pts every game in that time.  I admit that plus/minus can be flukey but this is 21 games and a lot of minutes with these two on the court together.

Maybe that's the best we can do? If the bench could consistently improve the score they would play more?
On average we should have the bench plays even. We are a top heavy-ish roster.

Yes, other than Horford, out top players have extremely good plus/minus and our lower tier player, very bad plus/minus.  This is not entirely unexpected but I would not expect such a large disparity.

The puzzle is Horford.  I was not expecting him to be as "bad" as GWill and the other lower tier player.  So is Horford really not that good?  Is our lack of big depth hurting us when Horford is on the court?


Re: Grant Williams is...
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2021, 07:22:29 PM »

Offline tonydelk

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1849
  • Tommy Points: 468
The play of Grant and Romeo has been a sight for sore eyes.  If Romeo can start hitting those floaters he will be even more useful.  He just doesn't have the touch right now to hit those bunnies.  Romeo can get to where he wants to go and as soon as he can start finishing look out. 

Grant has been a great surprise this year.  This is what we thought he'd look like last year.  The weight definitely didn't help.  He regressed and looked like he was close to being out of the league vs a vital role player.  Grant can start next to Rob and provide spacing.  His shot is confident and the stroke looks super clean. 

Next up Aaron and PP.  Need both of them to develop.  I think Nesmith just needs run to get his rhythm back.  PP just looks like his game got broke with his nose.  His nose has healed and hopefully his game will heal as well.