Author Topic: Off-season targets?  (Read 21415 times)

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Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #105 on: October 08, 2020, 06:29:38 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I strongly disagree with this take. The way our pick n roll defense works right now, Theis meets the ball handler at the level of the dribble hand off and denies penetration. If we had a slow footed big man who drops back to protect the rim, opponents would just blow by Kemba. Remember the series against the Sixers? This is exactly what we were doing against Milton and Embiid (both below average pick n roll defenders). Kemba got tons of open shots in that series. Here's the play we kept running. It's just a simple pick on the perimeter, yet the Sixers were unable to defend it.


I think using a team that has Milton and Harris defending on the perimeter as opposed to guys like Brown, Smart and Tatum for defensive comparisons is pretty disingenuous.

But given you want Simmons to play C for us I'm not overly surprised that the idea of a genuine centre isn't something you're hot on
It doesn't really matter who's playing next to Kemba and (let's say) Valanciunas, cause the opposing coaches would just target Kemba. All they need to do is order their Center to set a pick on the perimeter. Valanciunas would drop back, hence the ball handler would blow by past Kemba.

If you ask me, Simmons is the most switchable 6'10+ guy in the NBA. He's an amazing perimeter defender + pick n roll defender. I literally cannot think of a big man who'd be a better fit in our defensive system.
Might be hard because he's not a big man at all ;)

There's no way we're going to agree on this, I just know that I am sick of our switch-heavy defensive scheme with Theis
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Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #106 on: October 08, 2020, 06:38:46 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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I strongly disagree with this take. The way our pick n roll defense works right now, Theis meets the ball handler at the level of the dribble hand off and denies penetration. If we had a slow footed big man who drops back to protect the rim, opponents would just blow by Kemba. Remember the series against the Sixers? This is exactly what we were doing against Milton and Embiid (both below average pick n roll defenders). Kemba got tons of open shots in that series. Here's the play we kept running. It's just a simple pick on the perimeter, yet the Sixers were unable to defend it.


I think using a team that has Milton and Harris defending on the perimeter as opposed to guys like Brown, Smart and Tatum for defensive comparisons is pretty disingenuous.

But given you want Simmons to play C for us I'm not overly surprised that the idea of a genuine centre isn't something you're hot on
It doesn't really matter who's playing next to Kemba and (let's say) Valanciunas, cause the opposing coaches would just target Kemba. All they need to do is order their Center to set a pick on the perimeter. Valanciunas would drop back, hence the ball handler would blow by past Kemba.

If you ask me, Simmons is the most switchable 6'10+ guy in the NBA. He's an amazing perimeter defender + pick n roll defender. I literally cannot think of a big man who'd be a better fit in our defensive system.
Might be hard because he's not a big man at all ;)

There's no way we're going to agree on this, I just know that I am sick of our switch-heavy defensive scheme with Theis
It's working though. I mean, the C's were the 2nd best defensive team in the regular season and best defensive team in the playoffs.

Are you sick of our defensive scheme or are you sick of Theis?

Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #107 on: October 08, 2020, 06:47:31 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I strongly disagree with this take. The way our pick n roll defense works right now, Theis meets the ball handler at the level of the dribble hand off and denies penetration. If we had a slow footed big man who drops back to protect the rim, opponents would just blow by Kemba. Remember the series against the Sixers? This is exactly what we were doing against Milton and Embiid (both below average pick n roll defenders). Kemba got tons of open shots in that series. Here's the play we kept running. It's just a simple pick on the perimeter, yet the Sixers were unable to defend it.


I think using a team that has Milton and Harris defending on the perimeter as opposed to guys like Brown, Smart and Tatum for defensive comparisons is pretty disingenuous.

But given you want Simmons to play C for us I'm not overly surprised that the idea of a genuine centre isn't something you're hot on
It doesn't really matter who's playing next to Kemba and (let's say) Valanciunas, cause the opposing coaches would just target Kemba. All they need to do is order their Center to set a pick on the perimeter. Valanciunas would drop back, hence the ball handler would blow by past Kemba.

If you ask me, Simmons is the most switchable 6'10+ guy in the NBA. He's an amazing perimeter defender + pick n roll defender. I literally cannot think of a big man who'd be a better fit in our defensive system.
Might be hard because he's not a big man at all ;)

There's no way we're going to agree on this, I just know that I am sick of our switch-heavy defensive scheme with Theis
It's working though. I mean, the C's were the 2nd best defensive team in the regular season and best defensive team in the playoffs.

Are you sick of our defensive scheme or are you sick of Theis?
Sick of our scheme with Theis in it. I don't think my qualms with the defence would be solved by playing a guard at centre
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PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
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Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #108 on: October 08, 2020, 07:46:19 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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I strongly disagree with this take. The way our pick n roll defense works right now, Theis meets the ball handler at the level of the dribble hand off and denies penetration. If we had a slow footed big man who drops back to protect the rim, opponents would just blow by Kemba. Remember the series against the Sixers? This is exactly what we were doing against Milton and Embiid (both below average pick n roll defenders). Kemba got tons of open shots in that series. Here's the play we kept running. It's just a simple pick on the perimeter, yet the Sixers were unable to defend it.


I think using a team that has Milton and Harris defending on the perimeter as opposed to guys like Brown, Smart and Tatum for defensive comparisons is pretty disingenuous.

But given you want Simmons to play C for us I'm not overly surprised that the idea of a genuine centre isn't something you're hot on
It doesn't really matter who's playing next to Kemba and (let's say) Valanciunas, cause the opposing coaches would just target Kemba. All they need to do is order their Center to set a pick on the perimeter. Valanciunas would drop back, hence the ball handler would blow by past Kemba.

If you ask me, Simmons is the most switchable 6'10+ guy in the NBA. He's an amazing perimeter defender + pick n roll defender. I literally cannot think of a big man who'd be a better fit in our defensive system.
Might be hard because he's not a big man at all ;)

There's no way we're going to agree on this, I just know that I am sick of our switch-heavy defensive scheme with Theis
It's working though. I mean, the C's were the 2nd best defensive team in the regular season and best defensive team in the playoffs.

Are you sick of our defensive scheme or are you sick of Theis?
Sick of our scheme with Theis in it. I don't think my qualms with the defence would be solved by playing a guard at centre
So basically you are sick of both (at least this is my interpretation of what you wrote).

Good luck with that cause chances are that Theis will go nowhere and our defensive scheme will remain intact. :P

Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #109 on: October 08, 2020, 08:50:06 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Since 2013/14 (the season CBS took over), our only traditional starting Center has been Tyler Zeller in 2014/15. Clearly, he wasn't a long-term option for the C's.

2013/14: Sully (started 44 games that season playing alongside Brandon Bass)
2014/15: Tyller Zeller
2015/16: Sully or Amir (they were our starting duo at PF-C)
2016-2019: Horford
2019/20: Theis

It seems that CBS loves his undersized big men. Unless you are proposing we should move on from CBS, I don't see us changing our defensive scheme (neither do I want us to change it for that matter). 
Baynes started 67 at center games in 2018.
Fair enough. Even so, our most used lineup in the playoffs that year was with Marcus Morris instead of Baynes.

most used lineup (121 minutes)
Rozier - Brown - Tatum - Morris - Horford

2nd most used lineup (85 minutes)
Rozier - Brown - Tatum - Horford - Baynes

3rd most used (55 minutes)
Rozier - Smart - Tatum - Morris - Horford

4th most used (54 minutes)
Rozier - Brown - Tatum - Semi - Horford

https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612738&sort=MIN&dir=1

Baynes started in 12 out of our 19 games, but he was only playing 20.5 minutes per game.


having a big man anchoring should help us hide Walker
I strongly disagree with this take. The way our pick n roll defense works right now, Theis meets the ball handler at the level of the dribble hand off and denies penetration. If we had a slow footed big man who drops back to protect the rim, opponents would just blow by Kemba. Remember the series against the Sixers? This is exactly what we were doing against Milton and Embiid (both below average pick n roll defenders). Kemba got tons of open shots in that series. Here's the play we kept running. It's just a simple pick on the perimeter, yet the Sixers were unable to defend it.



Baynes played less than 20 mpg, but that has more to do with Baynes himself than the scheme. At the time, it was his highest mpg season in his career (and still his 2nd highest, only his 22mpg this past season in Phoenix is higher. Which is one reason that I think he'll command less in FA than some people think)

Presumably, we would change out scheme with a better defender anchoring the defense, to let Kemba go over some screens and avoid being picked on by players like Butler or Giannis. No defensive scheme can stop everything. It would definitely make things tough for a pick and roll with Kemba and a slower center, but that's why I think you need a defensive big that is above a certain level defensively to even consider changing schemes. Not someone like Valancunias, though
I'm bitter.

Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #110 on: October 08, 2020, 10:47:16 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I like Derrick Favors for the MLE if Kanter leaves. He is a lot like Theis in that he is more a PF than a Center. I remember he had great battles with AD and Cousins over the years. He is aging but still just 30. Not a three point shooter but can hit the mid range shots.

Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #111 on: October 09, 2020, 12:59:21 AM »

Offline LilRip

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I don’t think we can win with Theis as our main 5. As our first big off the bench? He’d be great.

Also, I think we need to STOP chasing the ghost of GSW. Everyone wants a “death line up” but they overlook the fact that GSW (even pre-KD) had 2 of the best shooters in the league and a DPOY-caliber big in Draymond Green (who could play 4/5). And while that lineup switched everything, it was nearly impossible to defend too because of all the shooting.

Theis is decent on D and can switch but doesn’t have the offensive prowess of and Iguodala, Barnes or Green.

What am I getting at?

We need to recognize that we aren’t GSW. And that a team like GSW isn’t likely to happen again soon. The Rockets are the closest thing and it looks like a cheap knock off despite having MVP candidates, Harden and Westbrook.

I think the C’s are a talented big away given the top 3 talents they have (JT/JB/KW). I’m not convinced it’s JV (since I don’t think he’s that talented) and I’m not convinced it’s LMA (since isn’t he turning 36?). But there’s an upgrade to be had that I hope DA is going to find.

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Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #112 on: October 09, 2020, 01:33:47 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I don’t think we can win with Theis as our main 5. As our first big off the bench? He’d be great.

Also, I think we need to STOP chasing the ghost of GSW. Everyone wants a “death line up” but they overlook the fact that GSW (even pre-KD) had 2 of the best shooters in the league and a DPOY-caliber big in Draymond Green (who could play 4/5). And while that lineup switched everything, it was nearly impossible to defend too because of all the shooting.

Theis is decent on D and can switch but doesn’t have the offensive prowess of and Iguodala, Barnes or Green.

What am I getting at?

We need to recognize that we aren’t GSW. And that a team like GSW isn’t likely to happen again soon. The Rockets are the closest thing and it looks like a cheap knock off despite having MVP candidates, Harden and Westbrook.

I think the C’s are a talented big away given the top 3 talents they have (JT/JB/KW). I’m not convinced it’s JV (since I don’t think he’s that talented) and I’m not convinced it’s LMA (since isn’t he turning 36?). But there’s an upgrade to be had that I hope DA is going to find.
No one is chasing the ghost of GSW, GSW's impact still lives on to this day and we can continue learning from them to get more out of our existing talent (eg. incorporating more off-ball movement in our offence) who completely crapped the bed to not make the finals this year.

Theis is plenty talented as a big, he's one of the better defensive anchors in the league and is an underrated passer who can be used as a passing hub on offence. He might not be a top top centre but he's certainly good enough to be the starting centre for a championship team even if we don't have a clear MVP candidate. Btw the Rockets look like anything but the Warriors, the two teams were built based on two entirely different concepts (heliocentrism vs global offence).

Can we use an upgrade at centre? Yes, but we don't have to acquire a big better than Theis in order to win a title. What we need is our young talent to continue making incremental improvements, our coaching staff reflecting on their shortcomings this year and making changes to improve their schemes as well as acquiring quality rotation players to improve our firepower outside of our core 5.
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Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #113 on: October 09, 2020, 01:35:41 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I strongly disagree with this take. The way our pick n roll defense works right now, Theis meets the ball handler at the level of the dribble hand off and denies penetration. If we had a slow footed big man who drops back to protect the rim, opponents would just blow by Kemba. Remember the series against the Sixers? This is exactly what we were doing against Milton and Embiid (both below average pick n roll defenders). Kemba got tons of open shots in that series. Here's the play we kept running. It's just a simple pick on the perimeter, yet the Sixers were unable to defend it.


I think using a team that has Milton and Harris defending on the perimeter as opposed to guys like Brown, Smart and Tatum for defensive comparisons is pretty disingenuous.

But given you want Simmons to play C for us I'm not overly surprised that the idea of a genuine centre isn't something you're hot on
It doesn't really matter who's playing next to Kemba and (let's say) Valanciunas, cause the opposing coaches would just target Kemba. All they need to do is order their Center to set a pick on the perimeter. Valanciunas would drop back, hence the ball handler would blow by past Kemba.

If you ask me, Simmons is the most switchable 6'10+ guy in the NBA. He's an amazing perimeter defender + pick n roll defender. I literally cannot think of a big man who'd be a better fit in our defensive system.
Might be hard because he's not a big man at all ;)

There's no way we're going to agree on this, I just know that I am sick of our switch-heavy defensive scheme with Theis
It's working though. I mean, the C's were the 2nd best defensive team in the regular season and best defensive team in the playoffs.

Are you sick of our defensive scheme or are you sick of Theis?
Sick of our scheme with Theis in it. I don't think my qualms with the defence would be solved by playing a guard at centre
To be fair Simmons is a glorified big forward who has great transition skills and meh half court creation ability.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #114 on: October 09, 2020, 01:46:48 AM »

Offline Somebody

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This trade would be my idea of a blockbuster trade this offseason if the opportunity arises, I'm fine with our core as it is but Utah's situation with Mitchell and Gobert is something we should monitor imo.

BOS trades: Daniel Theis, Gordon Hayward, #14, #30, #47 (or whatever our second is this year)
UTA trades: Joe Pringles, Rudy Gobert

It would catapult our defence to the very best in the league while Pringles will offset a good amount of what we will lose from trading away Hayward offensively.

Roster (with some FA signings and hopefully Bane at #26):
PG: Kemba, Wannamaker, Waters
SG: Jaylen, Smart, Bane
SF: Ingles, Jeff Green, Langford
PF: Tatum, Grant, Semi
C: Gobert, Robert, Kanter
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #115 on: October 09, 2020, 01:59:14 AM »

Offline SparzWizard

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This trade would be my idea of a blockbuster trade this offseason if the opportunity arises, I'm fine with our core as it is but Utah's situation with Mitchell and Gobert is something we should monitor imo.

BOS trades: Daniel Theis, Gordon Hayward, #14, #30, #47 (or whatever our second is this year)
UTA trades: Joe Pringles, Rudy Gobert

It would catapult our defence to the very best in the league while Pringles will offset a good amount of what we will lose from trading away Hayward offensively.

Roster (with some FA signings and hopefully Bane at #26):
PG: Kemba, Wannamaker, Waters
SG: Jaylen, Smart, Bane
SF: Ingles, Jeff Green, Langford
PF: Tatum, Grant, Semi
C: Gobert, Robert, Kanter

Sign me up for that any day. Goodbye to that albatross contract of a banged-up Gordon Hayward, that undersized inefficient center of Theis, and a bunch of picks that might more than likely end up becoming Terry Roziers or James Youngs and not Giannis or Tyler Herro lol

We get some real interior presence and some hardcore defense. Plus, Utah gets back Hayward.  ;D


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#JFJM (Just Fire Joe Mazzulla)

Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #116 on: October 09, 2020, 07:45:16 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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This trade would be my idea of a blockbuster trade this offseason if the opportunity arises, I'm fine with our core as it is but Utah's situation with Mitchell and Gobert is something we should monitor imo.

BOS trades: Daniel Theis, Gordon Hayward, #14, #30, #47 (or whatever our second is this year)
UTA trades: Joe Pringles, Rudy Gobert

It would catapult our defence to the very best in the league while Pringles will offset a good amount of what we will lose from trading away Hayward offensively.

Roster (with some FA signings and hopefully Bane at #26):
PG: Kemba, Wannamaker, Waters
SG: Jaylen, Smart, Bane
SF: Ingles, Jeff Green, Langford
PF: Tatum, Grant, Semi
C: Gobert, Robert, Kanter

Sign me up for that any day. Goodbye to that albatross contract of a banged-up Gordon Hayward, that undersized inefficient center of Theis, and a bunch of picks that might more than likely end up becoming Terry Roziers or James Youngs and not Giannis or Tyler Herro lol

We get some real interior presence and some hardcore defense. Plus, Utah gets back Hayward.  ;D

As much as I love the idea of getting Gobert there is a zero percent chance Utah does this. They get much much MUCH worse here. They are looking to continue to contend, not move their most defensively impactful player (on their team and arguably in the league) for mediocre draft picks and a medical concern.

Let alone add Joe “Pringle’s” too.

Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #117 on: October 09, 2020, 08:20:17 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Depending on how things go with Kanter and draft a flyer on Giles or Ellenson makes sense.

Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #118 on: October 09, 2020, 10:02:53 AM »

Offline Somebody

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This trade would be my idea of a blockbuster trade this offseason if the opportunity arises, I'm fine with our core as it is but Utah's situation with Mitchell and Gobert is something we should monitor imo.

BOS trades: Daniel Theis, Gordon Hayward, #14, #30, #47 (or whatever our second is this year)
UTA trades: Joe Pringles, Rudy Gobert

It would catapult our defence to the very best in the league while Pringles will offset a good amount of what we will lose from trading away Hayward offensively.

Roster (with some FA signings and hopefully Bane at #26):
PG: Kemba, Wannamaker, Waters
SG: Jaylen, Smart, Bane
SF: Ingles, Jeff Green, Langford
PF: Tatum, Grant, Semi
C: Gobert, Robert, Kanter

Sign me up for that any day. Goodbye to that albatross contract of a banged-up Gordon Hayward, that undersized inefficient center of Theis, and a bunch of picks that might more than likely end up becoming Terry Roziers or James Youngs and not Giannis or Tyler Herro lol

We get some real interior presence and some hardcore defense. Plus, Utah gets back Hayward.  ;D

As much as I love the idea of getting Gobert there is a zero percent chance Utah does this. They get much much MUCH worse here. They are looking to continue to contend, not move their most defensively impactful player (on their team and arguably in the league) for mediocre draft picks and a medical concern.

Let alone add Joe “Pringle’s” too.
This is assuming that the relationship between Mitchell and Gobert is irreparable and Utah are dumb enough to trade Gobert instead of Mitchell.
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Re: Off-season targets?
« Reply #119 on: October 11, 2020, 05:32:27 AM »

Offline gouki88

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If Okongwu or Wiseman fell to #7, would anyone consider trading Romeo, Carsen and 2 or 3 of our first rounders for #7 and Rose?
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)