BBD / Is Big Baby being showcased (merged)

[KungPoweChicken]

I'll never understand why Davis became a jump shooting player this year.

[winsomme]

In my opinion, BBD is playing because he's been better than Powe. As simple as that.

He certainly hasn't been better scoring, rebounding, shooting, or creating contact.  Also, opposing players are shooting a significantly lower percentage against Powe than they are against Baby.

part of the problem that i see is that Powe, BBD and TA are trying to fulfill that "replace Posey by committee" concept that i never thought made sense.

thus  you have too much pressure IMO on Powe and BBD to actually score. I think their value is playing off other guys...not being the goto guy.....

so i think if we had a more reliable scorer off the bench, it would not only help the starters but it would also help the bench guys move back to their more natural skills...

[Roy Hobbs]

In my opinion, BBD is playing because he's been better than Powe. As simple as that.

Agreed.  Better defender, better passer, has a jumpshot , better free throw shooter.  He's also was able to pick up the rotations as a rookie (higher BBIQ?), something Powe still struggles with at times.

Better defender?  Opposing power forwards are shooting 42.9% against Powe, and Powe is outrebounding his opponents.  Opposing centers are shooting 51.3% against BBD, and he's getting significantly outrebounded.  When Powe is on the floor, opponent's average 5.6 fewer points per 48 minutes than when BBD is in there. (85.9 vs. 91.5).

Better passer?  Probably, but their assist rate is almost identical.  (1.4 assists per 36 for Powe, 1.6 assists for BBD).

Has a jumpshot?  Baby is shooting below 30% on jumpshots.

Better free throw shooter?  Again, perhaps, but last year Powe's percentage was higher, and Powe gets to the line more than twice as much as BBD, on a per minute basis (8.4 FTA/36 vs. 3.8 FTA/36.)

Powe is a much better scorer (16.0 pts per 36 vs. 8.5), shooter (53.5% vs. 36.9%) and rebounder (9.6 rebounds per 36 vs. 6.5).  Not surprisingly, Powe's PER is more than twice that of BBD (16.9 vs. 7.8 ). I don't think it's possible to argue that BBD is better.

[Chief]

Both Big Baby and Powe do certain things very well. The problem is that neither one of them has any length at defense. This is why I say play POB and Powe. Trade Baby, bench Baby, or even cut Baby because there is no room for he and Powe.

[winsomme]

I agree with EJ.  If BBD is getting showcased, it's the most ineffective showcase of all time.  I'm constantly reading on here how BBD helps the team, and I simply don't see it this season.

As Rida alluded to, 65% of his shots are jumpers, and he's shooting 29.9% on them.  BBD is averaging a terrible 6.5 rebounds per 36 minutes (by far the worst of the four bigs in the rotation), and the only guys on the team with a worse PER are Scal and Walker.

Also, while people always laud Baby for working hard, I disagree.  The only time I saw Baby work hard is when he shed 60 pounds prior to draft workouts, to improve his draft position.  Since then, he's put much of that weight back on.  I remember reading a story last season saying that the first thing the Celts did after signing P.J. was assign him to BBD as a full-time mentor, in part to get him working hard.  BBD might show a lot of hustle on the court, but I'm seeing no signs that he has a work ethic off the court.

The team should have signed Mutumbo.  BBD isn't the problem with this team, but he's a piece that should have been upgraded.  If Danny is smart, he'll let him walk in the off-season if he's offered anything more than a minimum deal by another team.

If Danny was smart he would never had resigned Tony Allen and Eddie House. Danny falls in love with certain players sometimes and won't let go of them. I think Baby might be one of those players.

I disagree completely. He was FORCED to resign TA and House after unsuccessfully upgrading the position. He was hoping he'd get a better vet that wanted a great chance at a ring for a small contract and it didn't happen.

I am a big House fan, but he is definitely struggling right now. I blame that on him being forced into playing the point. If he was allowed to play the 2 like he did much of last year he would be a dangerous weapon. He is a streak shooter. No one likes a streak shooter when he isn't on the hot streak. He at least is giving it 100%.

i'm pretty sure that Eddie played like 90% of his time at the PG position.

hey, we won a championship with him as our backup PG. that clearly is not the problem.

the problem with Eddie, as it see it, is that without Posey, he isn't getting the same open looks he got last year.

when you have Paul or Ray out there with Eddie and Posey, teams can't cover everybody. there is just too much ground to cover.

and with teams trying to collapse on all our inside stuff, we first and foremost need another shooter. it's on the top of my list anyway.

He did officially in the box score, but last year there were lots of times that PP or Ray or Posey brought the ball up the floor and Eddie went to the open 3. They had the ability to drive and kick to him for an open shot. That isn't happening this year. That combined with him truly bringing the ball up the floor has made it tough on him to get open looks.

but that's my point really....regardless of what he actually did on the floor, he was our backup PG and it was not a detriment to us. in fact, it was once he came back in in the playoffs that the bench got a big pick me up...

if PP or Ray brought the ball up last year when he was in, then why can't they do it this year?

[Roy Hobbs]

In my opinion, BBD is playing because he's been better than Powe. As simple as that.

He certainly hasn't been better scoring, rebounding, shooting, or creating contact.  Also, opposing players are shooting a significantly lower percentage against Powe than they are against Baby.

part of the problem that i see is that Powe, BBD and TA are trying to fulfill that "replace Posey by committee" concept that i never thought made sense.

thus  you have too much pressure IMO on Powe and BBD to actually score. I think their value is playing off other guys...not being the goto guy.....

so i think if we had a more reliable scorer off the bench, it would not only help the starters but it would also help the bench guys move back to their more natural skills...

I agree with that to some extent.  I also think, as I mentioned elsewhere, that part of Powe's decrease in productivity this year has been because he's already played more minutes with the inferior talented BBD this season than he did all of last season.  Who you're playing with is going to affect how well you play, and unfortunately Powe's game has suffered because he's surrounded by flotsam.

[winsomme]

In my opinion, BBD is playing because he's been better than Powe. As simple as that.

He certainly hasn't been better scoring, rebounding, shooting, or creating contact.  Also, opposing players are shooting a significantly lower percentage against Powe than they are against Baby.

part of the problem that i see is that Powe, BBD and TA are trying to fulfill that "replace Posey by committee" concept that i never thought made sense.

thus  you have too much pressure IMO on Powe and BBD to actually score. I think their value is playing off other guys...not being the goto guy.....

so i think if we had a more reliable scorer off the bench, it would not only help the starters but it would also help the bench guys move back to their more natural skills...

I agree with that to some extent.  I also think, as I mentioned elsewhere, that part of Powe's decrease in productivity this year has been because he's already played more minutes with the inferior talented BBD this season than he did all of last season.  Who you're playing with is going to affect how well you play, and unfortunately Powe's game has suffered because he's surrounded by flotsam.

I don't really know about blaming BBD for Powe's decreased effectiveness. That doesn't seem fair to me...I think both players played better playing next to KG...

the big difference with this team is no Posey and no replacement for Posey.

even if you don't attribute all of our problem to the absence of Posey, what other concrete thing can we point to as a difference between last year's and this year's team. i mean, the starters and the bench are identical to last year's other than Posey...

[Roy Hobbs]

In my opinion, BBD is playing because he's been better than Powe. As simple as that.

He certainly hasn't been better scoring, rebounding, shooting, or creating contact.  Also, opposing players are shooting a significantly lower percentage against Powe than they are against Baby.

part of the problem that i see is that Powe, BBD and TA are trying to fulfill that "replace Posey by committee" concept that i never thought made sense.

thus  you have too much pressure IMO on Powe and BBD to actually score. I think their value is playing off other guys...not being the goto guy.....

so i think if we had a more reliable scorer off the bench, it would not only help the starters but it would also help the bench guys move back to their more natural skills...

I agree with that to some extent.  I also think, as I mentioned elsewhere, that part of Powe's decrease in productivity this year has been because he's already played more minutes with the inferior talented BBD this season than he did all of last season.  Who you're playing with is going to affect how well you play, and unfortunately Powe's game has suffered because he's surrounded by flotsam.

I don't really know about blaming BBD for Powe's decreased effectiveness. That doesn't seem fair to me...I think both players played better playing next to KG...

the big difference with this team is no Posey and no replacement for Posey.

even if you don't attribute all of our problem to the absence of Posey, what other concrete thing can we point to as a difference between last year's and this year's team. i mean, the starters and the bench are identical to last year's other than Posey...

I'm not blaming BBD for Powe's ineffectiveness.  I'm noting that one of the reasons Powe is less effective is because he's playing beside less talented players, the primary culprit of whom is BBD.  If Danny had provided Doc with a better bench, or if Doc mixed the bench in more with the starters, I think you'd see Powe's numbers become more consistent.  However, because his teammates (BBD, TA, House) can't seem to play with any consistency, it's hard to expect Powe to play as well as he did last year.

[Chris]

BBD is playing out of necessity, not because he is being showcased.  The fact is, he has much more value to the C's, than any other team out there.  The reason he is playing over Powe, is because Powe's rotations have been horrendous, and lately teams have been exposing it more and more.

Powe is always a step or two late on his rotations, and teams have learned how to beat the C's defense if they are not rotating on time.  Davis is by far the best team defender (other than perhaps Scal) off the C's bench, so if they took him out of there, without replacing him with a sound defensive player, there would be even more of a revolving door to the basket when Perk and Garnett are not in there.

I think the best example (or most obvious of late) of Powes problems come from the drive by Lebron last night, where he beat his man with a crossover, and then Powe nearly fell over backwards, as Lebron crossed over again to fly past him.  This was made possible, because Powe was about two steps late in blitzing the perimeter.  If he had rotated like he was supposed to (and like Perk, Garnett and Davis do), he would have cut off Lebron's progress, by creating a wall with Lebron's man (who was actually showing Lebron to the middle where he expected help from Powe), and forced Lebron to give the ball up.  Instead, he got embarrassed.

Now, I know pointing to a move by Lebron is not really fair, but this is not a one time thing.  Powe is constantly making mistakes like that, that one was just a nice obvious one to point to.  There were at least 3 layups in the Houston game, that were directly attributed to Powe not rotating on the backside, when the frontside defender showed on the perimeter, forcing the pass.  Its a been a problem for a long time now, and unless Powe picks it up, he is going to be battling Davis (who is significantly less talented...but knows the defense) for minutes for the rest of the season.

[Roy Hobbs]

BBD is playing out of necessity, not because he is being showcased.  The fact is, he has much more value to the C's, than any other team out there.  The reason he is playing over Powe, is because Powe's rotations have been horrendous, and lately teams have been exposing it more and more.

Powe is always a step or two late on his rotations, and teams have learned how to beat the C's defense if they are not rotating on time.  Davis is by far the best team defender (other than perhaps Scal) off the C's bench, so if they took him out of there, without replacing him with a sound defensive player, there would be even more of a revolving door to the basket when Perk and Garnett are not in there.

I think the best example (or most obvious of late) of Powes problems come from the drive by Lebron last night, where he beat his man with a crossover, and then Powe nearly fell over backwards, as Lebron crossed over again to fly past him.  This was made possible, because Powe was about two steps late in blitzing the perimeter.  If he had rotated like he was supposed to (and like Perk, Garnett and Davis do), he would have cut off Lebron's progress, by creating a wall with Lebron's man (who was actually showing Lebron to the middle where he expected help from Powe), and forced Lebron to give the ball up.  Instead, he got embarrassed.

Now, I know pointing to a move by Lebron is not really fair, but this is not a one time thing.  Powe is constantly making mistakes like that, that one was just a nice obvious one to point to.  There were at least 3 layups in the Houston game, that were directly attributed to Powe not rotating on the backside, when the frontside defender showed on the perimeter, forcing the pass.  Its a been a problem for a long time now, and unless Powe picks it up, he is going to be battling Davis (who is significantly less talented...but knows the defense) for minutes for the rest of the season.

For all of Powe's glaring defensive weaknesses, and BBD's stellar contributions, the team is actually playing better defense with Powe in the game than with BBD, by nearly 6 points per 48 minutes (see here vs. here, for instance.)  Additionally, opposing players are shooting a significantly higher percentage against BBD than they are against Powe, and BBD is routinely getting outrebounded by his opponent while Powe is outrebounding his.

Now, it could be that BBD is a much better defender than Powe, but I would think that if that were the case, it would show up statistically somewhere, either in team or individual stats.

[Chris]

BBD is playing out of necessity, not because he is being showcased.  The fact is, he has much more value to the C's, than any other team out there.  The reason he is playing over Powe, is because Powe's rotations have been horrendous, and lately teams have been exposing it more and more.

Powe is always a step or two late on his rotations, and teams have learned how to beat the C's defense if they are not rotating on time.  Davis is by far the best team defender (other than perhaps Scal) off the C's bench, so if they took him out of there, without replacing him with a sound defensive player, there would be even more of a revolving door to the basket when Perk and Garnett are not in there.

I think the best example (or most obvious of late) of Powes problems come from the drive by Lebron last night, where he beat his man with a crossover, and then Powe nearly fell over backwards, as Lebron crossed over again to fly past him.  This was made possible, because Powe was about two steps late in blitzing the perimeter.  If he had rotated like he was supposed to (and like Perk, Garnett and Davis do), he would have cut off Lebron's progress, by creating a wall with Lebron's man (who was actually showing Lebron to the middle where he expected help from Powe), and forced Lebron to give the ball up.  Instead, he got embarrassed.

Now, I know pointing to a move by Lebron is not really fair, but this is not a one time thing.  Powe is constantly making mistakes like that, that one was just a nice obvious one to point to.  There were at least 3 layups in the Houston game, that were directly attributed to Powe not rotating on the backside, when the frontside defender showed on the perimeter, forcing the pass.  Its a been a problem for a long time now, and unless Powe picks it up, he is going to be battling Davis (who is significantly less talented...but knows the defense) for minutes for the rest of the season.

For all of Powe's glaring defensive weaknesses, and BBD's stellar contributions, the team is actually playing better defense with Powe in the game than with BBD, by nearly 6 points per 100 possessions.  Additionally, opposing players are shooting a significantly higher percentage against BBD than they are against Powe, and BBD is routinely getting outrebounded by his opponent while Powe is outrebounding his.

Now, it could be that BBD is a much better defender than Powe, but I would think that if that were the case, it would show up statistically somewhere, either in team or individual stats.

I don't buy the stats.  Especially since I can think of numerous times that BBD's "man" scored, because BBD was making the correct rotation, but Powe was standing around instead of rolling to BBD's wide open man at the basket.

And I think it is pretty clear, that Doc has been seeing the same thing, based on his actions and statements.

[winsomme]

In my opinion, BBD is playing because he's been better than Powe. As simple as that.

He certainly hasn't been better scoring, rebounding, shooting, or creating contact.  Also, opposing players are shooting a significantly lower percentage against Powe than they are against Baby.

part of the problem that i see is that Powe, BBD and TA are trying to fulfill that "replace Posey by committee" concept that i never thought made sense.

thus  you have too much pressure IMO on Powe and BBD to actually score. I think their value is playing off other guys...not being the goto guy.....

so i think if we had a more reliable scorer off the bench, it would not only help the starters but it would also help the bench guys move back to their more natural skills...

I agree with that to some extent.  I also think, as I mentioned elsewhere, that part of Powe's decrease in productivity this year has been because he's already played more minutes with the inferior talented BBD this season than he did all of last season.  Who you're playing with is going to affect how well you play, and unfortunately Powe's game has suffered because he's surrounded by flotsam.

I don't really know about blaming BBD for Powe's decreased effectiveness. That doesn't seem fair to me...I think both players played better playing next to KG...

the big difference with this team is no Posey and no replacement for Posey.

even if you don't attribute all of our problem to the absence of Posey, what other concrete thing can we point to as a difference between last year's and this year's team. i mean, the starters and the bench are identical to last year's other than Posey...

I'm not blaming BBD for Powe's ineffectiveness.  I'm noting that one of the reasons Powe is less effective is because he's playing beside less talented players, the primary culprit of whom is BBD.  If Danny had provided Doc with a better bench, or if Doc mixed the bench in more with the starters, I think you'd see Powe's numbers become more consistent.  However, because his teammates (BBD, TA, House) can't seem to play with any consistency, it's hard to expect Powe to play as well as he did last year.

well i guess i agree, but you can say the same thing about BBD. He also would be more effective if he wasn't playing so much with Powe....

again, the real difference isn't how Powe or BBD is playing (and i think we agree on this) the real difference is the lack of flexibility on the bench that is forcing these two guys to have to play so much together...

[Chris]

again, the real difference isn't how Powe or BBD is playing (and i think we agree on this) the real difference is the lack of flexibility on the bench that is forcing these two guys to have to play so much together...

Exactly, these two would both be much more effective, if they were back in the platoon, where Doc can play them interchangably depending on the matchup.

[cordobes]

It's very hard to evaluate defense statistically, even more when it comes to bench players. Counterpart production is a particularly flawed method of trying to do it, it's probably as meaningful as the number of blocks and steals. Basketball isn't tennis.

I think Powe is overall the better player, but he's been playing so badly lately that BBD passed him on the depth chart.

[winsomme]

again, the real difference isn't how Powe or BBD is playing (and i think we agree on this) the real difference is the lack of flexibility on the bench that is forcing these two guys to have to play so much together...

Exactly, these two would both be much more effective, if they were back in the platoon, where Doc can play them interchangably depending on the matchup.

yep. it all goes back to the "closer by committee" plan for replacing Pose. It has forced guys who were actually pretty effective for us last year into roles that are less than ideal.