BBD / Is Big Baby being showcased (merged)

[Fafnir]

I have heard a lot about Powe getting missed on rotations but haven't really seen it when watching the games. I did see BBD today not be there for help a few times (like when Bosh went by KG for a Jam). I challenge someone during the next game thread to point out times when Powe was out of position versus when BBD is out of position. I have heard a lot of people mentioning Powe's poor rotations but I have not seen them much with my own eyes.

*shrug* might not happen next game, but it does happen. I've seen the lapses, but then again I saw Pierce give up two bad ones this game.

I trust the coaching staffs judgment on this topic. Powe is clearly the superior offensive player. So defense and matchups is the only reason that BBD would see time ahead of him.

Besides today Powe was not as good of an option when it comes to playing the 5. Especially when we don't have Perkins, we needed KG in to deal with Bosh so Powe didn't get much chance this game. He essentially got all the backup minutes at the 4.

[Scalablob990]

I have heard a lot about Powe getting missed on rotations but haven't really seen it when watching the games. I did see BBD today not be there for help a few times (like when Bosh went by KG for a Jam). I challenge someone during the next game thread to point out times when Powe was out of position versus when BBD is out of position. I have heard a lot of people mentioning Powe's poor rotations but I have not seen them much with my own eyes.

TP, thought I was alone on that boat, i'm sorry but i'm not seeing where these missed rotations are occuring. I usually see leon doing his job, and once in a blue moon see him running at someone to block a shot after a screw up. In reality i'm seeing BBD, Garnett, Perkins,Scal, and defintely Rondo missing there defensive assignments.

[Scalablob990]

I have heard a lot about Powe getting missed on rotations but haven't really seen it when watching the games. I did see BBD today not be there for help a few times (like when Bosh went by KG for a Jam). I challenge someone during the next game thread to point out times when Powe was out of position versus when BBD is out of position. I have heard a lot of people mentioning Powe's poor rotations but I have not seen them much with my own eyes.

*shrug* might not happen next game, but it does happen. I've seen the lapses, but then again I saw Pierce give up two bad ones this game.

I trust the coaching staffs judgment on this topic. Powe is clearly the superior offensive player. So defense and matchups is the only reason that BBD would see time ahead of him.

Besides today Powe was not as good of an option when it comes to playing the 5. Especially when we don't have Perkins, we needed KG in to deal with Bosh so Powe didn't get much chance this game. He essentially got all the backup minutes at the 4.

I thought Leon did pretty good with the limited time he saw today. Quick five points and very good defense, but we all hold different opinions so not a big deal. I think Scal had an awful game, but others say no he was very good. Every1's different.

[nickagneta]

You people are missing the rotations because what you are seeing is Powe sticking to his man and then when someone is left wide open or a lane opens you believe what you're seeing is bad defense on another player. Rotations in this defensive scheme are not limited to help defense on a drive.

Here's an example on a screen set on the perimeter. The Celtics have the screen man's defender jump out to slow the man with the ball down and then have the defender on the ball go under the man. Sometimes there's a switch, sometimes the jump slows the man up. But if the screen man's defender can't get back to his man, the rotation is for him to fall back into the lane and have the person who has a man in the lane or posting on the side the screen man went to jump the defense on the picker while the picker's original defender rotates down through the lane prohibiting the pass down under and watching for a roll and then he grabs the man who was vacated down low.

The Celtics run all sorts of variations of this three man rotating defense on all sides of the court and depending on the movement of the offense can often get into four and five man rotations. It can get complicated.

Powe seems to constantly stick to his man or do a simple switch. When he has to do a three or four man rotation he is way too often very late realizing which player he is supposed to go to and leaves the man open. This is why you often see Baby on the perimeter guarding a point guard or on the wing guarding the PF or SF. He gets it. He goes where he's supposed to. Powe does not. If bench players are sitting or their minutes start to dwindle this is probably the main cause of it. It is why Scal and Baby played center yesterday and Powe saw limited time and POB never sees the floor, among other reasons.

This is what you have to watch for.

[housecall]

Now thats what i call showcasing,can't miss the fat boy.Is that KG in the middle.Are they showcasing him also?,lol... tp for the pic.

[LB3533]

Big Baby not stepping up to guard a Chris Bosh blow-by KG IS NOT A MISSED rotation.

A missed rotation is basically a "blown assignment".

No one is expecting KG to be out on the perimeter guarding Chris Bosh's ineffective jumper.

[LB3533]

I agree with EJ.  If BBD is getting showcased, it's the most ineffective showcase of all time.  I'm constantly reading on here how BBD helps the team, and I simply don't see it this season.

As Rida alluded to, 65% of his shots are jumpers, and he's shooting 29.9% on them.  BBD is averaging a terrible 6.5 rebounds per 36 minutes (by far the worst of the four bigs in the rotation), and the only guys on the team with a worse PER are Scal and Walker.

Also, while people always laud Baby for working hard, I disagree.  The only time I saw Baby work hard is when he shed 60 pounds prior to draft workouts, to improve his draft position.  Since then, he's put much of that weight back on.  I remember reading a story last season saying that the first thing the Celts did after signing P.J. was assign him to BBD as a full-time mentor, in part to get him working hard.  BBD might show a lot of hustle on the court, but I'm seeing no signs that he has a work ethic off the court.

The team should have signed Mutumbo.  BBD isn't the problem with this team, but he's a piece that should have been upgraded.  If Danny is smart, he'll let him walk in the off-season if he's offered anything more than a minimum deal by another team.

If Danny was smart he would never had resigned Tony Allen and Eddie House. Danny falls in love with certain players sometimes and won't let go of them. I think Baby might be one of those players.

Unfortunately, I agree with you.  Danny seems to have a lot of loyalty towards his roster, and sometimes it appears misplaced.

I disagree, Danny is cold blooded and has no loyalty to any player. The only reason he  re-upped House and TA is because he couldn't find anything better at the price he wanted.

[Chris]

I agree with EJ.  If BBD is getting showcased, it's the most ineffective showcase of all time.  I'm constantly reading on here how BBD helps the team, and I simply don't see it this season.

As Rida alluded to, 65% of his shots are jumpers, and he's shooting 29.9% on them.  BBD is averaging a terrible 6.5 rebounds per 36 minutes (by far the worst of the four bigs in the rotation), and the only guys on the team with a worse PER are Scal and Walker.

Also, while people always laud Baby for working hard, I disagree.  The only time I saw Baby work hard is when he shed 60 pounds prior to draft workouts, to improve his draft position.  Since then, he's put much of that weight back on.  I remember reading a story last season saying that the first thing the Celts did after signing P.J. was assign him to BBD as a full-time mentor, in part to get him working hard.  BBD might show a lot of hustle on the court, but I'm seeing no signs that he has a work ethic off the court.

The team should have signed Mutumbo.  BBD isn't the problem with this team, but he's a piece that should have been upgraded.  If Danny is smart, he'll let him walk in the off-season if he's offered anything more than a minimum deal by another team.

If Danny was smart he would never had resigned Tony Allen and Eddie House. Danny falls in love with certain players sometimes and won't let go of them. I think Baby might be one of those players.

Unfortunately, I agree with you.  Danny seems to have a lot of loyalty towards his roster, and sometimes it appears misplaced.

I disagree, Danny is cold blooded and has no loyalty to any player. The only reason he  re-upped House and TA is because he couldn't find anything better at the price he wanted.

I am more in line with this thinking.  I believe he resigned Tony, because none of the comparable players would agree to sign for the minimum, and there were not any players out there who he felt were worth using part of the MLE for...so he took advantage of their bird rights on Tony.

With House, it is a little more difficult.  I think a big part is that he didn't think there were much better options out there for the money, but I also think with the loss of Posey, he felt they needed to bring back House for the chemistry and leadership he brings.  I also think Danny (nor Doc) have even wanted House to be their backup PG in meaningful games, but have expected for someone (Cassell in particular) to take that role by the end of the season.

[Scalablob990]

You people are missing the rotations because what you are seeing is Powe sticking to his man and then when someone is left wide open or a lane opens you believe what you're seeing is bad defense on another player. Rotations in this defensive scheme are not limited to help defense on a drive.

Here's an example on a screen set on the perimeter. The Celtics have the screen man's defender jump out to slow the man with the ball down and then have the defender on the ball go under the man. Sometimes there's a switch, sometimes the jump slows the man up. But if the screen man's defender can't get back to his man, the rotation is for him to fall back into the lane and have the person who has a man in the lane or posting on the side the screen man went to jump the defense on the picker while the picker's original defender rotates down through the lane prohibiting the pass down under and watching for a roll and then he grabs the man who was vacated down low.

The Celtics run all sorts of variations of this three man rotating defense on all sides of the court and depending on the movement of the offense can often get into four and five man rotations. It can get complicated.

Powe seems to constantly stick to his man or do a simple switch. When he has to do a three or four man rotation he is way too often very late realizing which player he is supposed to go to and leaves the man open. This is why you often see Baby on the perimeter guarding a point guard or on the wing guarding the PF or SF. He gets it. He goes where he's supposed to. Powe does not. If bench players are sitting or their minutes start to dwindle this is probably the main cause of it. It is why Scal and Baby played center yesterday and Powe saw limited time and POB never sees the floor, among other reasons.

This is what you have to watch for.

TP Nick for things to look for, I appreciate it. I'll look the next few games to see if this appears true, and if these things do occur.

[Chris]

You people are missing the rotations because what you are seeing is Powe sticking to his man and then when someone is left wide open or a lane opens you believe what you're seeing is bad defense on another player. Rotations in this defensive scheme are not limited to help defense on a drive.

Here's an example on a screen set on the perimeter. The Celtics have the screen man's defender jump out to slow the man with the ball down and then have the defender on the ball go under the man. Sometimes there's a switch, sometimes the jump slows the man up. But if the screen man's defender can't get back to his man, the rotation is for him to fall back into the lane and have the person who has a man in the lane or posting on the side the screen man went to jump the defense on the picker while the picker's original defender rotates down through the lane prohibiting the pass down under and watching for a roll and then he grabs the man who was vacated down low.

The Celtics run all sorts of variations of this three man rotating defense on all sides of the court and depending on the movement of the offense can often get into four and five man rotations. It can get complicated.

Powe seems to constantly stick to his man or do a simple switch. When he has to do a three or four man rotation he is way too often very late realizing which player he is supposed to go to and leaves the man open. This is why you often see Baby on the perimeter guarding a point guard or on the wing guarding the PF or SF. He gets it. He goes where he's supposed to. Powe does not. If bench players are sitting or their minutes start to dwindle this is probably the main cause of it. It is why Scal and Baby played center yesterday and Powe saw limited time and POB never sees the floor, among other reasons.

This is what you have to watch for.

Great post.  This is what I have been trying to say for the last two years, but haven't been able to explain it nearly as clearly. 

[ben]

You people are missing the rotations because what you are seeing is Powe sticking to his man and then when someone is left wide open or a lane opens you believe what you're seeing is bad defense on another player. Rotations in this defensive scheme are not limited to help defense on a drive.

Here's an example on a screen set on the perimeter. The Celtics have the screen man's defender jump out to slow the man with the ball down and then have the defender on the ball go under the man. Sometimes there's a switch, sometimes the jump slows the man up. But if the screen man's defender can't get back to his man, the rotation is for him to fall back into the lane and have the person who has a man in the lane or posting on the side the screen man went to jump the defense on the picker while the picker's original defender rotates down through the lane prohibiting the pass down under and watching for a roll and then he grabs the man who was vacated down low.

The Celtics run all sorts of variations of this three man rotating defense on all sides of the court and depending on the movement of the offense can often get into four and five man rotations. It can get complicated.

Powe seems to constantly stick to his man or do a simple switch. When he has to do a three or four man rotation he is way too often very late realizing which player he is supposed to go to and leaves the man open. This is why you often see Baby on the perimeter guarding a point guard or on the wing guarding the PF or SF. He gets it. He goes where he's supposed to. Powe does not. If bench players are sitting or their minutes start to dwindle this is probably the main cause of it. It is why Scal and Baby played center yesterday and Powe saw limited time and POB never sees the floor, among other reasons.

This is what you have to watch for.

Great post.  This is what I have been trying to say for the last two years, but haven't been able to explain it nearly as clearly. 

Despite these supposed missed rotations, powe's +/- numbers STILL are much much better than Davis.  http://www.82games.com/0809/0809BOSP.HTM

The numbers show he played great with Kevin Garnett so far this season  ( +33 per 48 min. )  vs. davis and garnett ( just +12 per 48, worst player with garnett except for scal and TA) 
 
also they show Davis and Perkins are terrible together  ( -26 per 48) while powe and Perkins are ok (+3 per 48) 

Kelly Dwyer agrees

  "Scalabrine eventually fouled out, and as a result, Glen Davis played 30 minutes. Now, while this may seem like a reaction to Davis' 1-12 shooting night, you have to understand that I pride myself on trying to be even keel with these things. That said, Davis is killing the Celtics. Destroying this team.

His PER on the season is around 8, which puts him amongst the worst rotation players in the NBA, and PER doesn't account for his defensive attributes. Which are awful. Ruddy awful. And I just refuse to buy the excuse that Doc Rivers can't play Kevin Garnett and Leon Powe on the court together. "

[nickagneta]

You people are missing the rotations because what you are seeing is Powe sticking to his man and then when someone is left wide open or a lane opens you believe what you're seeing is bad defense on another player. Rotations in this defensive scheme are not limited to help defense on a drive.

Here's an example on a screen set on the perimeter. The Celtics have the screen man's defender jump out to slow the man with the ball down and then have the defender on the ball go under the man. Sometimes there's a switch, sometimes the jump slows the man up. But if the screen man's defender can't get back to his man, the rotation is for him to fall back into the lane and have the person who has a man in the lane or posting on the side the screen man went to jump the defense on the picker while the picker's original defender rotates down through the lane prohibiting the pass down under and watching for a roll and then he grabs the man who was vacated down low.

The Celtics run all sorts of variations of this three man rotating defense on all sides of the court and depending on the movement of the offense can often get into four and five man rotations. It can get complicated.

Powe seems to constantly stick to his man or do a simple switch. When he has to do a three or four man rotation he is way too often very late realizing which player he is supposed to go to and leaves the man open. This is why you often see Baby on the perimeter guarding a point guard or on the wing guarding the PF or SF. He gets it. He goes where he's supposed to. Powe does not. If bench players are sitting or their minutes start to dwindle this is probably the main cause of it. It is why Scal and Baby played center yesterday and Powe saw limited time and POB never sees the floor, among other reasons.

This is what you have to watch for.

Great post.  This is what I have been trying to say for the last two years, but haven't been able to explain it nearly as clearly. 

Despite these supposed missed rotations, powe's +/- numbers STILL are much much better than Davis.  http://www.82games.com/0809/0809BOSP.HTM

The numbers show he played great with Kevin Garnett so far this season  ( +33 per 48 min. )  vs. davis and garnett ( just +12 per 48, worst player with garnett except for scal and TA) 
 
also they show Davis and Perkins are terrible together  ( -26 per 48 ) while powe and Perkins are ok (+3 per 48 ) 

Kelly Dwyer agrees

  "Scalabrine eventually fouled out, and as a result, Glen Davis played 30 minutes. Now, while this may seem like a reaction to Davis' 1-12 shooting night, you have to understand that I pride myself on trying to be even keel with these things. That said, Davis is killing the Celtics. Destroying this team.

His PER on the season is around 8, which puts him amongst the worst rotation players in the NBA, and PER doesn't account for his defensive attributes. Which are awful. Ruddy awful. And I just refuse to buy the excuse that Doc Rivers can't play Kevin Garnett and Leon Powe on the court together. "

Kelly Dwyer is a good writer. I'm not sure he's the best judge of talent.