LeBron finally done?

[Moranis]

I think Moranis has more of a point than you are allowing here.

I disagree. He's intentionally misusing the term "superteam" to try and define it as something else. Using examples of players forcing their way out of teams as comparable to LeBron's collusion with Wade and Bosh, or Durant's collusion with Irving, or whatever modern superteam, is fallacious to me.

The modern understanding of the term is based upon player-to-player recruitment and communication behind the backs of the team. This is not seen through his examples

How is this not the same thing McGrady, Hill, and Duncan did?  Is it because TD backed out at the last minute?  Or maybe you just don't like the fact that Lebron, Bosh, and Wade were friends and talked about it sooner than the other guys.  The simple reality is, Hill, McGrady, and Duncan talked about doing, and 2 of them did, the exact same thing that the Heat trio did.  There is fundamentally 0 difference.

Moses Malone did the exact same thing Kevin Durant did when Malone joined the Sixers and Durant the Warriors.

As I've said, free agency is a newer development, but you can still find examples of the exact same conduct littered throughout league history.  Player empowerment is not a new development.  It has always been there, but without cell phones and the internet it is more difficult.

[Moranis]

double post.

[Moranis]

If in 2-3 years someone like Doncic or Giannis wants to force his way to Boston to form a superteam with the Jays, count me in.

Sure but you know that if stars force their way anywhere to create a superteam they're not going to Boston to do it. 

If Tatum and Giannis decide they want to play together, for example, they'll find some warm weather / big market city with a team ready to clear space for them that summer, and they'll jointly force their way to that team.

Whether it's likely to happen in Boston or not is irrelevant to me. I am simply saying if it did happen in Boston I wouldn't get all crazy about how it happened. The important thing to me is that the team got better, not how the team was constructed to get better.

The point is that it's not an option that is realistically open to the Bostons of the world, let alone the Sacramentos, the Utahs, the Minnesotas, etc.

That's what bothers me so much about it.

I have no idea why you think Boston couldn't do that.  I mean Boston was close to landing Durant and Horford in the same summer (the top and perhaps 2nd best free agent available).  Obviously Durant went to Golden State instead, but it isn't like Boston didn't have a real shot at it.  Boston then signed another top 5 free agent the following summer and 2 summers after that yet another top 5 free agent.  The Magic have done it.  I know it is nice weather, but it certainly isn't a big market.  And teams like the Knicks and Mavericks have continually failed to attract free agents despite having 2 max slots available. 

When the money is the same, most players at the end of the day want to win and will find the best place available to them for that to happen. 

[86MaxwellSmart]

Every time (not many) The C's have had cap space, they've signed a top Free Agent---all the years prior, they didn't have the room to do so....so to say The C's are not a FA destination is completely false.

[celticsclay]

I think Moranis has more of a point than you are allowing here.

I disagree. He's intentionally misusing the term "superteam" to try and define it as something else. Using examples of players forcing their way out of teams as comparable to LeBron's collusion with Wade and Bosh, or Durant's collusion with Irving, or whatever modern superteam, is fallacious to me.

The modern understanding of the term is based upon player-to-player recruitment and communication behind the backs of the team. This is not seen through his examples

How is this not the same thing McGrady, Hill, and Duncan did?  Is it because TD backed out at the last minute?  Or maybe you just don't like the fact that Lebron, Bosh, and Wade were friends and talked about it sooner than the other guys.  The simple reality is, Hill, McGrady, and Duncan talked about doing, and 2 of them did, the exact same thing that the Heat trio did.  There is fundamentally 0 difference.

Moses Malone did the exact same thing Kevin Durant did when Malone joined the Sixers and Durant the Warriors.

As I've said, free agency is a newer development, but you can still find examples of the exact same conduct littered throughout league history.  Player empowerment is not a new development.  It has always been there, but without cell phones and the internet it is more difficult.

Talked about does not equal it happening. I literally said it was unprecedented (this means it had not happened before). How is you sharing a time it could have happened even an argument to that? Again incredibly strange. If I said nobody made it to the moon before the US and you responded “yeah well Japan talked about it” you would be acting equally weird.

[gouki88]

I think Moranis has more of a point than you are allowing here.

I disagree. He's intentionally misusing the term "superteam" to try and define it as something else. Using examples of players forcing their way out of teams as comparable to LeBron's collusion with Wade and Bosh, or Durant's collusion with Irving, or whatever modern superteam, is fallacious to me.

The modern understanding of the term is based upon player-to-player recruitment and communication behind the backs of the team. This is not seen through his examples

How is this not the same thing McGrady, Hill, and Duncan did?  Is it because TD backed out at the last minute?  Or maybe you just don't like the fact that Lebron, Bosh, and Wade were friends and talked about it sooner than the other guys.  The simple reality is, Hill, McGrady, and Duncan talked about doing, and 2 of them did, the exact same thing that the Heat trio did.  There is fundamentally 0 difference.

Moses Malone did the exact same thing Kevin Durant did when Malone joined the Sixers and Durant the Warriors.

As I've said, free agency is a newer development, but you can still find examples of the exact same conduct littered throughout league history.  Player empowerment is not a new development.  It has always been there, but without cell phones and the internet it is more difficult.

Talked about does not equal it happening. I literally said it was unprecedented (this means it had not happened before). How is you sharing a time it could have happened even an argument to that? Again incredibly strange. If I said nobody made it to the moon before the US and you responded “yeah well Japan talked about it” you would be acting equally weird.

Ridiculous that the difference between something happening and something being talked about but not eventuating has to explained.

[Muzzy66]

He's a great player, and I think he seems like a really good person as well

I beg to differ based on:

- The fact that he made threatening tweets against a police officer who saved a young black girl's life and made no apologies about it
- The fact that he attacked Daryl Morey (and defended China) when Morey spoke out against China's treatment of people in Hong Kong
- The fact that he seems to have had no issues throwing teammates under the bus when he wasn't happy (e.g. Kevin Love in Cleveland)

I don't think Lebron is a "really good person" at all.  I think he's an arrogant, egotistical person with a major god complex.

Now do research on the good things Lebron has done for marginalized communities. If he isn't a good person, no one is.

Doing a number of good things for the community doesn't make you a "really good person" if you also do a bunch of pretty horrible things as well to offset that.

Lebron is well aware of how sensitive the subject of Police brutality is right now and how volatile the situation is politically.  He's well aware that there are countless people out who are just begging for an excuse to commit acts of hate and/or violence against Police Officers.  For him to post a tweet that could so easily be interpreted as a call to violence (and was at the very least a call for prosecution) against a Police officer, without waiting to see any evidence at all, is extremely irresponsible.

The fact that Lebron never apologised for his tweet (even after the video evidence was released showing he was wrong / the cop was innocent) changes it to 'sinister and downright despicable'.  He clearly has no problem with the idea that his tweet could generate hate towards police and threats/violence towards an objectively innocent man.  He absolutely should have been fined by the NBA for this but gets nothing because in the eyes of the NBA he's untouchable. 

Furthermore the fact that he has constantly speaks out about oppression, and yet has absolutely no issue care in the world about Hong Kong civilians being oppressed by a tyrannical Chinese government, shows that he is nowhere near as sincere and empathetic a person as he'd like people to believe. 

To not care about this and simply turn the blind eye would suggest he is selfishness, cowardly, or lacking in empathy.  But Lebron didn't just turn the blind eye.  He went out of his way to actually SUPPORT the oppressive regime by using his influence to try and discredit someone who actually DID stand up and say something.  And we all know why Lebron did that - because China is the biggest NBA market, and happy China means more money for the NBA, which means more money for Lebron.  Prioritising money over human rights - unethical and truly despicable.

Just a couple of examples that demonstrate just what type of person Lebron actually is.  He may try to put on his "Knight in shining armour" fascade for the sake of public popularity, but underneath it all he's...well, lets just say he's not a good person.

[Kernewek]

I think Moranis has more of a point than you are allowing here.

I disagree. He's intentionally misusing the term "superteam" to try and define it as something else. Using examples of players forcing their way out of teams as comparable to LeBron's collusion with Wade and Bosh, or Durant's collusion with Irving, or whatever modern superteam, is fallacious to me.

The modern understanding of the term is based upon player-to-player recruitment and communication behind the backs of the team. This is not seen through his examples

Possibly. What it reads like to me (I have no horse in this race) is that a handful of posters are mostly talking past each other by adjusting the focus of your definitions based on how you feel about LeBron James 


There are things about all of these examples that are unique, but there are also things about these examples that fit into long-established patterns. This doesn't feel particularly controversial to me.
-------

To change the discussion slightly: is it good that 10 of the last 20 Finals MVPs signed with the championship team in free agency? I'm not sure.

The splits are as follows:
10 Free Agents
9 Players drafted by the franchise.
1 Traded Player (Leonard with Toronto)

If you go further back it's much more weighted towards players drafted by the franchise (notable exceptions are Shaq on the Lakers, Chauncey Billups, and Moses Malone). So that is different, and something perhaps worth discussing.

[Moranis]

I think Moranis has more of a point than you are allowing here.

I disagree. He's intentionally misusing the term "superteam" to try and define it as something else. Using examples of players forcing their way out of teams as comparable to LeBron's collusion with Wade and Bosh, or Durant's collusion with Irving, or whatever modern superteam, is fallacious to me.

The modern understanding of the term is based upon player-to-player recruitment and communication behind the backs of the team. This is not seen through his examples

How is this not the same thing McGrady, Hill, and Duncan did?  Is it because TD backed out at the last minute?  Or maybe you just don't like the fact that Lebron, Bosh, and Wade were friends and talked about it sooner than the other guys.  The simple reality is, Hill, McGrady, and Duncan talked about doing, and 2 of them did, the exact same thing that the Heat trio did.  There is fundamentally 0 difference.

Moses Malone did the exact same thing Kevin Durant did when Malone joined the Sixers and Durant the Warriors.

As I've said, free agency is a newer development, but you can still find examples of the exact same conduct littered throughout league history.  Player empowerment is not a new development.  It has always been there, but without cell phones and the internet it is more difficult.

Talked about does not equal it happening. I literally said it was unprecedented (this means it had not happened before). How is you sharing a time it could have happened even an argument to that? Again incredibly strange. If I said nobody made it to the moon before the US and you responded “yeah well Japan talked about it” you would be acting equally weird.

Ridiculous that the difference between something happening and something being talked about but not eventuating has to explained.

Your contention (which is bolded) was that player to player recruitment has never happened before.  That just isn't true.  Even taking Duncan out of it, McGrady and Hill did that exact same thing. And if you think Moses and Dr. J didn't talk then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

[Moranis]

He's a great player, and I think he seems like a really good person as well

I beg to differ based on:

- The fact that he made threatening tweets against a police officer who saved a young black girl's life and made no apologies about it
- The fact that he attacked Daryl Morey (and defended China) when Morey spoke out against China's treatment of people in Hong Kong
- The fact that he seems to have had no issues throwing teammates under the bus when he wasn't happy (e.g. Kevin Love in Cleveland)

I don't think Lebron is a "really good person" at all.  I think he's an arrogant, egotistical person with a major god complex.

Now do research on the good things Lebron has done for marginalized communities. If he isn't a good person, no one is.

Doing a number of good things for the community doesn't make you a "really good person" if you also do a bunch of pretty horrible things as well to offset that.

Lebron is well aware of how sensitive the subject of Police brutality is right now and how volatile the situation is politically.  He's well aware that there are countless people out who are just begging for an excuse to commit acts of hate and/or violence against Police Officers.  For him to post a tweet that could so easily be interpreted as a call to violence (and was at the very least a call for prosecution) against a Police officer, without waiting to see any evidence at all, is extremely irresponsible.

The fact that Lebron never apologised for his tweet (even after the video evidence was released showing he was wrong / the cop was innocent) changes it to 'sinister and downright despicable'.  He clearly has no problem with the idea that his tweet could generate hate towards police and threats/violence towards an objectively innocent man.  He absolutely should have been fined by the NBA for this but gets nothing because in the eyes of the NBA he's untouchable. 

Furthermore the fact that he has constantly speaks out about oppression, and yet has absolutely no issue care in the world about Hong Kong civilians being oppressed by a tyrannical Chinese government, shows that he is nowhere near as sincere and empathetic a person as he'd like people to believe. 

To not care about this and simply turn the blind eye would suggest he is selfishness, cowardly, or lacking in empathy.  But Lebron didn't just turn the blind eye.  He went out of his way to actually SUPPORT the oppressive regime by using his influence to try and discredit someone who actually DID stand up and say something.  And we all know why Lebron did that - because China is the biggest NBA market, and happy China means more money for the NBA, which means more money for Lebron.  Prioritising money over human rights - unethical and truly despicable.

Just a couple of examples that demonstrate just what type of person Lebron actually is.  He may try to put on his "Knight in shining armour" fascade for the sake of public popularity, but underneath it all he's...well, lets just say he's not a good person.

Lebron apologized on May 3rd saying he was fueling the wrong conversation.  And he almost immediately deleted the tweet because he realized he was wrong.

[Lakers are the Best]

I don't think LeBron is done. Prior to the injury, he was considered perhaps the MVP favorite. Many thought he was done following his groin injury, but it healed, and he won another title.