Can We Be Done With This Big Starting Lineup?

[Vermont Green]

The only team that starts two bigs is the Lakers (Davis and Gasol) but Gasol only plays 18 mpg and Davis is one of the best, most versatile defenders in the NBA.

That statement is simply not true.  For example, Toronto starts Baynes and Siakam.  Atlanta (Collins-Capela), Denver, (Jokic-Millsap) Indiana (Turner-Sabonis), Milwaukee (Giannis-Lopez), and there are many more.  I looked into 5-man units for last season and the vast majority of teams play with 2 bigs as their most used line up and an even higher percentage of the better teams.  Teams play at times with 1 big also, there is nothing wrong with that.

The problem with the Celtics is that we can't play a 2-big line up due to our roster.  It is a problem.  We would be a better, more competitive team if we had a decent PF to play.  We don't have the option to really choose because our 2-big options are so poor.

Right now, with Hayward gone and Walker injured, we don't really have a great alternative option either.  That is why Theis is playing PF.

[hpantazo]

I'm still confused as to why Stevens doesn't start Tatum at the 4. He's an ideal stretch 4 in this era, who is also great on the block with his up and under moves and mid-range step back jumper. I think Tatum is at his best when he receives the ball within the 12-18 ft range and gets to work instead of receiving it behind the 3pt line. He's also capable of defending pretty much most NBA starting 4's.

Is the concern due to going smaller in the backcourt? Smart can defend pretty much anyone, and adding a true point guard to run the offense like Teague or Pritchard (ideally Kemba when he returns) does wonders for our offense.

It's like we're trying to force guys like Theis into filling a position for no good reason.


I think the starters should be:

Teague (Kemba when he returns)
Smart
Brown
Tatum
Thompson

[PAOBoston]

I'm still confused as to why Stevens doesn't start Tatum at the 4. He's an ideal stretch 4 in this era, who is also great on the block with his up and under moves and mid-range step back jumper. I think Tatum is at his best when he receives the ball within the 12-18 ft range and gets to work instead of receiving it behind the 3pt line. He's also capable of defending pretty much most NBA starting 4's.

Is the concern due to going smaller in the backcourt? Smart can defend pretty much anyone, and adding a true point guard to run the offense like Teague or Pritchard (ideally Kemba when he returns) does wonders for our offense.

It's like we're trying to force guys like Theis into filling a position for no good reason.


I think the starters should be:

Teague (Kemba when he returns)
Smart
Brown
Tatum
Thompson

It is because there are literally no viable options off the bench if Teague starts. It’s a bunch of rookies and second year players who are not very good.

[hpantazo]

I'm still confused as to why Stevens doesn't start Tatum at the 4. He's an ideal stretch 4 in this era, who is also great on the block with his up and under moves and mid-range step back jumper. I think Tatum is at his best when he receives the ball within the 12-18 ft range and gets to work instead of receiving it behind the 3pt line. He's also capable of defending pretty much most NBA starting 4's.

Is the concern due to going smaller in the backcourt? Smart can defend pretty much anyone, and adding a true point guard to run the offense like Teague or Pritchard (ideally Kemba when he returns) does wonders for our offense.

It's like we're trying to force guys like Theis into filling a position for no good reason.


I think the starters should be:

Teague (Kemba when he returns)
Smart
Brown
Tatum
Thompson

It is because there are literally no viable options off the bench if Teague starts. It’s a bunch of rookies and second year players who are not very good.

I think Pritchard has proven himself by now as a viable option off the bench, and Stevens certainly plays him enough to believe he also considers him as such. Keep one of Tatum/Brown in at all times as we do already, Theis or Rob Williams are great backup centers, and Grant Williams/Semi are serviceable off the bench. We will get a boost when Langford is back too. Nesmith has a long way to go. When Kemba is back, we have both Teague and Pritchard off the bench, plus Langford by then, we'll be in very good shape.

[OhioGreen]

Think it should be  Pritchard
                            Brown
                            Tatum
                            Thompson
                             R Williams   

starting, and          Smart
                             Teague
                             Theis

off the bench.  Too much youth/ subpar players replacing starters almost all at once right now!

[footey]

Think it should be  Pritchard
                            Brown
                            Tatum
                            Thompson
                             R Williams   

starting, and          Smart
                             Teague
                             Theis

off the bench.  Too much youth/ subpar players replacing starters almost all at once right now!

I don’t think Thompson and Rob can play on floor together never mind start.

[A Future of Stevens]

I'm still confused as to why Stevens doesn't start Tatum at the 4. He's an ideal stretch 4 in this era, who is also great on the block with his up and under moves and mid-range step back jumper. I think Tatum is at his best when he receives the ball within the 12-18 ft range and gets to work instead of receiving it behind the 3pt line. He's also capable of defending pretty much most NBA starting 4's.

Is the concern due to going smaller in the backcourt? Smart can defend pretty much anyone, and adding a true point guard to run the offense like Teague or Pritchard (ideally Kemba when he returns) does wonders for our offense.

It's like we're trying to force guys like Theis into filling a position for no good reason.


I think the starters should be:

Teague (Kemba when he returns)
Smart
Brown
Tatum
Thompson

I feel like a huge part of our lineup versatility is Brown being able to play 2/3 (shades of 4, but not full time) and Tatum essentially being a 3/4 with the abilities of a 2.

I agree that the 2 big lineup isn't working. For this year in particular Tatum should be the other big starting. His 6'9 frame means we don't give up much size in that scenario either.

We should be focused on finding a long term stretch 4 or 3 and D wing and have our lineup go from there. When Kemba comes back it will be Kemba/Smart/Brown/Tatum/5.

[hpantazo]

I'm still confused as to why Stevens doesn't start Tatum at the 4. He's an ideal stretch 4 in this era, who is also great on the block with his up and under moves and mid-range step back jumper. I think Tatum is at his best when he receives the ball within the 12-18 ft range and gets to work instead of receiving it behind the 3pt line. He's also capable of defending pretty much most NBA starting 4's.

Is the concern due to going smaller in the backcourt? Smart can defend pretty much anyone, and adding a true point guard to run the offense like Teague or Pritchard (ideally Kemba when he returns) does wonders for our offense.

It's like we're trying to force guys like Theis into filling a position for no good reason.


I think the starters should be:

Teague (Kemba when he returns)
Smart
Brown
Tatum
Thompson

I feel like a huge part of our lineup versatility is Brown being able to play 2/3 (shades of 4, but not full time) and Tatum essentially being a 3/4 with the abilities of a 2.

I agree that the 2 big lineup isn't working. For this year in particular Tatum should be the other big starting. His 6'9 frame means we don't give up much size in that scenario either.

We should be focused on finding a long term stretch 4 or 3 and D wing and have our lineup go from there. When Kemba comes back it will be Kemba/Smart/Brown/Tatum/5.

I agree. I'd add that Smart being able to guard all 5 positions and play either guard spot or even the 3 is also part of our versatility. The TPE though should be used on a stretch 4 or a 3 and D wing as you say. Hopefully Langford can fulfill the 3 D wing role though and add some ability to penetrate and create his own shot to that role too.

[RodyTur10]

Why did we give up on tatum at the 4?

I reckon this change is more a result of the complete lack of depth at SG - SF - PF than a desire to play Tatum at SF next two old fashioned big men.

The team just does not have enough quality depth at the wing / swing positions for CBS to feel comfortable with Tatum at PF. I think CBS should get over it and just play Nesmith even if Nesmith is not completely ready for the minutes. 

Regardless, I reckon it is only a matter of time until we see Tatum back at PF and small ball back in our midst. It would be nice if Ainge could help CBS out and get him the team some wing depth. Make his life a bit easier. Use that TPE or trade one of those bigs.

I think most people are missing the point.  We played last year with a one big unit not because we wanted to play small ball but because our big depth was so bad.  It came down to having Hayward on the court with Tatum playing out of position or having Enes Kanter or Rob Williams play.  The difference in talent (or more specifically, the lack of any big talent) forced us to do that.

Now with Hayward gone, Walker injured, and Thompson signed on, the variables in the equation have changed.  Now the trade off is start Teague or Pritchard and play Tatum out of position (or someone) or put Theis out there as a PF.  Teague is no Gordon Hayward.  When Walker is back, the trade off will be Smart or Theis but for now, it definitely makes more sense to play Theis over Teague.

The Celtics have a problem or weakness.  They don't have an actual starting level PF.  I think Theis can adjust and do "OK" but that is not a great solution.  Starting Teague or Pritchard is not a solution either though.  I say stick with Theis as the lesser of two evils, keep Teague and Pritchard playing off the bench as they have been playing (and doing well) and ride this out until we can make a trade or otherwise pick up someone who can play PF for us.

Don't try to fix a problem with your power forward by adding a back up PG to the starting line up.  That is not a solution.

TP for a different take. In general I support this approach. Play your best players at their best positions and then fill in the rest of the positions. If that means a better player goes to the bench, so be it.

Applying this to the current no-Walker-Celtics, with traditional positons: Brown (SG) and Tatum (SF) automatic starters, best PG is Smart (or Teague, if you think Smart can't play point guard), at center probably Thompson best man, and then the last spot at PF it would be either Ojeleye/G-Will/Theis, and then Theis is the best player. That makes Smart/Brown/Tatum/Theis/Thompson a logical starting line-up.

But the eye-test says it's not working yet. Going more 'modern' with more fluidity between positions and classify this into guards (1 or 2), wings (1 to 3) and bigs (1 or 2). Brown + Tatum as wings, Smart as a guard are the 3 automatic starters. At least one big, need a rim protector/rebounder, so that would probably be Theis or Robert Williams. The last starter needs to be a ball handler/shooter and that would be Teague. So the starting line-up would become: Teague/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Theis. The next guys of the bench Thompson, Pritchard, R.Williams, Nesmith, Ojeleye and G.Williams. Still creates some problems with allocating minutes to the guard and wing postions.

Just going with my instinct, I say start: Pritchard/Smart/Brown/Tatum/R.Williams and first guys of the bench Teague/Nesmith/Thompson. Situational minutes: Ojeleye and Theis. In that case I think we have the best balance in shooting, scoring, playmaking, defense, rebounding and experience in both the starting line-up as the sequential bench units.

[Big333223]

The only team that starts two bigs is the Lakers (Davis and Gasol) but Gasol only plays 18 mpg and Davis is one of the best, most versatile defenders in the NBA.

That statement is simply not true.  For example, Toronto starts Baynes and Siakam.  Atlanta (Collins-Capela), Denver, (Jokic-Millsap) Indiana (Turner-Sabonis), Milwaukee (Giannis-Lopez), and there are many more.  I looked into 5-man units for last season and the vast majority of teams play with 2 bigs as their most used line up and an even higher percentage of the better teams.  Teams play at times with 1 big also, there is nothing wrong with that.

The problem with the Celtics is that we can't play a 2-big line up due to our roster.  It is a problem.  We would be a better, more competitive team if we had a decent PF to play.  We don't have the option to really choose because our 2-big options are so poor.

Right now, with Hayward gone and Walker injured, we don't really have a great alternative option either.  That is why Theis is playing PF.

Let me be more specific, when I say "big" I don't mean someone tall but someone with a traditional center's skillet. Guys who were PF's in the 90's (like Malone or Oakley) would be centers in today's game.

Siakam handles the ball on the perimeter and shoots more than six 3's a game. He's tall but he is not a traditional big like Theis and Thompson.

Collins/Capela, Jokic/Millsap, and Giannis/Lopez, are all tandems that include modern 4's who can play on the perimeter in ways Theis can't. Turner/Sabonis? Yeah, those are two traditional bigs who start together. So there are two teams.

[LilRip]

Should Ojeleye start? Semi’s definitely been playing well the past couple of games and he started the 2nd half vs the Raps.

Bottom line: stop starting both Theis/TT!!!

[Somebody]

I'm still confused as to why Stevens doesn't start Tatum at the 4. He's an ideal stretch 4 in this era, who is also great on the block with his up and under moves and mid-range step back jumper. I think Tatum is at his best when he receives the ball within the 12-18 ft range and gets to work instead of receiving it behind the 3pt line. He's also capable of defending pretty much most NBA starting 4's.

Is the concern due to going smaller in the backcourt? Smart can defend pretty much anyone, and adding a true point guard to run the offense like Teague or Pritchard (ideally Kemba when he returns) does wonders for our offense.

It's like we're trying to force guys like Theis into filling a position for no good reason.


I think the starters should be:

Teague (Kemba when he returns)
Smart
Brown
Tatum
Thompson

I feel like a huge part of our lineup versatility is Brown being able to play 2/3 (shades of 4, but not full time) and Tatum essentially being a 3/4 with the abilities of a 2.

I agree that the 2 big lineup isn't working. For this year in particular Tatum should be the other big starting. His 6'9 frame means we don't give up much size in that scenario either.

We should be focused on finding a long term stretch 4 or 3 and D wing and have our lineup go from there. When Kemba comes back it will be Kemba/Smart/Brown/Tatum/5.

Brown's our go to guy when it comes to guarding elite 4s though - Tatum usually guards the perimeter oriented wing in these situations.

[ozgod]

I'm surprised. I thought the consensus here was we wanted a team of giants to overpower other teams and crash the boards. 

[gouki88]

I'm surprised. I thought the consensus here was we wanted a team of giants to overpower other teams and crash the boards. 

If they could a) do that and b) not cripple our offence then it’d be fine!

[liam]

I'm surprised. I thought the consensus here was we wanted a team of giants to overpower other teams and crash the boards. 

I wanted a second big but one of the bigs needs to be able to shoot.