Tim Duncan or KG

[twinbree]

Since KG became a Celtic I do appreciate him more than I did before now that I watch his every game so I realize the difference between the two was not as great as I used to think but its still Duncan for me.

[Fafnir]

So are people here suggesting that if you traded KG's career for TD's that the Spurs get better and win maybe 5 rings, and the TWolves get worse and ....well it's hard to get worse than they were....never get out of the first round I guess?

Who suggested that?

Instead people are suggesting that if their teams were reversed you get the same, or roughly the same results for both players.

[Fafnir]

Looking at who stepped up and lead his team to titles, Duncan 4, KG 1. 

And Duncan never had players as good as Pierce and Ray.  (Robinson was past his prime when they played together.  Still good defensively, but lost a step offensively.  Much like KG this year)

Look at their teammates. KG has had how many teams that were good enough to win a title, four? One with the T-Wolves and all of his years with the C's.(If we count this year)

Duncan has had a legit contending team around him far more often. One player has had 4 chances at a ring and the other has had at least 8.

Basketball is a team game.

I disagree.  He had many teams with talent. 

Which ones? Which talented second tier talents did KG have to play with?

Early on
Googs and Marbury
Then Brandon, Smith and Wally.

Then they added Billups

And finally, the Spree Cassell team.


None of those guys are the on Pierce's level in terms of taking over at the end of the game, and that hurt KG's playoff winning chances. 

Duncan never needed that other player to do that. 

None of those players were as good as Duncan's teammates. Both in talent and in fit.

Googs was only high quality KGs first two years, and he forced KG to play the 3. Marbury isn't a player you could win with, I think that much is obvious. Terrell Brandon, what??? Wally was a very efficient scorer, but not much beyond that.

[Onslaught]

With the game on the line and one of them had to shoot the ball who would you want? I'd take Duncan every time.

I appreciate the hard work that KG brings. But Duncan is a better player. I really don't think it's close.

[Onslaught]

Tough question.

I don't like to use the "4 rings" argument to claim Duncan's the best player. On the other hand, his 4 rings talk for his career and his accomplishments but, for example, would you argue that Kobe is better than KG because he has 4 rings (I know they don't play at the same position but still)? I wouldn't.
javascript:void(0);

Not just because of the rings. Kobe is WAY better than KG. When it's over with you could make an argument that he's top 5 or 10 of all time. Can't do the same with KG.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Kobe for many reasons. I hated him even before he became a Laker. But the guy is on another level then KG.

[Fafnir]

With the game on the line and one of them had to shoot the ball who would you want? I'd take Duncan every time.

Yet they shoot same percentage, and KG if fouled is a much better FT shooter....

[Fafnir]

Tough question.

I don't like to use the "4 rings" argument to claim Duncan's the best player. On the other hand, his 4 rings talk for his career and his accomplishments but, for example, would you argue that Kobe is better than KG because he has 4 rings (I know they don't play at the same position but still)? I wouldn't.
javascript:void(0);

Not just because of the rings. Kobe is WAY better than KG. When it's over with you could make an argument that he's top 5 or 10 of all time. Can't do the same with KG.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Kobe for many reasons. I hated him even before he became a Laker. But the guy is on another level then KG.

I actually think its quite the opposite. KG has been a much better player than Kobe over their careers. Part of that is that a 7 foot player is inherently more valuable than a SG, but KG has been better especially when you consider defense.

Shaq, Duncan, and KG are the best three players of the era with significant separation between the crowd. CP3, Dwight Howard, LeBron are the only players younger that have the potential to get up there.

[Onslaught]

With the game on the line and one of them had to shoot the ball who would you want? I'd take Duncan every time.

Yet they shoot same percentage, and KG if fouled is a much better FT shooter....

Don't really care about numbers. Numbers don't show that slight hesitation when the games on the line and "the man" has to take the shot. I've seen KG hesitate and knew the ball wasn't going in after it left his hands in situations like that.

I didn't and still don't think KG has that "thing" that the true great ones have. He's got in on the defensive end for sure. But not as much on the other end. Or not so much in crunch time.

[Fafnir]

With the game on the line and one of them had to shoot the ball who would you want? I'd take Duncan every time.

Yet they shoot same percentage, and KG if fouled is a much better FT shooter....

Don't really care about numbers. Numbers don't show that slight hesitation when the games on the line and "the man" has to take the shot. I've seen KG hesitate and knew the ball wasn't going in after it left his hands in situations like that.

I didn't and still don't think KG has that "thing" that the true great ones have. He's got in on the defensive end for sure. But not as much on the other end. Or not so much in crunch time.

So you don't care about the number of times the ball goes in the basket, rather you care about your perception of how they look when they shoot?

[Onslaught]

With the game on the line and one of them had to shoot the ball who would you want? I'd take Duncan every time.

Yet they shoot same percentage, and KG if fouled is a much better FT shooter....

Don't really care about numbers. Numbers don't show that slight hesitation when the games on the line and "the man" has to take the shot. I've seen KG hesitate and knew the ball wasn't going in after it left his hands in situations like that.

I didn't and still don't think KG has that "thing" that the true great ones have. He's got in on the defensive end for sure. But not as much on the other end. Or not so much in crunch time.

So you don't care about the number of times the ball goes in the basket, rather you care about your perception of how they look when they shoot?

I've seen him choke or pass up the ball rather than step up and do it. You'd take KG. I'd take Duncan. Wish we'd got him in the first place and this argument wouldn't be needed. And perhaps we'd have more than 17 banners.

[Scalablob990]

I'd pick KG over Timmy anyday. You can tell when KG plays against Duncan he resents him in some way, KG has never been given the repsect he deserves in that match up. KG was always a WAY better athlete/defender then Timmy ever was. Put KG in SA and TD in Minny and you have a simple exchange of fate. That would have been awful for us if we got TD instead of KG since he's more washed up then the shore at this point in his career. He almost needs a scooter to get back on time for defense.

KG was the Paul Pierce for Minnesota, he had to do all the work for his team if they even thought about winning a game. The KG or TD discussion is similar to the "Pierce < Carter" "Pierce < T-Mac" "Pierce = R. Jefferson" discussions.

This is just my own personal rant though since it's bothered me for a while, not attacking any1's beliefs on the matter, you say potato I say POWE-tato.

[drza44]

And Duncan never had players as good as Pierce and Ray.  (Robinson was past his prime when they played together.  Still good defensively, but lost a step offensively.  Much like KG this year)

Robinson was better for the early part of Duncan's career than Pierce or Ray have ever been.  That's no disrespect to either Pierce or Ray, Robinson was still that good.  And Ginobili/Parker have performed at least as well in the last couple of Spurs postseason runs as Pierce/Allen did in '08.

Early on
Googs and Marbury
Then Brandon, Smith and Wally.

Then they added Billups

And finally, the Spree Cassell team.


None of those guys are the on Pierce's level in terms of taking over at the end of the game, and that hurt KG's playoff winning chances. 

Duncan never needed that other player to do that. 

It should be telling that you were listing the absolute best that KG had to work with in 12 years in Minnesota, and even skipping the really bad years you still had to list rookies (Marbury was 19 the only year that he played with KG and Googs), inexperienced at-that-time journeymen (Chauncey was considered a bust and on his last legs, signed to a near minimum deal to play back-up before he resurrected his career next to KG) and role players (Joe Smith?  Really?) among the short list of "best and brightest".  As someone else pointed out, Duncan's teammates were consistently more talented than KG's.  Usually by a lot. 

And Ginobili (and to a lesser extent Parker) played the "Pierce role" on the last couple of Spurs championships.  And Duncan absolutely needed them in that role.

[drza44]

Tough question.

I don't like to use the "4 rings" argument to claim Duncan's the best player. On the other hand, his 4 rings talk for his career and his accomplishments but, for example, would you argue that Kobe is better than KG because he has 4 rings (I know they don't play at the same position but still)? I wouldn't.
javascript:void(0);

Not just because of the rings. Kobe is WAY better than KG. When it's over with you could make an argument that he's top 5 or 10 of all time. Can't do the same with KG.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Kobe for many reasons. I hated him even before he became a Laker. But the guy is on another level then KG.

I actually think its quite the opposite. KG has been a much better player than Kobe over their careers. Part of that is that a 7 foot player is inherently more valuable than a SG, but KG has been better especially when you consider defense.

Shaq, Duncan, and KG are the best three players of the era with significant separation between the crowd. CP3, Dwight Howard, LeBron are the only players younger that have the potential to get up there.

TP, for saying what I would have said had I been here first.  To a much larger extent than Duncan, just about the only viable argument for Kobe over Garnett is the 4 rings.  KG has routinely had the much larger impact than Kobe over the course of their careers.

[drza44]

With the game on the line and one of them had to shoot the ball who would you want? I'd take Duncan every time.

Yet they shoot same percentage, and KG if fouled is a much better FT shooter....

Don't really care about numbers. Numbers don't show that slight hesitation when the games on the line and "the man" has to take the shot. I've seen KG hesitate and knew the ball wasn't going in after it left his hands in situations like that.

I didn't and still don't think KG has that "thing" that the true great ones have. He's got in on the defensive end for sure. But not as much on the other end. Or not so much in crunch time.

The thing is, the numbers tell the same story in crunch time.  If KG really shrank from the moment while Duncan was stalwart at the end, then it would have to show up somewhere in their late-game numbers over their long careers.  But 82games.com has been keeping track of those numbers since 2002, and over that 8 year period Duncan's and KG's clutch scoring stats are almost identical (both volume and percentages).

Plus, for every anecdotal "Duncan came up big" stories I could match a KG one as well.  As someone else pointed out, for all of the "KG isn't clutch" rumors, where are the examples?  Nobody's perfect at in the clutch or in big games, but KG has stepped up a LOT more often than he's come up short.  Just like Duncan.  The difference in their ring count is much more about who they were playing with than how either performs in crunch-time.

[buzz]

We all love KG, but fellow Celtics fans... if Duncan and KG had both been available for the same trade in 2007, who would you have preferred?

Tell the truth.