Author Topic: wow. so scal is needed  (Read 7087 times)

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Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2009, 06:22:11 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Can't we just agree that neither Scal or BBD is very good!

I think situational was a perfect term.  We can get by with either of them in certain limited situations but neither is very good.  Scal got his one pretty good contract and BBD may not if he doesn't lose some weight and tone up quickly.

Neither is very good but at this point we don't have anyone better.  Toronto is pretty lame so both had decent contributions even though BBD couldn't hit a lay up today.  Does anyone really expect much from either of these guys?

Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2009, 06:24:07 PM »

Offline RebusRankin

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Scal made a good contribution today. Got to give credit when its due.

Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2009, 06:53:41 PM »

Online Atzar

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Scal was 3-for-5 with a block and a steal and the team was +15 with him in there, but he's getting mocked.  That makes a lot of sense...

Tommy said it best after the game: Scal is a situational player and today was the perfect situation to play him.  Toronto was using a perimeter player at center and Scal was the best matchup against him.  Good move by Doc.  And even more importantly than the couple shots he hit, was the feistiness he displayed on the court, standing up to Graham after Joey tried to start some nonsense.  We have sorely lack such spunk during this bad stretch and good for Scal for manning up and providing what we needed. 

It's true, Scal doesn't deserve to be mocked for anything he did today, since it was one of his best performances of the year.  However, his situational effectiveness will never obscure his fundamental terribleness.  Scal will never be a consistent shooter, scorer, rebounder, or defender and will always be cursed by his inability to play within himself.  However, against certain guys on certain teams, his pestiness is effective.  But, other than about 15-20 situational games where his presence is helpful, he should never see the floor.  He does nothing well, other than being annoying.  Unfortunately for him, annoyance is easily counteracted by actual talent.


Meanwhile, the true fat blob on our team contributed the worst offensive game of any Celtics player in recent memory, and yet people stick to the tried and true chastisement of Scal.  Yep, that's understandable.

The worst offensive game of any Celtics player in recent memory?   Really?  Your memory must be slipping, because KG was 3-16 today.  Baby also had 11 rebounds and missed a bunch of layups he otherwise usually makes.  It's not like he was chucking 3s like Scal often does...these were makeup shots in the flow of the offense that he just missed.  There will be nights like that, just ask KG.

I disagree with the bolded part.  The fact that he plays within himself is the reason I think Doc trusts him so much - he's not going to go out and try to be a hero.  He's going to give you solid team and man-to-man defense, box out his man on the boards, take care of the ball and do his best to knock down the shot when he's open.  He's actually been more consistent than just about everybody on our bench this year, except for Eddie and TA - and they've been consistently bad. 

With the way they've played, I really don't understand why Cassell hasn't been dusted off yet. 
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 06:59:52 PM by Atzar »

Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2009, 07:45:11 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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Roy,

Then I guess you would agree that Big Baby had some better defensive numbers, since he had two steals to KG's 0 and had 11 rebounds in 30 minutes or .37 per minute compared to KG's 11 in 39 minutes or .28 per minute:-)))  Correct??:-))

Smitty77

Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2009, 07:48:48 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Roy,

Then I guess you would agree that Big Baby had some better defensive numbers, since he had two steals to KG's 0 and had 11 rebounds in 30 minutes or .37 per minute compared to KG's 11 in 39 minutes or .28 per minute:-)))  Correct??:-))

Smitty77

I wasn't arguing his defensive numbers, although defensive stats aren't necessarily a good indicator of defensive effectiveness.  KG is a much better defender than BBD, and he's a much, much better offensive player.  I don't think it's fair to compare the two, though; I'd rather compare BBD to a player of his caliber, which is why I started the Scal vs. BBD thread.

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Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2009, 08:14:47 PM »

Offline winsomme

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this was a good matchup for Scals and he played well today in Perk's absence.

Scal guards the perimeter well for a big and it was a nice call for Doc in starting him....TOR has pretty much an exclusive perimeter attack even with their bigs.

Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2009, 08:20:35 PM »

Offline Andy Jick

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well, hopefully perk will come back healthy...scal will return to his role as 10th man...and danny makes a trade so big baby doesn't see as much court time...

all's well that ends well!  :D
"It was easier to know it than to explain why I know it."

Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2009, 08:31:45 PM »

Offline vinnie

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As I wrote in another thread, what's not to like about a guy with little talent who picks up a personal foul every 4 minutes?

Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2009, 08:37:13 PM »

Offline TheReaLPuba

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Roy,

Then I guess you would agree that Big Baby had some better defensive numbers, since he had two steals to KG's 0 and had 11 rebounds in 30 minutes or .37 per minute compared to KG's 11 in 39 minutes or .28 per minute:-)))  Correct??:-))

Smitty77

I wasn't arguing his defensive numbers, although defensive stats aren't necessarily a good indicator of defensive effectiveness.  KG is a much better defender than BBD, and he's a much, much better offensive player.  I don't think it's fair to compare the two, though; I'd rather compare BBD to a player of his caliber, which is why I started the Scal vs. BBD thread.

BBD is still the superior player.

Scals is a token 14th player on the bench.

BBD actually contributes on a Championship team in the playoffs!

Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2009, 08:55:44 PM »

Offline FatjohnReturns

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Cmon, not everyone that plays pro ball is built like Lebron. Scal is beautiful.

Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2009, 09:03:01 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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scal stepped up today, give credit it where it is due (im not a scal fan either).  also, kudos to doc for identifying the situational matchup and giving scal the start over powe and bbd

Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2009, 11:36:11 PM »

Offline Andy Jick

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"It was easier to know it than to explain why I know it."

Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2009, 04:31:57 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Nomination for the funniest pic of the year. Nice job Jick. Keep it up. I am still laughing... TP!

Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2009, 09:17:56 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Tommy said it best after the game: Scal is a situational player and today was the perfect situation to play him.

Well, in an ideal situation all our bench players - excluding Cassell, Pruitt and the rookies - are situational players.

Big Baby should only play against post players who can only score in the key - Davis is good taking them out of their comfort zone and is generally too quick and agile to that kind of players.

Powe is effective when he can match up on smaller, weaker front-courts and play off better players (avoiding doubles). When he can't play along our starters his production declines mightily (also due to his inability to pass and to deal with double-teams) and he struggles to defend better, bigger players than him (as most of the starting big men are).

Tony Allen is a defensive wing specialist whose inconsistency and unreliability makes imperative to take him out of the floor when his mind is not the game (because he can really hurt you deep). And although he plays bigger than his size, he's still a guard who matches up poorly with bigger/taller wings and with very limited range/accuracy on his jumper.

House is probably the less situational player of the entire bench, but for most of his entire career he was the poster boy of the situational bench player: he provides lots of 3pt shot attempts in a few minutes; when he's hot, he's a great player to have; when he's cold, you just take him out of the court.

All these guys have short-comings that make them extremely poor fits on some particular situations and acceptable to very good ones on others. That's the definition of a situational player and I don't think Scal is much different relatively to his peers.


Re: wow. so scal is needed
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2009, 12:05:02 AM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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Tommy said it best after the game: Scal is a situational player and today was the perfect situation to play him.

Well, in an ideal situation all our bench players - excluding Cassell, Pruitt and the rookies - are situational players.

Big Baby should only play against post players who can only score in the key - Davis is good taking them out of their comfort zone and is generally too quick and agile to that kind of players.

Powe is effective when he can match up on smaller, weaker front-courts and play off better players (avoiding doubles). When he can't play along our starters his production declines mightily (also due to his inability to pass and to deal with double-teams) and he struggles to defend better, bigger players than him (as most of the starting big men are).

Tony Allen is a defensive wing specialist whose inconsistency and unreliability makes imperative to take him out of the floor when his mind is not the game (because he can really hurt you deep). And although he plays bigger than his size, he's still a guard who matches up poorly with bigger/taller wings and with very limited range/accuracy on his jumper.

House is probably the less situational player of the entire bench, but for most of his entire career he was the poster boy of the situational bench player: he provides lots of 3pt shot attempts in a few minutes; when he's hot, he's a great player to have; when he's cold, you just take him out of the court.

All these guys have short-comings that make them extremely poor fits on some particular situations and acceptable to very good ones on others. That's the definition of a situational player and I don't think Scal is much different relatively to his peers.



There are 3 things to remember:

1.  All situational players aren't equal because all possible SITUATIONS are not equally likely happen.  Some situations happen on a limited basis and other situations occur more regularly.  If you play Toronto and they play a 7 foot small forward at center, that's a great game for Scal, because both players can play bounce their flabby bodies around on the perimeter and not get any rebounds or do anything else remotely related to the center position and neither team is worse for the wear.  But this is a rare situation.  You only play Toronto four times a year.
2.  All situational players are not equal because their defining characteristic--that one and only NBA skill they do well and which defines them as 'situational"--is not equal.  I agree, Eddie shoots, TA defends, Powe scores in the post, Baby bodies well in key and these skills--and the fact that each only possess one--are what make them situational players.  However, while shooting and scoring comes and goes, defense is often quite consistent.  So, while each does only one thing well, the things that those players do are not always consistently exhibited.  Further, the manner in which this skill is exhibited in not equal.  Both House and Powe are situational players based on offensive ability, yet Powe is the better situational player (more effective in more situations) because his offense is more efficient, closer to the basket, and based on getting contact and getting to the line, while House's is the ultimate hit-or-miss offensive move--the 3 point shot. 
3.  Scal is the rarest of situational players because he does not even do ONE thing well on the NBA level.  He is still, to a marginal degree, a situational player because he has a good BBIQ and he hustles on the court, which can sometimes make up for a lack of talent, athleticism, or any discernible NBA skill in certain situations. 

So, make no mistake, while all our bench players might be 'situational' they are in no way similar in their effectiveness.  Scal, rest assured, is by far the worst of our situational bench players.

In terms of most suited to every situation (thus being the most situational), I'd rate our bench as follows:

TA
Powe
Pruitt
House
Baby
Scal
POB

As you can see, I rate defensive players as the most valuable situational players because their situational skills are, by nature, the most consistent.  Offensive players rate next, because their situational skills are variable, and then hustle/BBIQ players last because such players can be stopped easily by better talent and/or game planning.  So, yes, Scal is very different relatively to his peers because he's in the lowest class of situational players, while most, if not all, of our other bench player possess at least ONE situational skill and are thus either defensive or offensive situational players.
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