Author Topic: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst  (Read 5089 times)

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Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2021, 01:29:34 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I got an easier solution. Just start hitting more shots, especially those wide, wide open ones.

😁

Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2021, 02:24:11 PM »

Offline footey

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When I watch the Warriors, it is like night and day in terms of off ball movement.  One of the greatest practitioners of off ball movement is Steph Curry.  It is such an enjoyable brand of basketball. 

Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2021, 02:44:53 PM »

Offline #1P4P

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The ISO basketball is a result of the static system. There’s positives and negatives to that system and the main one for the static is that the ball handler knows where his teammates are and rogue defenders can’t just blitz driving and passing lanes. Tatum and Brown just haven’t been able to take advantage of the strengths of the system.

Horford and Smart (the version we’ve seen lately) are good connectors/table setters. We should be leaning heavily on Al running point at the top of the key in late possessions.

Tatum has been a turnover machine in late possessions when doing anything other than a sidestep 3. The ball pressure and spacing in late game situations makes getting into the paint very difficult, the only player that I’ve seen do it at a high level is Lebron.

Tatum and Brown can take a page out of Kawhi’s book, they have to establish 2 spots that they can get to in 3 dribbles or less and get a high efficiency shot. Schroder is the most reliable late possession player because even though he’s turnover prone, he can consistently get to his spot and get a good shot. Randomly dribbling the ball until an opportunity opens or the shot clock is single digits is not a good strategy.

Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2021, 03:18:04 PM »

Offline showtime

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Changes needed, IMO..

1) change the starting rotation to: Schroder, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford. This is clearly the best offensive unit. Let Timelord play his 25 minutes Off the bench so that he doesn’t break down. 2 big lineup is not effective against 90% of teams anyway.

2)Stop shooting so many 3’s. Most of the players on this team cannot make them consistently and the players with the highest 3pt shooting percentages (Romeo and Grant) are getting very few attempts which doesn’t help. Team had almost 50 shots from behind the arc last game which is completely ridiculous.

3) Shorten the rotation. Starters: Schroder, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford. Bench: Timelord, Richardson, Langford, Grant, Kanter, Parker. Send Pritchard, Nesmith, Fernando down to the G-League so that they can develop. All 3 are clearly not ready to contribute.

4) Do a better job staggering minutes. There shouldn’t be points of any close game where one of Tatum or Brown are not on the court. Ideally we’d have a combination of 2 of the following on the court at all times: Horford, Brown, Tatum. Considering Horford can play the 4/5, Brown can play the 2/3 and Tatum can play the 3/4 this should be very doable.

5) Make sure there are 3 shooter on the court at all times. Some of the lineups Ime puts out there have 1 shooter on the floor and the offense struggles. Shocking, I know... Tatum, Brown, Horford, Grant, And Romeo are the players that can spread the floor for the C’s.

This a poor coaching , planning , drafting .   Nothing is being managed correctly……if your going to win or die from three , then go after those guys and build around them .  This team is all over the place with no direction from top down .   It’s an awful look for the Celtics to be lost as a team so poorly
I think you've just hit the nail on the head!

Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2021, 03:31:43 PM »

Offline gouki88

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The fast break stuff absolutely kills me. It has never made sense to me.

It's also why I love Pritchard. As soon as he gets the ball he is quickly moving it up-court before the defence can settle. Maybe the coach doesn't like that.
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Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2021, 03:37:05 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I got an easier solution. Just start hitting more shots, especially those wide, wide open ones.

😁
This was the biggest thing with the Marcus comments, complaining about getting the ball to other guys. The team is terrible at shooting. I saw Tatum numerous games setting up others early and then getting blamed for a slow start himself. If guys were hitting shots at just an avg clip Tatum would avg 8 ast.

Team had some cup cakes but the Nets blew the team out. C's should still not get discouraged. Keep defending and move the ball. Beat the teams you have to beat. Rely on injury luck for the rest as we know injuries will happen.

Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2021, 03:44:33 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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So kinda of like what everyone has been saying for two years...

The questions are, who's to blame? And how to change it.
For me it's Brad. The system is still BS and the players still want to act as if they are under BS. BS right now is the problem. He should never have been put into the GM role and either let go or the new GM given BS better direction. So in the end BS and Ownership but more BS.

Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2021, 03:48:49 PM »

Offline footey

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So kinda of like what everyone has been saying for two years...

The questions are, who's to blame? And how to change it.
For me it's Brad. The system is still BS and the players still want to act as if they are under BS. BS right now is the problem. He should never have been put into the GM roll and either let go or the new GM given BS better direction. So in the end BS and Ownership but more BS.

Funny, that is the OPPOSITE conclusion reached by the video scout expert interviewed by Jay King in the Athletic articles.  He said that Brad's system was very ball movement oriented, but that over the years the players got away from it.  I think what you may mean is that Brad failed to enforce his system over the last couple of years.  Ime seems intent on fixing it, so I am going to ride with him until he does or gives up trying....

Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2021, 03:54:10 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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The fast break stuff absolutely kills me. It has never made sense to me.

It's also why I love Pritchard. As soon as he gets the ball he is quickly moving it up-court before the defence can settle. Maybe the coach doesn't like that.

That’s the way I was coached a million years ago.  you probe the defense as guard , get your teammates moving , I would run over my teammates if they stood still .   Schroder does this some , but people stand around watching ….SMH …..what the devil are they waiting for ….the object to to get yourself open .   

Bird would have knocked half these guys out with the ball standing around watching.

There are some 8 th grade basics that these guys lack . …..yet they act like ….it not me …..it the other fellow .

S ooooooooooooooooOoooo…….if you can’t shoot 3’s under pressure …..then you need to keep moving and lose your man. …see Curry or Allen video …..get yourself to a place YOU can get a shot off you CAN make.   Wear the other team out trying to defend you ……just chucking a flat footed three you can barely make in practice is not going to cut it .  This plays right into a team of Nets .  Passing the ball wears the out the defense trying to keep you .

coaches need to make these guys watch film together and call out slackers and sleepers.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 04:07:05 PM by SHAQATTACK »

Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2021, 04:23:50 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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So kinda of like what everyone has been saying for two years...

The questions are, who's to blame? And how to change it.
For me it's Brad. The system is still BS and the players still want to act as if they are under BS. BS right now is the problem. He should never have been put into the GM roll and either let go or the new GM given BS better direction. So in the end BS and Ownership but more BS.

Funny, that is the OPPOSITE conclusion reached by the video scout expert interviewed by Jay King in the Athletic articles.  He said that Brad's system was very ball movement oriented, but that over the years the players got away from it.  I think what you may mean is that Brad failed to enforce his system over the last couple of years.  Ime seems intent on fixing it, so I am going to ride with him until he does or gives up trying....
But he says right at the beginning nothing is different under Ime. This is still the BS pace and space.

Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2021, 04:26:13 PM »

Online hwangjini_1

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just to add this to the converstation, among all nba teams in terms of 3 point shots taken per game, the celtics rank is at #12. they attempt 36.8 shots a game and last year they were at 36.5 a game.

11 other teams shoot more 3 pointers than the celtics so it is not as if this team has gone crazy. the are in the middle of the pack in terms of number of 3 pointers taken.

In terms of 3 pointers made, the celtics sit at #13 in the nba.

Perhaps this isn't as big a problem as some posters here may think.


https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/three-pointers-attempted-per-game
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Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2021, 04:37:25 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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just to add this to the converstation, among all nba teams in terms of 3 point shots taken per game, the celtics rank is at #12. they attempt 36.8 shots a game and last year they were at 36.5 a game.

11 other teams shoot more 3 pointers than the celtics so it is not as if this team has gone crazy. the are in the middle of the pack in terms of number of 3 pointers taken.

In terms of 3 pointers made, the celtics sit at #13 in the nba.

Perhaps this isn't as big a problem as some posters here may think.


https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/three-pointers-attempted-per-game
I think the difference is + points. This is an addition term. Like three point plays, foul shots and threes vs conventional twos. You have to avg top 10 in plus points per shot taken or the offense isn't championship caliber. Currently C's miss too often and don't get foul shots at the top level.

Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2021, 04:38:42 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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I got an easier solution. Just start hitting more shots, especially those wide, wide open ones.

😁

Agree with Nick, they are cold right now. the clean shots are there, they are missing them...in bunches.

Kemba "didn't run the floor."

Smart sort of runs the floor when he's the de facto PG, but, he ain't no Bob Cousy.

Schroder does some set ups on offense, but, most of his action is for himself.

Perhaps, while they are cold, we could hire a pass first PG?

I remember the Red Sox about 20 years ago having a ritual where they burned some bats and danced around...they were hitting .234 or something awful.

Grant + Romeo are about 42% from three...I guess everyone needs to pass them the ball...huh?

3PT%
Nets 37.7% (1st in NBA)
Celtics 32.2% (25th in NBA) -- last year 36.8% (10th in NBA)

Last year Brown and Tatum combined were 39% from three.
Schroder, Horford and Smart combined might be 31% from three right now.

It's not like they can't do it all of a sudden....maybe they should keep changing their hair around....get the right combo.




Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2021, 07:16:23 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Part 2 has been added. Nick's point of "make more shots" is (kind of) addressed by Dakhil - one of the things he says is because they don't have players who can create easy shots for others, they are reliant on make/miss. So the occasions they make the shots they look great but when they don't they look terrible.

Some more points for those that don't want to read the whole thing (though I recommend you do, it's pretty thought provoking):

  • Cs take too long to do things on average - they don't make quick decisions, don't push the pace
  • Tatum (and Brown) scoring hides the issues - that they were really just creating for themselves and are good at it
  • If Smart is the main playmaker the offense will be in trouble - he's more of a secondary playmaker. They need a Hayward type "connector" to keep things flowing and the system right
  • Try more sets where the offense starts in the hands of someone other than Brown or Tatum, to force them to cut, screen and move rather than create their own shots
  • Celtics need to find a "connector" that gets players in the right spots (e.g. Lonzo, Rubio) unfortunately there's not many of them in the league

Quote
The Celtics offense has improved lately, but it still stands out as the team’s weak link after one month of the regular season.

To break down what needs to change, we brought former Spurs and Clippers video coordinator Mo Dakhil onto the “Anything is Poddable” podcast earlier this week. In the first part of the conversation, which you can read here, he broke down some of Jayson Tatum’s weaknesses and Boston’s need for more player movement. In the second part of the conversation, which follows below, Dakhil expands on his belief that the Celtics need another “connector” on their roster. Here is our discussion. It has been edited for length, clarity and grammar.

King: Last year, the Celtics were pretty good in transition. It depends where you go for the stats, but I think Cleaning the Glass had them at 10th in transition and Synergy (Sports) had them in second. Either way, that’s either great or pretty good. And then this year, it has just plummeted. It makes no sense to me, because Ime Udoka, from Day 1, stressed that they wanted to play faster, they wanted to play with pace. And it just, for whatever reason, has not come to fruition.

Dakhil: Right. And I don’t want this to be (like) all their offensive problems on Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown, largely. You just see situations where Marcus Smart will get the ball swung to him, and he’ll stop to look. That stop to look, instead of the automatic pass to the next guy, just lets the defense catch up in the rotations, and everything like that. The transition thing is an issue with all the guys. Not looking to run. Not looking to get out and push the pace with everything. So it’s not just a Tatum thing. It’s just more glaring because the problem with their offense is people will look at it as, Tatum’s had 30-point games the last four games — like, “Oh, the offense is fine. I don’t know why you guys are doing this podcast.” No, it’s just, when he’s scoring, it hides the issue: that the offense, really, it was still him creating everything for himself and not really for others, or nobody else really getting those opportunities. It just hides the issues, and you become so dependent on him having those nights. And when Brown comes back and is rolling and back in full form, same thing. Then you’re just depending on those two guys, and come playoff time that’s easy to defend.

King: Is that something they can change? Is that something this roster is equipped to change? I look at the roster; I think, Marcus Smart’s a playmaker. You can run offense through Marcus Smart. I actually wonder why they haven’t staggered Smart and Tatum more because I think Dennis Schröder is not a natural point guard; he’s out for his own offense, which is fine. He’s good at it, but I just feel like they’re a lot more structured when Smart has the ball in his hands and is good going through sets and creating for guys, and they have multiple playmakers. So is there anything that they can do? Or that you would do if you were Udoka, whether it’s rotations, whatever else, to try to get out of that stagnation?

Dakhil: Yeah, I don’t agree with you, necessarily, in that Smart’s a playmaker in that sense. I just think if he’s your playmaker, your offense is going to be in trouble. And the Celtics offense is in trouble.

King: To his defense, (they have a better offensive rating with him on the court than with anyone else). He has the most assists on the team, second year running. And even without Tatum, I think, their offense has been pretty good with him on the court, which is rare because their offense has plummeted at other times without Tatum.

Dakhil: Yeah, and I’m not saying he can’t do it. I just don’t think that should be your primary guy. His best role is as a secondary playmaker, as the guy that helps clean things up a bit. They don’t have a guy that just helps to keep the offense flowing and keep the system right. And I think they haven’t had that guy since Gordon Hayward. I think that was a very underrated thing Gordon Hayward did. It was just, keep it flowing. His numbers may not have popped out; it may not have even been assist numbers or whatnot, but just keep it flowing. Everything’s going in that sense, quick passes, whatever it was, quick decisions. He kept it flowing. Here, you see it stopping a lot, and I think that’s the issue. So what I would do if I’m looking at it (as) Udoka, I think, play Al Horford a little bit as the center and play him in the high post and run some stuff in there through him. Not just elbow game. You could run Princeton sets with him at the high post and go from there. Him being a good enough passer, he can do it. And with his shot, if teams back off of him, he can just, boom, hit the free-throw jumper, right there. The top of the key for 3, all of those things. He has that range. I think that area, I would look at.

Other things too. I would try to stay away from times where you have Marcus Smart and Josh Richardson on the court at the same time. Maybe pair Smart with Aaron Nesmith a little bit. So Nesmith can get some catch-and-shoot opportunities in those instances. So he can be that release valve in that instance. Even though Richardson’s going to bring the defense with Smart, not going to bring a lot of shooting. You’re hoping Nesmith is going to be your best shooter or at least one of your best shooters. I know it hasn’t really borne out that much this year, and he’s struggled badly from it, but we know he can shoot. He’s just in a bad run. I think you just have to start putting him in those positions where he’s going to get easier looks at 3s and things like that. And I think you can get that by tweaking the rotations here and there, and how you pair guys and stuff like that.

I would start trying to put in some sets where you have the ball in different guys’ hands and force Tatum and force Brown to have to move, screen and cut. Because once you start doing that, it’ll open things up for everybody else, and it’ll open it up for them too. It’ll open up back door cuts. Those guys are smart players. They’re going to know when the defense is overplaying them, and they’ll cut backdoor, and guys like Horford, guys like Smart will find them with those passes.

King: So, obviously, they’ve changed their roster around those guys quite a bit over the last few years. They always had, before this season, a high-usage point guard. First, it was Isaiah Thomas then it was Kyrie Irving — although Tatum didn’t play with Isaiah Thomas, I’m pretty sure. Then it was Kyrie. Then it was Kemba Walker. So do you think Tatum and Brown can be the centers of an offense, and these are just the struggles of them figuring out how to do that? Or is it the case where this vision this Celtics front office had this year with Marcus Smart at point guard (won’t work)? Do they need somebody else next to them, or could they one day be capable enough to get this team where they want?

Dakhil: No. I think they need somebody next to them. And it’s the same problem, oddly enough, the Clippers have with Kawhi Leonard and Paul George.

King: That comparison works.

Dakhil: Right. And you see the struggles with it when the two of them are on the court. And listen, the “my turn, your turn” thing is a problem we see across the NBA a lot of times with guys. But that’s where, I think, you need to have a dude who is what I call a connector. A guy who’s trying to just keep things flowing in that sense. Almost like the guy to get them in the right spots. I’m still shocked they didn’t find a way to get Lonzo Ball last season at the trade deadline even if it would’ve cost a Marcus Smart. I’m just throwing out names; I don’t know if there was ever anything to that. But that would’ve been a perfect fit for them, right, with Lonzo, because you’re seeing what he is doing in Chicago, right?

Chicago’s making it work with Zach LaVine and DeMar DeRozan right now. They’re finding the guys who are connectors. Lonzo, Alex Caruso, those guys are making it easier for those two guys to get themselves going. They don’t have anybody on the Celtics roster for that, even a guy like (Ricky) Rubio, who we’re seeing do a great job of that in Cleveland. I think, just, those types of guys are who I would target if I were the Celtics, because I think that guy would be the piece that would make this whole thing go. Then you’d start to see the offense really take off to another level. The unfortunate thing for the league is, there’s not a lot of those guys. Those guys are hard to find, and I think that’s the thing that the Celtics need to try to find.

I think that’s the important piece that they’re missing, because right now, everybody they have, for the most part, who scores for the Celtics, are one-on-one talents. They never get easy looks, whether in transition or even in the halfcourt. Everything’s hard for them. Some nights, everything’s going to go in, and they’re going to look amazing, and we’re all going to be like, “Wow, the Celtics’ offense is awesome.” Then you’re going to have nights and you’re going to have a run of games where you’re like, “These dudes can’t hit a shot, and it all looks bad.”

https://theathletic.com/2976196/2021/11/25/celtics-need-additional-connector-to-help-bolster-offense-xs-and-os-look-with-an-nba-analyst-part-2/
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: How can Celtics improve their offense: Xs and Os with an NBA analyst
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2021, 08:08:13 PM »

Offline ozgod

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I feel like this guy is being a little bit too negative...but given his Spurs background it must hurt to watch when our team doesn't move the ball. There are times when we move the ball well and generate good looks but they are more the exception than the rule.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D