CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: tonyto3690 on January 10, 2013, 03:22:53 AM
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You know how we have a first team NBA defense PG in Rondo?
You know how everyone talks about how big of an effect Bradley has on our defense?
What is the difference?
Bradley works his butt off every single defensive possession while Rondo does here and there. Yes, Rondo has way more offensive responsibility than Bradley but the lack of effort on defense is just mindblowing. I'm watching the Suns game now and have watched all season Rondo just casually jog back on defense instead of squashing the fast break. I've seen Rondo just lazily half ass run to his man instead of closing out on the shooter and contesting.
What happened to the guy who took Lebron on 1 on 1? He didn't forget how to play defense overnight. It's EFFORT.
We're talking a guy who has had about 25 triple doubles in his career. Roughly 20 of them came in prime time games. What does that tell you about him? He plays when he feels like it. He works his butt off for a full game when it suits him. Imagine if he played at about 90% of what he did against the Heat this playoffs (because 100% is unsustainable).
Before I hear excuses about a full 82 game season, look at KG. He's like 20 years older than Rondo and plays balls to the wall every single minute of every single game he has ever played. Imagine if Rondo had KGs energy and effort level. He would have a triple double every three games.
I'm tired of seeing super lazy underachieving Rondo every game that isn't against CP3/Rose/DWill/Knicks/Heat/Lakers when Rondo suddenly turns into a top 5 player whenever he plays them.
Incredibly convoluted post which I apologize for but the point is Rondos lack of consistent effort is our problem. If he played like he does in every prime time nationally shown game, we'd be WAY better off.
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Yeh his lack of effort is annoying sometimes but Edited. Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.. I would hate to see this team without him.
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Yeh his lack of effort is annoying sometimes but ****. I would hate to see this team without him.
I know. I'm not saying we're better off without him.
I'm saying we're WAY better when he plays hard which is in my opinion far less frequent than when he takes it easy.
The team the past 3 years have been way better in the playoffs. Why? Because Rondo actually starts playing hard and has 20-20, 15-10-15 games seemingly all the time. It's amazing how even his statistically numbers become way better when he works harder. Then on the other side of the ball the defense goes from good to great. Because Rondo actually contests shots instead of jsut backing off his man and fights through screens like they matter instead of jogging around them.
EDIT:
Another thing that irks me is his stat padding. I usually don't mind passing up your own layup for another person, but when you give up a good shot so another person can take a contested jumper or contested layup you're stat padding and costing your team points. This has happened a lot. He gets to the rim and automatically kicks it out even if he has a clear path for an easy layup.
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Even though you said dont mention it. I hate to say but.... 82 game season lol. Pretty hard to go out every game and just play insane. Granted players like kg lebron kobe do it among others. But they are are just freaks of nature. Saying that do some players take 'nights off' probably yeh. its an extraordinarily long season. I play 20 games in a local footy comp and against some of the lesser teams its harder to get as motivated as possible. Those big games and rivalry games... there is just a different atmosphere, no other way to explain it.
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You know how we have a first team NBA defense PG in Rondo?
You know how everyone talks about how big of an effect Bradley has on our defense?
What is the difference?
Bradley works his butt off every single defensive possession while Rondo does here and there. Yes, Rondo has way more offensive responsibility than Bradley but the lack of effort on defense is just mindblowing. I'm watching the Suns game now and have watched all season Rondo just casually jog back on defense instead of squashing the fast break. I've seen Rondo just lazily half ass run to his man instead of closing out on the shooter and contesting.
What happened to the guy who took Lebron on 1 on 1? He didn't forget how to play defense overnight. It's EFFORT.
We're talking a guy who has had about 25 triple doubles in his career. Roughly 20 of them came in prime time games. What does that tell you about him? He plays when he feels like it. He works his butt off for a full game when it suits him. Imagine if he played at about 90% of what he did against the Heat this playoffs (because 100% is unsustainable).
Before I hear excuses about a full 82 game season, look at KG. He's like 20 years older than Rondo and plays balls to the wall every single minute of every single game he has ever played. Imagine if Rondo had KGs energy and effort level. He would have a triple double every three games.
I'm tired of seeing super lazy underachieving Rondo every game that isn't against CP3/Rose/DWill/Knicks/Heat/Lakers when Rondo suddenly turns into a top 5 player whenever he plays them.
Incredibly convoluted post which I apologize for but the point is Rondos lack of consistent effort is our problem. If he played like he does in every prime time nationally shown game, we'd be WAY better off.
rondo is allowed to put effort when he wants to. he is a star and we will let him do that.
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Rondo hasn't been consistent? Yeah, I guess if you ignore the first two+ months of the season.
November:
12.4 points/4.4 rebounds/12.9 assists/.493FG%
December:
13.3 points/5.7 rebounds/10.1 assists/.485FG%
January:
14.3 points/6 rebounds/9 assists/.488FG%
Wins:
13.6 points/6 rebounds/11.7 assists/.533FG%
Losses:
12.9 points/4.3 rebounds/10.9 assists/.457FG%
National TV (5 games played):
16.2 points/8 rebounds/10.6 assists/.522FG%
So yeah, he usually does play better when he's in the spot light, but is it really that big of a difference? Two or three points more than his average is not a lot, and his assists are actually down...and I would never expect him to average 8 rebounds/game over a season. The narrative that Rondo only tries when he's on National TV or against a good team is so overblown and hasn't been true for a long time.
I won't deny that Rondo's been struggling on the defensive end this season though.
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Rondo won a championship as a starting PG when he was a baby in this league. He has lead this team, along with Pierce and Garnett, to the greatest period of basketball this franchise has seen since the 80's.
He is also really smart, and knows that ONLY THE PLAYOFFS MATTER.
That is all.
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Rondo is a great point guard. I always have stated that. I have always said also that he's not a great fit for this team. A better fit for Rondo to me are the Kings. They're a young selfish team that desperately needs a Rondo distributor. I'll do this package...
http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/6201060
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I think he is very consistent is stirring up hate from guys who don't understand his value. No one steps up to a big game anymore on the team more than him. DJ got for the big games too. Some guys play to the level of their opponents it is just the way it is folks. Great when your playing against studs and sucks eggs when your playing scrubs.
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I think he is very consistent is stirring up hate from guys who don't understand his value. No one steps up to a big game anymore on the team more than him. DJ got for the big games too. Some guys play to the level of their opponents it is just the way it is folks. Great when your playing against studs and sucks eggs when your playing scrubs.
Paul Pierce does, to say the least.
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Rondo hasn't been consistent? Yeah, I guess if you ignore the first two+ months of the season.
November:
12.4 points/4.4 rebounds/12.9 assists/.493FG%
December:
13.3 points/5.7 rebounds/10.1 assists/.485FG%
January:
14.3 points/6 rebounds/9 assists/.488FG%
Wins:
13.6 points/6 rebounds/11.7 assists/.533FG%
Losses:
12.9 points/4.3 rebounds/10.9 assists/.457FG%
National TV (5 games played):
16.2 points/8 rebounds/10.6 assists/.522FG%
So yeah, he usually does play better when he's in the spot light, but is it really that big of a difference? Two or three points more than his average is not a lot, and his assists are actually down...and I would never expect him to average 8 rebounds/game over a season. The narrative that Rondo only tries when he's on National TV or against a good team is so overblown and hasn't been true for a long time.
I won't deny that Rondo's been struggling on the defensive end this season though.
Seems fairly consistent to me.
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The original poster was referring to defensive effort more than actual stats. Something i agree with.
That said when rondo does show effort in defense and for 50/50 balls, his game rocks. An example would be when he dove on the floor against Atlanta.
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Rondo hasn't been consistent? Yeah, I guess if you ignore the first two+ months of the season.
November:
12.4 points/4.4 rebounds/12.9 assists/.493FG%
December:
13.3 points/5.7 rebounds/10.1 assists/.485FG%
January:
14.3 points/6 rebounds/9 assists/.488FG%
Wins:
13.6 points/6 rebounds/11.7 assists/.533FG%
Losses:
12.9 points/4.3 rebounds/10.9 assists/.457FG%
National TV (5 games played):
16.2 points/8 rebounds/10.6 assists/.522FG%
So yeah, he usually does play better when he's in the spot light, but is it really that big of a difference? Two or three points more than his average is not a lot, and his assists are actually down...and I would never expect him to average 8 rebounds/game over a season. The narrative that Rondo only tries when he's on National TV or against a good team is so overblown and hasn't been true for a long time.
I won't deny that Rondo's been struggling on the defensive end this season though.
Seems fairly consistent to me.
Same here.
The original poster was referring to defensive effort more than actual stats. Something i agree with.
That said when rondo does show effort in defense and for 50/50 balls, his game rocks. An example would be when he dove on the floor against Atlanta.
I don't think he's been very good but he's not as bad as some say.
Having Bradley with him makes him a lot better, as well. His strength has always been steals vs staying in front of his man.
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Rondo hasn't been consistent? Yeah, I guess if you ignore the first two+ months of the season.
November:
12.4 points/4.4 rebounds/12.9 assists/.493FG%
December:
13.3 points/5.7 rebounds/10.1 assists/.485FG%
January:
14.3 points/6 rebounds/9 assists/.488FG%
Wins:
13.6 points/6 rebounds/11.7 assists/.533FG%
Losses:
12.9 points/4.3 rebounds/10.9 assists/.457FG%
National TV (5 games played):
16.2 points/8 rebounds/10.6 assists/.522FG%
So yeah, he usually does play better when he's in the spot light, but is it really that big of a difference? Two or three points more than his average is not a lot, and his assists are actually down...and I would never expect him to average 8 rebounds/game over a season. The narrative that Rondo only tries when he's on National TV or against a good team is so overblown and hasn't been true for a long time.
I won't deny that Rondo's been struggling on the defensive end this season though.
Seems fairly consistent to me.
Same here.
The original poster was referring to defensive effort more than actual stats. Something i agree with.
That said when rondo does show effort in defense and for 50/50 balls, his game rocks. An example would be when he dove on the floor against Atlanta.
I don't think he's been very good but he's not as bad as some say.
Having Bradley with him makes him a lot better, as well. His strength has always been steals vs staying in front of his man.
Yeah he looked a little lost without Bradley alongside him. Since Bradley has come back his effort and intensity on the defensive end has jumped up a spark or two. He is still not exerting as much energy as he could be but there has been minor noticeable difference in his effort and defensive body language.
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Real GM:
The NBA’s trade deadline remains more than a month away, but rumors have begun to intensify with franchise cornerstones like Rudy Gay, DeMarcus Cousins, Zach Randolph and Rajon Rondo showing up in reports across the league.
While speculation in the media has increased, there hasn’t been a ton of substantive talk among NBA teams at this point. After a conversation with a league executive on Wednesday, the takeaway was that we may not see any significant moves for a few weeks.
“There hasn’t really been a lot of talk going around,” the executive said. “There is general chatter, but nothing serious. A lot of teams are trying to figure out what is going on with Memphis and all the names that have been thrown around.”
There will undoubtedly be more players surfacing in trade rumors as the Feb. 21 deadline approaches, but the odds of a significant trade happening in January remain long.
“This is such a deadline-driven league,” the source said.
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Nope, he was among the most consistent players in the league to start the season and then got banged up and struggled and so did the team until Bradley returned
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No, it is not.
Celtics have enough ball handling and playmaking around Rondo to over come his down or off games.
The biggest issue is still the lack of quality big men. When KG is off the floor or is having a down game, the Celtics have a bigger struggle to win.
This is not about the talents or efforts of Rondo vs. KG.
It is about the quality of the depth behind (or next) to them.
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Rondo's under a different level of scrutiny than any other player on the team. As a huge Rondo fan, I'm just going to learn to accept this fact.
When KG gives up on a play at the rim and doesn't even try to contest, we ignore it because he's KG. When Avery over commits out near half court, and the opposing player gets an easy lane to the rim, we ignore it because he's Avery Bradley.
My point is not to pick on those guys. I love the way they play, it's just to point out the absurdity of the argument that Rondo takes games off. If you are looking for it, you can find instances for every player in the league in every game they play where it looks like they took the play off.
Some day, Celtics fan's will realize how lucky we are to have such a transcendent talent as our point guard.
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I do wish Rondo was more consistent, but his inconsistency is massively overstated in the media and by fans. Rondo is not radically more inconsistent than other star players in the league; it is just "easier" to see when he has an off game because he isn't a scorer.
When Lebron or Kobe has an off game, they still score 15-20 points (because they huck up 20+ shots). Rondo doesn't score much anyway, and he is also smart enough not to keep shooting when he is having an off night, so he ends up scoring 7 points on 5 shots. To the casual observer, it "looks" like a worse game (even though Kobe going, for example, 10-25 is significantly worse for the team, even if he scores 20 points).
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I think he is very consistent is stirring up hate from guys who don't understand his value. No one steps up to a big game anymore on the team more than him. DJ got for the big games too. Some guys play to the level of their opponents it is just the way it is folks. Great when your playing against studs and sucks eggs when your playing scrubs.
Paul Pierce does, to say the least.
He really doesn't. I'd put Rondo's playoff stats up against Pierce's any day of the week. Paul scores more but that's about it.
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We're talking a guy who has had about 25 triple doubles in his career. Roughly 20 of them came in prime time games. What does that tell you about him? He plays when he feels like it. He works his butt off for a full game when it suits him. Imagine if he played at about 90% of what he did against the Heat this playoffs (because 100% is unsustainable).
Before I hear excuses about a full 82 game season, look at KG. He's like 20 years older than Rondo and plays balls to the wall every single minute of every single game he has ever played. Imagine if Rondo had KGs energy and effort level. He would have a triple double every three games.
I'm tired of seeing super lazy underachieving Rondo every game that isn't against CP3/Rose/DWill/Knicks/Heat/Lakers when Rondo suddenly turns into a top 5 player whenever he plays them.
Incredibly convoluted post which I apologize for but the point is Rondos lack of consistent effort is our problem. If he played like he does in every prime time nationally shown game, we'd be WAY better off.
You see comments like this about Rondo here all the time, and they're absolute nonsense. Some idiot national broadcaster made a stupid comment about most of Rondo's triple doubles coming on national tv and all of his detractors repeat it on a regular basis.
Why do most of Rondo's triple doubles come on nationally televised games? Because ALL PLAYOFF GAMES ARE NATIONALLY TELEVISED, and Rondo has a ton of postseason triple doubles. No other reason. Checkout the all time triple double leaders in the league, they generally get 10%-20% of their triple doubles in the playoffs. Rondo gets about 45% of his in the playoffs, by far the most among those leaders. He still gets the points and assists during the season, just not the rebounds. Which is fine, he'd never make it through a season healthy if he tried for 10 rebounds every game.
But back to my point, I'm extremely confident that I could post Rondo's game by game stats for a few randomly selected months (just the numbers, not the opponent played) and you and everyone else who makes these claims would be unable to look at the numbers and pick out which games were on national tv and which games were played against top 5 point guards. They're complete myths propagated by people who assume they're true because they read them so often.
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I think he is very consistent is stirring up hate from guys who don't understand his value. No one steps up to a big game anymore on the team more than him. DJ got for the big games too. Some guys play to the level of their opponents it is just the way it is folks. Great when your playing against studs and sucks eggs when your playing scrubs.
Paul Pierce does, to say the least.
He really doesn't. I'd put Rondo's playoff stats up against Pierce's any day of the week. Paul scores more but that's about it.
I don't know how you define "steps up". To me, Paul Pierce has always stepped up in big games, and more specifically the "big time" of big games, when Rondo seems to take a back seat.
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Rondo is going to be one of those players who isn't truely appreciated until he is gone.
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I think he is very consistent is stirring up hate from guys who don't understand his value. No one steps up to a big game anymore on the team more than him. DJ got for the big games too. Some guys play to the level of their opponents it is just the way it is folks. Great when your playing against studs and sucks eggs when your playing scrubs.
Paul Pierce does, to say the least.
He really doesn't. I'd put Rondo's playoff stats up against Pierce's any day of the week. Paul scores more but that's about it.
I don't know how you define "steps up". To me, Paul Pierce has always stepped up in big games, and more specifically the "big time" of big games, when Rondo seems to take a back seat.
Paul's career numbers in the regular season are 22/6/4, 21/6/4 in the playoffs. Rondo's regular season numbers are 11/5/8, 15/6/9 in the playoffs. I think most definitions of "steps up" would favor Rondo. In terms of raw stats in the playoffs over the last 4 years, Paul is 20/6/3, Rondo is 16/7/10. Again, Rondo's numbers look pretty good.
And while you seem to evaluate players mainly on crunch time scoring, I think you're sleeping on what Rondo did in the playoffs last year or what he's done this year. Why shouldn't he take a back seat in the past, with the big three on the team? But he's been scoring more lately than he has in the past (while still doing things like getting assists and rebounds that "don't count as stepping up).
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In ROndo 's defense, I suspect he is still playing hurt to some extent and just won't rest . He just doesn't look right out there. And he stands arounds now EVEN when he doesn't have the ball. Makes me think he is gimp or not completely healed.
Doc needs to find out Rondos problem , which I suspect is more physical and this screw up your mental game too.
ROndo probally needs to rest a week and heal up.
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Rondo most games: 70%
Rondo during primetime/big headline games: 100%
KG most games: 95%
KG during primetime/big headline games: 100%
Lebron during most games: 100%
Lebron during primetime/big headline games:100%
And the only reason KG's effort goes down during normal games is because of his age and he has to be more careful about hurting himself. Even then, his effort is consistently way higher than Rondos is.
Rondos' numbers across entire months are OBVIOUSLY going to be about the same. Im talking individual games. When he plays against the Raptors it's clearly not the same as when he plays against the Knicks.
How many times the past few years have we lost to garbage teams like the Raptors (or at least had a close game) and then blew out contenders like the Heat/Lakers/Magic/Cavs? It's all effort. Part of that was Ray/Pierce/the whole teams arrogance, but a LARGE portion of that stemmed from Rondo thinking the other team was below him and not worth his time.
Rondo exudes arrogance, which I love. But I hate how that arrogance translates into laziness against lesser teams. Whether that because he doesn't think he needs to try his hardest to win or because he doesn't value the game much and wants to save himself, he needs to put the pedal to the metal and play at least CLOSE to all out.
This lazy jog back on transition when we see Lee on a full out sprint every single time needs to stop. Lee stops a fast break by himself usually about once, maybe twice a game on pure effort and sprinting back while Rondo trots back and watches.
Our perimeter d has gotten better and as a result our defense has gotten way better. Why? Because Bradley actually fights through screens and doesn't let guys blow by him because a steal attempt is easier than trying to keep the guy in front and contesting a shot like Rondo does.
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I think he is very consistent is stirring up hate from guys who don't understand his value. No one steps up to a big game anymore on the team more than him. DJ got for the big games too. Some guys play to the level of their opponents it is just the way it is folks. Great when your playing against studs and sucks eggs when your playing scrubs.
Paul Pierce does, to say the least.
He really doesn't. I'd put Rondo's playoff stats up against Pierce's any day of the week. Paul scores more but that's about it.
I don't know how you define "steps up". To me, Paul Pierce has always stepped up in big games, and more specifically the "big time" of big games, when Rondo seems to take a back seat.
Paul's career numbers in the regular season are 22/6/4, 21/6/4 in the playoffs. Rondo's regular season numbers are 11/5/8, 15/6/9 in the playoffs. I think most definitions of "steps up" would favor Rondo. In terms of raw stats in the playoffs over the last 4 years, Paul is 20/6/3, Rondo is 16/7/10. Again, Rondo's numbers look pretty good.
And while you seem to evaluate players mainly on crunch time scoring, I think you're sleeping on what Rondo did in the playoffs last year or what he's done this year. Why shouldn't he take a back seat in the past, with the big three on the team? But he's been scoring more lately than he has in the past (while still doing things like getting assists and rebounds that "don't count as stepping up).
Kind of a stupid argument.
They both have stepped up on big games in the playoffs and in crunch time.
Throw KG's name in there as well for stepping and in crunch time.
Only thing I will say about Rondo is that in general he has repeatably had favorable matchups in the playoffs
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It's an issue that will cost us games we could have won in the regular season, sure. But in terms of issues that will be the reason why we don't win a championship, I feel that things like offensive stagnation will be more important.
To the poster that said KG goes 95% reg. season while Lebron goes 100%, I disagree. KG% goes 100% in regular season, but just for 30 minutes as opposed to 38 in the playoffs.
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You're telling me Rondo has a more favorable matchup in the playoffs being guarded by DWade, Mario Chalmers, and Lebron James than he does against Goran Dragic, Kirk Heinrich, and Kyle Lowry?
In the playoffs defenses are FAR better. Yet in the playoffs we see Rondo have a triple double every three games. We see him drop 44 points. We see 15-15-15 games. In the regular season we see 10-10 with mediocre defense where he gambles and doesn't fight through picks or hustle in transition. That is not a superstar. Playoff Rondo is a superstar. Regular season Rondo is a borderline top 5 PG.
We need superstar Rondo if we want to be a truly great team.
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I think he is very consistent is stirring up hate from guys who don't understand his value. No one steps up to a big game anymore on the team more than him. DJ got for the big games too. Some guys play to the level of their opponents it is just the way it is folks. Great when your playing against studs and sucks eggs when your playing scrubs.
Paul Pierce does, to say the least.
He really doesn't. I'd put Rondo's playoff stats up against Pierce's any day of the week. Paul scores more but that's about it.
I don't know how you define "steps up". To me, Paul Pierce has always stepped up in big games, and more specifically the "big time" of big games, when Rondo seems to take a back seat.
like when pierce fouled out in game 7of the Philadelphia series? you're stuck a bit in 2007-10 but I know Paul pierce is a gamer
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You're telling me Rondo has a more favorable matchup in the playoffs being guarded by DWade, Mario Chalmers, and Lebron James than he does against Goran Dragic, Kirk Heinrich, and Kyle Lowry?
In the playoffs defenses are FAR better. Yet in the playoffs we see Rondo have a triple double every three games. We see him drop 44 points. We see 15-15-15 games. In the regular season we see 10-10 with mediocre defense where he gambles and doesn't fight through picks or hustle in transition. That is not a superstar. Playoff Rondo is a superstar. Regular season Rondo is a borderline top 5 PG.
We need superstar Rondo if we want to be a truly great team.
And while I don't really like how Rondo takes nights off, mid-season games vs the Raptors or Bobcats aren't going to keep us from becoming a great team. Our lack of a solid back up to KG who can play center might, but not mid-season losses.
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You're telling me Rondo has a more favorable matchup in the playoffs being guarded by DWade, Mario Chalmers, and Lebron James than he does against Goran Dragic, Kirk Heinrich, and Kyle Lowry?
In the playoffs defenses are FAR better. Yet in the playoffs we see Rondo have a triple double every three games. We see him drop 44 points. We see 15-15-15 games. In the regular season we see 10-10 with mediocre defense where he gambles and doesn't fight through picks or hustle in transition. That is not a superstar. Playoff Rondo is a superstar. Regular season Rondo is a borderline top 5 PG.
We need superstar Rondo if we want to be a truly great team.
And while I don't really like how Rondo takes nights off, mid-season games vs the Raptors or Bobcats aren't going to keep us from becoming a great team. Our lack of a solid back up to KG who can play center might, but not mid-season losses.
Some of our losses this season:
Bucks 99-88
Pistons 103-83
Nets 102-97
Nets 95-83
Bucks 91-88
Rockets 101-89
Bucks 99-94
Kings 118-96
In almost all of those games Rondo didn't produce or got lit up defensively or both.
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Rondo most games: 70%
Rondo during primetime/big headline games: 100%
KG most games: 95%
KG during primetime/big headline games: 100%
Lebron during most games: 100%
Lebron during primetime/big headline games:100%
And the only reason KG's effort goes down during normal games is because of his age and he has to be more careful about hurting himself. Even then, his effort is consistently way higher than Rondos is.
Rondos' numbers across entire months are OBVIOUSLY going to be about the same. Im talking individual games. When he plays against the Raptors it's clearly not the same as when he plays against the Knicks.
How many times the past few years have we lost to garbage teams like the Raptors (or at least had a close game) and then blew out contenders like the Heat/Lakers/Magic/Cavs? It's all effort. Part of that was Ray/Pierce/the whole teams arrogance, but a LARGE portion of that stemmed from Rondo thinking the other team was below him and not worth his time.
Rondo exudes arrogance, which I love. But I hate how that arrogance translates into laziness against lesser teams. Whether that because he doesn't think he needs to try his hardest to win or because he doesn't value the game much and wants to save himself, he needs to put the pedal to the metal and play at least CLOSE to all out.
This lazy jog back on transition when we see Lee on a full out sprint every single time needs to stop. Lee stops a fast break by himself usually about once, maybe twice a game on pure effort and sprinting back while Rondo trots back and watches.
Our perimeter d has gotten better and as a result our defense has gotten way better. Why? Because Bradley actually fights through screens and doesn't let guys blow by him because a steal attempt is easier than trying to keep the guy in front and contesting a shot like Rondo does.
Paul Pierce: 93.7% effort, 94.2% of the time.
Avery Bradley: 96.4% effort, 96.6% of the time.
Jason Terry: 87.1% effort, 88.9% of the time.
for complete listings, go to mymadeupnumbers.com.
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The problem with Rondo is when he's not putting the effort forward, and still controlling the ball 90% of the shot-clock throughout the game. That's a problem.
If Pierce doesn't put the effort? Well, if he's not controlling the ball in that particular game, then it won't affect the rest of the team much.
For better or worse, dictated by how we run our offense, Rondo's impact whether good or bad in a particular day, will always be exponential to anyone else's.
When he's playing well, and our offense is really clicking, he deserves much of the praise, but when he's on, and the offense is not going, more often than not, he's the problem... it simply comes with the territory.
Now, if we were still running the offense we used during 2008, then Rondo's effort good or bad wouldn't be much of an issue.
Now defensively, that's a whole different ball game.
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The problem with Rondo is when he's not putting the effort forward, and still controlling the ball 90% of the shot-clock throughout the game. That's a problem.
If Pierce doesn't put the effort? Well, if he's not controlling the ball in that particular game, then it won't affect the rest of the team much.
For better or worse, dictated by how we run our offense, Rondo's impact whether good or bad in a particular day, will always be exponential to anyone else's.
When he's playing well, and our offense is really clicking, he deserves much of the praise, but when he's on, and the offense is not going, more often than not, he's the problem... it simply comes with the territory.
Now, if we were still running the offense we used during 2008, then Rondo's effort good or bad wouldn't be much of an issue.
Now defensively, that's a whole different ball game.
Yeah basically Rondo carries a heavier load and responsibility.
Pierces lack of effort can often be looked at as more of a bad shooting night or shot just not falling.
Rondo isn't exactly a scorer so when he isn't having a good game its looked at more as an effort issue than just having a bad game.
Rondo will get more of the blame since the ball is in his hands more and he needs to do.more just like Pierce used to get ripped on in his early stages for similar things
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The majority of my qualms with his effort are with his defense, not his offense.
I think he actually is lazy on defense to save himself to play offense.
The problems on offense stem when he isn't aggressive and doesn't attack and just tries to sit at the top of the key and set up a bunch of screens for someone and then we're back to watching Ray run around in circles for 20 seconds and have KG/Pierce shoot a desperation contested shot.
I'd rather just give the ball to Jeff Green every set and have him iso/post up than watch Rondo just sit there with the ball doing nothing which is infuriating because he can get past pretty much anyone in the NBA.
Lack of aggressiveness on offense, lack of effort on defense.
If Rondo played to his ability like he does in the playoffs, we wouldn't be a 6-8 seed team in the playoffs. We would be the #2 seed this year and a case could be argued that we might even be able to snatch the #1 seed from Miami. You really think that having homecourt over the Knicks/Heat/etc. wouldn't be a huge help in the playoffs this year?
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You're telling me Rondo has a more favorable matchup in the playoffs being guarded by DWade, Mario Chalmers, and Lebron James than he does against Goran Dragic, Kirk Heinrich, and Kyle Lowry?
In the playoffs defenses are FAR better. Yet in the playoffs we see Rondo have a triple double every three games. We see him drop 44 points. We see 15-15-15 games. In the regular season we see 10-10 with mediocre defense where he gambles and doesn't fight through picks or hustle in transition. That is not a superstar. Playoff Rondo is a superstar. Regular season Rondo is a borderline top 5 PG.
We need superstar Rondo if we want to be a truly great team.
And while I don't really like how Rondo takes nights off, mid-season games vs the Raptors or Bobcats aren't going to keep us from becoming a great team. Our lack of a solid back up to KG who can play center might, but not mid-season losses.
Some of our losses this season:
Bucks 99-88
Pistons 103-83
Nets 102-97
Nets 95-83
Bucks 91-88
Rockets 101-89
Bucks 99-94
Kings 118-96
In almost all of those games Rondo didn't produce or got lit up defensively or both.
Was he the only one with a bad game? Was he dealing with injuries(like the Kings game), how do you know other players didn't take some of these seriously?
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Rondo most games: 70%
Rondo during primetime/big headline games: 100%
KG most games: 95%
KG during primetime/big headline games: 100%
Lebron during most games: 100%
Lebron during primetime/big headline games:100%
And the only reason KG's effort goes down during normal games is because of his age and he has to be more careful about hurting himself. Even then, his effort is consistently way higher than Rondos is.
Rondos' numbers across entire months are OBVIOUSLY going to be about the same. Im talking individual games. When he plays against the Raptors it's clearly not the same as when he plays against the Knicks.
How many times the past few years have we lost to garbage teams like the Raptors (or at least had a close game) and then blew out contenders like the Heat/Lakers/Magic/Cavs? It's all effort. Part of that was Ray/Pierce/the whole teams arrogance, but a LARGE portion of that stemmed from Rondo thinking the other team was below him and not worth his time.
Rondo exudes arrogance, which I love. But I hate how that arrogance translates into laziness against lesser teams. Whether that because he doesn't think he needs to try his hardest to win or because he doesn't value the game much and wants to save himself, he needs to put the pedal to the metal and play at least CLOSE to all out.
This lazy jog back on transition when we see Lee on a full out sprint every single time needs to stop. Lee stops a fast break by himself usually about once, maybe twice a game on pure effort and sprinting back while Rondo trots back and watches.
Our perimeter d has gotten better and as a result our defense has gotten way better. Why? Because Bradley actually fights through screens and doesn't let guys blow by him because a steal attempt is easier than trying to keep the guy in front and contesting a shot like Rondo does.
Paul Pierce: 93.7% effort, 94.2% of the time.
Avery Bradley: 96.4% effort, 96.6% of the time.
Jason Terry: 87.1% effort, 88.9% of the time.
for complete listings, go to mymadeupnumbers.com.
My thoughts exactly, lol. tp
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Rondo misses Ray Allen :P
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I think he is very consistent is stirring up hate from guys who don't understand his value. No one steps up to a big game anymore on the team more than him. DJ got for the big games too. Some guys play to the level of their opponents it is just the way it is folks. Great when your playing against studs and sucks eggs when your playing scrubs.
Paul Pierce does, to say the least.
He really doesn't. I'd put Rondo's playoff stats up against Pierce's any day of the week. Paul scores more but that's about it.
I don't know how you define "steps up". To me, Paul Pierce has always stepped up in big games, and more specifically the "big time" of big games, when Rondo seems to take a back seat.
Paul's career numbers in the regular season are 22/6/4, 21/6/4 in the playoffs. Rondo's regular season numbers are 11/5/8, 15/6/9 in the playoffs. I think most definitions of "steps up" would favor Rondo. In terms of raw stats in the playoffs over the last 4 years, Paul is 20/6/3, Rondo is 16/7/10. Again, Rondo's numbers look pretty good.
And while you seem to evaluate players mainly on crunch time scoring, I think you're sleeping on what Rondo did in the playoffs last year or what he's done this year. Why shouldn't he take a back seat in the past, with the big three on the team? But he's been scoring more lately than he has in the past (while still doing things like getting assists and rebounds that "don't count as stepping up).
Kind of a stupid argument.
They both have stepped up on big games in the playoffs and in crunch time.
Throw KG's name in there as well for stepping and in crunch time.
Only thing I will say about Rondo is that in general he has repeatably had favorable matchups in the playoffs
That's not really true. Most of our playoff games are against top defensive teams, and most of those teams are better than average at limiting production from opposing point guards.
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You're telling me Rondo has a more favorable matchup in the playoffs being guarded by DWade, Mario Chalmers, and Lebron James than he does against Goran Dragic, Kirk Heinrich, and Kyle Lowry?
In the playoffs defenses are FAR better. Yet in the playoffs we see Rondo have a triple double every three games. We see him drop 44 points. We see 15-15-15 games. In the regular season we see 10-10 with mediocre defense where he gambles and doesn't fight through picks or hustle in transition. That is not a superstar. Playoff Rondo is a superstar. Regular season Rondo is a borderline top 5 PG.
We need superstar Rondo if we want to be a truly great team.
And while I don't really like how Rondo takes nights off, mid-season games vs the Raptors or Bobcats aren't going to keep us from becoming a great team. Our lack of a solid back up to KG who can play center might, but not mid-season losses.
Some of our losses this season:
Bucks 99-88
Pistons 103-83
Nets 102-97
Nets 95-83
Bucks 91-88
Rockets 101-89
Bucks 99-94
Kings 118-96
In almost all of those games Rondo didn't produce or got lit up defensively or both.
Don't agree with blaming Rondo for some of those losses...
Bucks & Pistons game: got lit up but still produced his season averages, and the team as a whole sucked (especially the starters)
Nets: didn't play -out with ankle injury
Nets: only played two quarters due to ejection, but his fault
Bucks: didn't play -serving 1 game suspension
Rockets: had a line of 15/13/4/.462FG% and Lin played terribly...it was Greg Smith and Chandler Parsons who burned us
Bucks: played badly
Kings: played badly
And just as easily as you can name bad games Rondo had where we lost, I can name five more where he played well, was not on National TV or against a good opponent, and we won:
Nov 7th vs Washington (without Wall)
18pts, 14ast, 4rbs, .636FG%
Nov 12th vs Chicago (without Rose)
20pts, 10asts, 9rbs, .625FG%
Nov 25th vs Orlando (below .500 team)
15pts, 16ast, 10rbs, .467FG%
Dec 5th vs Minnesota (without Rubio)
17pts, 11ast, 1rb, .545FG%
Dec 19th vs Cleveland (below .500 team)
20pts, 8ast, 4rbs, .636FG%
He also had his highest assist night (20) against Toronto, and two of his crappiest games against the leagues top teams:
Dec 15th vs San Antonio
6pts, 9ast, 5rbs, .429FG%
Dec 27th vs LAC
10pts, 6ast, 5rbs, .333FG%
So, it's just not true that Rondo only shows up in big games, or against big name opponents. The effort level is there most of the time, it's just when it's not it's so noticeable because of the effect he has on both ends of the court.
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You're telling me Rondo has a more favorable matchup in the playoffs being guarded by DWade, Mario Chalmers, and Lebron James than he does against Goran Dragic, Kirk Heinrich, and Kyle Lowry?
In the playoffs defenses are FAR better. Yet in the playoffs we see Rondo have a triple double every three games. We see him drop 44 points. We see 15-15-15 games. In the regular season we see 10-10 with mediocre defense where he gambles and doesn't fight through picks or hustle in transition. That is not a superstar. Playoff Rondo is a superstar. Regular season Rondo is a borderline top 5 PG.
We need superstar Rondo if we want to be a truly great team.
And while I don't really like how Rondo takes nights off, mid-season games vs the Raptors or Bobcats aren't going to keep us from becoming a great team. Our lack of a solid back up to KG who can play center might, but not mid-season losses.
Some of our losses this season:
Bucks 99-88
Pistons 103-83
Nets 102-97
Nets 95-83
Bucks 91-88
Rockets 101-89
Bucks 99-94
Kings 118-96
In almost all of those games Rondo didn't produce or got lit up defensively or both.
For starters your list contains 2 games Rondo missed, one that he only played in the first half and one where he was hobbling up and down the court because he was injured.
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The problem with Rondo is when he's not putting the effort forward, and still controlling the ball 90% of the shot-clock throughout the game. That's a problem.
If Pierce doesn't put the effort? Well, if he's not controlling the ball in that particular game, then it won't affect the rest of the team much.
For better or worse, dictated by how we run our offense, Rondo's impact whether good or bad in a particular day, will always be exponential to anyone else's.
The thing is when PP (or KG or anyone else) isn't putting in the effort most people call that "Rondo not putting in the effort". Rondo's the guy stuck trying to make something happen with dwindling options. Same thing when the shots aren't dropping for guys.
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Another problem with Rondo's effort(or lack) on offense is if shots are falling he had a great game with say 13+ ast. But if guys miss wide open shots he "wasn't aggresive enough".
Downside to being a passing pg.
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You're telling me Rondo has a more favorable matchup in the playoffs being guarded by DWade, Mario Chalmers, and Lebron James than he does against Goran Dragic, Kirk Heinrich, and Kyle Lowry?
In the playoffs defenses are FAR better. Yet in the playoffs we see Rondo have a triple double every three games. We see him drop 44 points. We see 15-15-15 games. In the regular season we see 10-10 with mediocre defense where he gambles and doesn't fight through picks or hustle in transition. That is not a superstar. Playoff Rondo is a superstar. Regular season Rondo is a borderline top 5 PG.
We need superstar Rondo if we want to be a truly great team.
And while I don't really like how Rondo takes nights off, mid-season games vs the Raptors or Bobcats aren't going to keep us from becoming a great team. Our lack of a solid back up to KG who can play center might, but not mid-season losses.
Some of our losses this season:
Bucks 99-88
Pistons 103-83
Nets 102-97
Nets 95-83
Bucks 91-88
Rockets 101-89
Bucks 99-94
Kings 118-96
In almost all of those games Rondo didn't produce or got lit up defensively or both.
This has to be one of the most egregious examples of cherry picking stats to support an argument ever seen on CB.
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My question to those who are unhappy with Rondo, and more specifically his inconsistent level of play is quite simple.
Do you realize if Rondo played the way many want, on a night-in-night-out basis, he would likely miss numerous games due to injury?
I would like him to be able to better adapt his style of play to more of a "just anther cog in the wheel" style when he is not going full-out, but have little problem with him coasting at times. Rondo is a slightly built guy, we don't need him being a hero every night. Unless we want a DRose situation.
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My question to those who are unhappy with Rondo, and more specifically his inconsistent level of play is quite simple.
Do you realize if Rondo played the way many want, on a night-in-night-out basis, he would likely miss numerous games due to injury?
I would like him to be able to better adapt his style of play to more of a "just anther cog in the wheel" style when he is not going full-out, but have little problem with him coasting at times. Rondo is a slightly built guy, we don't need him being a hero every night. Unless we want a DRose situation.
I agree. He isn't a very thick guy and I don't think he could be playoff Rondo for a whole season.
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Another one of these threads, really? The endless Rondo bashing around here has gotten so old I barely even bother reading these forums anymore. It's a tired, pointless discussion. Find something new to talk about.
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I completely agree. I think Rondo is a great player and I can't take anything away from his records and postseason performances. But I don't know how anyone can say he approaches every game with the same intensity and focus... it just isn't true.
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Another one of these threads, really? The endless Rondo bashing around here has gotten so old I barely even bother reading these forums anymore. It's a tired, pointless discussion. Find something new to talk about.
The OP is 100% right. And those that defend Rondo's defensive laziness are just blind. Saying that he's pacing himself for an 82-game season, and that he might get hurt if he tried hard all the time? Laughable.
The guy is in his physical prime. He's playing, what 38 minutes a game (a guess)? Guys his age play HOURS of basketball every day. 38 minutes isn't that big a deal.
I would even say that Rondo could pace himself better and it wouldn't upset me, as long as he continued to play SMART defense.
When Rondo just turns his back on defense, doesn't box out, and just lazily walks around it's just another skilled offensive guy getting by on that reputation and not playing a true, complete game on both ends of the court.
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I completely agree. I think Rondo is a great player and I can't take anything away from his records and postseason performances. But I don't know how anyone can say he approaches every game with the same intensity and focus... it just isn't true.
only a handful of guys in the league do? Even kg hasn't brought his trademark intensity and focus to every game this season...sorry
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I think this thread is very confusing to a lot of you. The Op is simply stating Rondo is too inconsistent how he plays the game, not inconsistent on how he put up numbers. Stats are so misleading. I have said that many times. We think just because Rondo Puts up 16-15-20 he had a good game. Statistcally yes he did, but what happened during the time achieving such #'s really is the true matter.
You could make the perfect argument for Kobe this year. He's putting up great statistcal #'s but yet his team still struggles to play with consistency & chemistry to win games.
The biggest difference I see with Rondo playing opposed to not playing is "SPEED". The Celtics offensively & defensively become suddenly much faster. Reason for this is, there is no designated distributor on the floor to look for after rebounding or broken plays. They get into sets much quicker, to be honest I think they run only 3 plays when Rondo is not playing. To me that is keeping the game simple & it makes the players comfortable. When Rondo is playing to many plays are ran, & most of the players look confused, so then it take too much time to execute, resulting in a bad possession. This happens constantly, way too often.
In the Knicks game & even previous Rondoless games we have seen how different, comfortable & more to life the complimentary players become. Rondo is great, but we don't need his services if he's not going to keep it simple.
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I think this thread is very confusing to a lot of you. The Op is simply stating Rondo is too inconsistent how he plays the game, not inconsistent on how he put up numbers. Stats are so misleading. I have said that many times. We think just because Rondo Puts up 16-15-20 he had a good game. Statistcally yes he did, but what happened during the time achieving such #'s really is the true matter.
You could make the perfect argument for Kobe this year. He's putting up great statistcal #'s but yet his team still struggles to play with consistency & chemistry to win games.
The biggest difference I see with Rondo playing opposed to not playing is "SPEED". The Celtics offensively & defensively become suddenly much faster. Reason for this is, there is no designated distributor on the floor to look for after rebounding or broken plays. They get into sets much quicker, to be honest I think they run only 3 plays when Rondo is not playing. To me that is keeping the game simple & it makes the players comfortable. When Rondo is playing to many plays are ran, & most of the players look confused, so then it take too much time to execute, resulting in a bad possession. This happens constantly, way too often.
In the Knicks game & even previous Rondoless games we have seen how different, comfortable & more to life the complimentary players become. Rondo is great, but we don't need his services if he's not going to keep it simple.
Not surprisingly, the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's in the game than when he's on the bench. The thread's not that confusing. People read/hear things about Rondo, watch the game looking for those things, see them happen at times and assume that they're true. Unfortunately, the numbers don't necessarily bear out the claims.
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I think this thread is very confusing to a lot of you. The Op is simply stating Rondo is too inconsistent how he plays the game, not inconsistent on how he put up numbers. Stats are so misleading. I have said that many times. We think just because Rondo Puts up 16-15-20 he had a good game. Statistcally yes he did, but what happened during the time achieving such #'s really is the true matter.
You could make the perfect argument for Kobe this year. He's putting up great statistcal #'s but yet his team still struggles to play with consistency & chemistry to win games.
The biggest difference I see with Rondo playing opposed to not playing is "SPEED". The Celtics offensively & defensively become suddenly much faster. Reason for this is, there is no designated distributor on the floor to look for after rebounding or broken plays. They get into sets much quicker, to be honest I think they run only 3 plays when Rondo is not playing. To me that is keeping the game simple & it makes the players comfortable. When Rondo is playing to many plays are ran, & most of the players look confused, so then it take too much time to execute, resulting in a bad possession. This happens constantly, way too often.
In the Knicks game & even previous Rondoless games we have seen how different, comfortable & more to life the complimentary players become. Rondo is great, but we don't need his services if he's not going to keep it simple.
Not surprisingly, the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's in the game than when he's on the bench. The thread's not that confusing. People read/hear things about Rondo, watch the game looking for those things, see them happen at times and assume that they're true. Unfortunately, the numbers don't necessarily bear out the claims.
I absolutely disagree with the OP that our "biggest issue" has anything to do with Rondo.
However, our team looks night and day different when Rondo is playing aggressively versus when he's not. It's very frustrating to watch as a fan, because sometimes Rondo essentially holds the ball around the perimeter for games at a time. That seems to bog down our offense, as opposed to when Rondo is actively attacking and making things happen. It's been an issue for years.
Of course, all players go through games where they're less aggressive, but it's a lot more noticeable with Rondo, who (1) has the capability to attack, and (2) is the most important part of our offense.
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I think this thread is very confusing to a lot of you. The Op is simply stating Rondo is too inconsistent how he plays the game, not inconsistent on how he put up numbers. Stats are so misleading. I have said that many times. We think just because Rondo Puts up 16-15-20 he had a good game. Statistcally yes he did, but what happened during the time achieving such #'s really is the true matter.
You could make the perfect argument for Kobe this year. He's putting up great statistcal #'s but yet his team still struggles to play with consistency & chemistry to win games.
The biggest difference I see with Rondo playing opposed to not playing is "SPEED". The Celtics offensively & defensively become suddenly much faster. Reason for this is, there is no designated distributor on the floor to look for after rebounding or broken plays. They get into sets much quicker, to be honest I think they run only 3 plays when Rondo is not playing. To me that is keeping the game simple & it makes the players comfortable. When Rondo is playing to many plays are ran, & most of the players look confused, so then it take too much time to execute, resulting in a bad possession. This happens constantly, way too often.
In the Knicks game & even previous Rondoless games we have seen how different, comfortable & more to life the complimentary players become. Rondo is great, but we don't need his services if he's not going to keep it simple.
Not surprisingly, the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's in the game than when he's on the bench. The thread's not that confusing. People read/hear things about Rondo, watch the game looking for those things, see them happen at times and assume that they're true. Unfortunately, the numbers don't necessarily bear out the claims.
I absolutely disagree with the OP that our "biggest issue" has anything to do with Rondo.
However, our team looks night and day different when Rondo is playing aggressively versus when he's not. It's very frustrating to watch as a fan, because sometimes Rondo essentially holds the ball around the perimeter for games at a time. That seems to bog down our offense, as opposed to when Rondo is actively attacking and making things happen. It's been an issue for years.
Of course, all players go through games where they're less aggressive, but it's a lot more noticeable with Rondo, who (1) has the capability to attack, and (2) is the most important part of our offense.
While it's true that all players (including Rondo) and all teams go through times when they're less aggressive, I still say that when some of the other players (or the team as a whole) are going through less aggressive stretches it's generally classified as Rondo not being aggressive.
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8 and 8 from Rondo was still an ESPN highlight.
just saying...
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I think this thread is very confusing to a lot of you. The Op is simply stating Rondo is too inconsistent how he plays the game, not inconsistent on how he put up numbers. Stats are so misleading. I have said that many times. We think just because Rondo Puts up 16-15-20 he had a good game. Statistcally yes he did, but what happened during the time achieving such #'s really is the true matter.
You could make the perfect argument for Kobe this year. He's putting up great statistcal #'s but yet his team still struggles to play with consistency & chemistry to win games.
The biggest difference I see with Rondo playing opposed to not playing is "SPEED". The Celtics offensively & defensively become suddenly much faster. Reason for this is, there is no designated distributor on the floor to look for after rebounding or broken plays. They get into sets much quicker, to be honest I think they run only 3 plays when Rondo is not playing. To me that is keeping the game simple & it makes the players comfortable. When Rondo is playing to many plays are ran, & most of the players look confused, so then it take too much time to execute, resulting in a bad possession. This happens constantly, way too often.
In the Knicks game & even previous Rondoless games we have seen how different, comfortable & more to life the complimentary players become. Rondo is great, but we don't need his services if he's not going to keep it simple.
Not surprisingly, the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's in the game than when he's on the bench. The thread's not that confusing. People read/hear things about Rondo, watch the game looking for those things, see them happen at times and assume that they're true. Unfortunately, the numbers don't necessarily bear out the claims.
I absolutely disagree with the OP that our "biggest issue" has anything to do with Rondo.
However, our team looks night and day different when Rondo is playing aggressively versus when he's not. It's very frustrating to watch as a fan, because sometimes Rondo essentially holds the ball around the perimeter for games at a time. That seems to bog down our offense, as opposed to when Rondo is actively attacking and making things happen. It's been an issue for years.
Of course, all players go through games where they're less aggressive, but it's a lot more noticeable with Rondo, who (1) has the capability to attack, and (2) is the most important part of our offense.
While it's true that all players (including Rondo) and all teams go through times when they're less aggressive, I still say that when some of the other players (or the team as a whole) are going through less aggressive stretches it's generally classified as Rondo not being aggressive.
Offensively, I agree with this 100%. I can't even count high enough to count the amount of trips down the floor that I have seen:
1.) Rondo run a one man break and have to pull up because of the defense and wait for everyone to get up the floor to run a set play. This usually has Rondo bringing the ball back out and dribbling waiting for an open man to pass to. But this is perceived as Rondo passivity.
2.) Rondo handling the ball at the top of the key waiting to pass the ball with absolutely zero off the ball movement by anyone else on the court in green. If the other players aren't going to move how is that Rondo's fault for dribbling at the top of the key?
3. Rondo handling the ball at the top of the key waiting to pass the ball to only one man running through various screens attempting to get himself open and if he doesn't, just continuing to run through more screens until he is open or Rondo has to junk the play and do something.
Offensively, Rondo gets way to much blame for the whole team's lack of energy or poor play development simply because he has the ball in his hands. If Pierce brought the ball up, initiated the offense, had no one moving around looking to get open and then after 15 seconds Pierce went iso, this blog would be going crazy complaining about Pierce's ball hogging and love of an iso play instead of the fact his team mates aren't creating anything by moving off the ball.
Defensively, and remember I love Rondo and am probably one of his biggest fans here, but he does get very passive sometimes and gambles way too much. I give him a pass because he expends so much energy rebounding defensively, running the ball up the court and running the offense. So if he slacks off at times defensively, during the regular season, I don't care.
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I want to make a point about Rondo's apparent lack of defensive effort; I think a big thing is that his on ball defense is being compared to Avery Bradley's. I have to say that I literally don't think there's another point guard in the league who pressures the ball handler and fights through screens like Avery Bradley. There certainly aren't any other elite level offensive point guards who do--not Chris Paul, not Russell Westbrook, not Tony Parker, not Derrick Rose, not Kyrie Irving, not Steph Curry . . .
I submit that not only is Rondo actually a superior on ball defender to those other guys listed, but he's also more disruptive off the ball than any of those players (I might put Paul and Westbrook close to in Rondo's class).
Back to Bradley, it's what is so impressive about his D. That kind of ball pressure is simply not something we are used to seeing in an NBA basketball game. When he is playing next to Rondo, the automatic reaction is; "look how lazy Rondo is. He doesn't play defense like Bradley." But, nobody else in the league plays defense like Bradley.
Rondo's a great defender, and having Avery back makes him even better. It allows him to do more of the things defensively that he excels at like jumping passing lanes and helping and trapping without having to be the guy who is guarding the ball and fighting off bone crushing screens all game.
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Yes, but Pierce, Green, Bass, and Lee can all lack effort at times and it's fine -___-
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I think this thread is very confusing to a lot of you. The Op is simply stating Rondo is too inconsistent how he plays the game, not inconsistent on how he put up numbers. Stats are so misleading. I have said that many times. We think just because Rondo Puts up 16-15-20 he had a good game. Statistcally yes he did, but what happened during the time achieving such #'s really is the true matter.
You could make the perfect argument for Kobe this year. He's putting up great statistcal #'s but yet his team still struggles to play with consistency & chemistry to win games.
The biggest difference I see with Rondo playing opposed to not playing is "SPEED". The Celtics offensively & defensively become suddenly much faster. Reason for this is, there is no designated distributor on the floor to look for after rebounding or broken plays. They get into sets much quicker, to be honest I think they run only 3 plays when Rondo is not playing. To me that is keeping the game simple & it makes the players comfortable. When Rondo is playing to many plays are ran, & most of the players look confused, so then it take too much time to execute, resulting in a bad possession. This happens constantly, way too often.
In the Knicks game & even previous Rondoless games we have seen how different, comfortable & more to life the complimentary players become. Rondo is great, but we don't need his services if he's not going to keep it simple.
Not surprisingly, the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's in the game than when he's on the bench. The thread's not that confusing. People read/hear things about Rondo, watch the game looking for those things, see them happen at times and assume that they're true. Unfortunately, the numbers don't necessarily bear out the claims.
I absolutely disagree with the OP that our "biggest issue" has anything to do with Rondo.
However, our team looks night and day different when Rondo is playing aggressively versus when he's not. It's very frustrating to watch as a fan, because sometimes Rondo essentially holds the ball around the perimeter for games at a time. That seems to bog down our offense, as opposed to when Rondo is actively attacking and making things happen. It's been an issue for years.
Of course, all players go through games where they're less aggressive, but it's a lot more noticeable with Rondo, who (1) has the capability to attack, and (2) is the most important part of our offense.
While it's true that all players (including Rondo) and all teams go through times when they're less aggressive, I still say that when some of the other players (or the team as a whole) are going through less aggressive stretches it's generally classified as Rondo not being aggressive.
Offensively, I agree with this 100%. I can't even count high enough to count the amount of trips down the floor that I have seen:
1.) Rondo run a one man break and have to pull up because of the defense and wait for everyone to get up the floor to run a set play. This usually has Rondo bringing the ball back out and dribbling waiting for an open man to pass to. But this is perceived as Rondo passivity.
2.) Rondo handling the ball at the top of the key waiting to pass the ball with absolutely zero off the ball movement by anyone else on the court in green. If the other players aren't going to move how is that Rondo's fault for dribbling at the top of the key?
3. Rondo handling the ball at the top of the key waiting to pass the ball to only one man running through various screens attempting to get himself open and if he doesn't, just continuing to run through more screens until he is open or Rondo has to junk the play and do something.
Offensively, Rondo gets way to much blame for the whole team's lack of energy or poor play development simply because he has the ball in his hands. If Pierce brought the ball up, initiated the offense, had no one moving around looking to get open and then after 15 seconds Pierce went iso, this blog would be going crazy complaining about Pierce's ball hogging and love of an iso play instead of the fact his team mates aren't creating anything by moving off the ball.
Defensively, and remember I love Rondo and am probably one of his biggest fans here, but he does get very passive sometimes and gambles way too much. I give him a pass because he expends so much energy rebounding defensively, running the ball up the court and running the offense. So if he slacks off at times defensively, during the regular season, I don't care.
Point 2 is spot-on.
Your analysis of his defense is well-put. As long as he performs in the playoffs, I'm alright with him taking one or two possessions off.
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I think this thread is very confusing to a lot of you. The Op is simply stating Rondo is too inconsistent how he plays the game, not inconsistent on how he put up numbers. Stats are so misleading. I have said that many times. We think just because Rondo Puts up 16-15-20 he had a good game. Statistcally yes he did, but what happened during the time achieving such #'s really is the true matter.
You could make the perfect argument for Kobe this year. He's putting up great statistcal #'s but yet his team still struggles to play with consistency & chemistry to win games.
The biggest difference I see with Rondo playing opposed to not playing is "SPEED". The Celtics offensively & defensively become suddenly much faster. Reason for this is, there is no designated distributor on the floor to look for after rebounding or broken plays. They get into sets much quicker, to be honest I think they run only 3 plays when Rondo is not playing. To me that is keeping the game simple & it makes the players comfortable. When Rondo is playing to many plays are ran, & most of the players look confused, so then it take too much time to execute, resulting in a bad possession. This happens constantly, way too often.
In the Knicks game & even previous Rondoless games we have seen how different, comfortable & more to life the complimentary players become. Rondo is great, but we don't need his services if he's not going to keep it simple.
Not surprisingly, the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's in the game than when he's on the bench. The thread's not that confusing. People read/hear things about Rondo, watch the game looking for those things, see them happen at times and assume that they're true. Unfortunately, the numbers don't necessarily bear out the claims.
I absolutely disagree with the OP that our "biggest issue" has anything to do with Rondo.
However, our team looks night and day different when Rondo is playing aggressively versus when he's not. It's very frustrating to watch as a fan, because sometimes Rondo essentially holds the ball around the perimeter for games at a time. That seems to bog down our offense, as opposed to when Rondo is actively attacking and making things happen. It's been an issue for years.
Of course, all players go through games where they're less aggressive, but it's a lot more noticeable with Rondo, who (1) has the capability to attack, and (2) is the most important part of our offense.
While it's true that all players (including Rondo) and all teams go through times when they're less aggressive, I still say that when some of the other players (or the team as a whole) are going through less aggressive stretches it's generally classified as Rondo not being aggressive.
Offensively, I agree with this 100%. I can't even count high enough to count the amount of trips down the floor that I have seen:
1.) Rondo run a one man break and have to pull up because of the defense and wait for everyone to get up the floor to run a set play. This usually has Rondo bringing the ball back out and dribbling waiting for an open man to pass to. But this is perceived as Rondo passivity.
2.) Rondo handling the ball at the top of the key waiting to pass the ball with absolutely zero off the ball movement by anyone else on the court in green. If the other players aren't going to move how is that Rondo's fault for dribbling at the top of the key?
3. Rondo handling the ball at the top of the key waiting to pass the ball to only one man running through various screens attempting to get himself open and if he doesn't, just continuing to run through more screens until he is open or Rondo has to junk the play and do something.
Offensively, Rondo gets way to much blame for the whole team's lack of energy or poor play development simply because he has the ball in his hands. If Pierce brought the ball up, initiated the offense, had no one moving around looking to get open and then after 15 seconds Pierce went iso, this blog would be going crazy complaining about Pierce's ball hogging and love of an iso play instead of the fact his team mates aren't creating anything by moving off the ball.
Defensively, and remember I love Rondo and am probably one of his biggest fans here, but he does get very passive sometimes and gambles way too much. I give him a pass because he expends so much energy rebounding defensively, running the ball up the court and running the offense. So if he slacks off at times defensively, during the regular season, I don't care.
1. And what's the problem with that? If Rondo is on the break, he is usually the guy closest to our basket to begin with, and he's the fastest on our team. I don't see a problem with that. I see no problem with him pushing the ball and not finding anything, at worst, we get an early start to our offense. This excuse doesn't fly. Also, more often than not, he has an open man waiting at the 3-point land, he very rarely gives that pass, holds the ball waiting to see if someone catches up, if no one arrives he then brings the ball back when we had a wide-open shot available all along. Sometimes it works because it leads to an easy basket, but we lose a lot of good opportunities also.
2. You do realize that Rondo is calling the plays right? Often redirecting traffic, which is fine... until you realize he's spent 5 seconds doing so, then add the 8 seconds he spends walking the ball up the floor which leads to poor possessions.
3. An extension of #2, if the play isn't there, he needs to make a quicker decision to go for a different option.
But don't take my word for it, take Doc's who's made similar complaints about Rondo himself, and I know you have very high regard to Doc's opinion.
The blame is more than adequate, he rarely uses his speed, and walking the ball up the floor with little ball movement will always be a recipe for disaster.
I don't know why it took Terry to get on the floor against the Suns for us to finally push the ball, and run a simple pick that lead into a Terry penetration for a good layup... something that Rondo should be a master in, but rarely goes for it.
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ROndo's lax momnets of passiveness, holding the ball dribbling away the secs, walking the ballup court , letting the defense get set...basically not moving the offensive , standing around with his finger in his ear., waitng for something ...a bad telegraphed pass is the result or a turnover. LAZY play is what it is. Unless he is Hurt..then he should sit.
this type of play is what leads to the inconsistent play .
Rondo is liability when he is standing around , not moving the offense... ::)
I would rather have Barbosa/Lee in there , if ROndo 's brain is wired for agressive play on those 50 -50 nights when your not sure which Rono is gonna show up.
He'll make a spectaular play , then not move the ball for 7 minute and throw it away 3 times .
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Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?
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ROndo's lax momnets of passiveness, holding the ball dribbling away the secs, walking the ballup court , letting the defense get set...basically not moving the offensive , standing around with his finger in his ear., waitng for something ...a bad telegraphed pass is the result or a turnover. LAZY play is what it is. Unless he is Hurt..then he should sit.
this type of play is what leads to the inconsistent play .
Rondo is liability when he is standing around , not moving the offense... ::)
I would rather have Barbosa/Lee in there , if ROndo 's brain is wired for agressive play on those 50 -50 nights when your not sure which Rono is gonna show up.
He'll make a spectaular play , then not move the ball for 7 minute and throw it away 3 times .
People always complain about this, but how often does it actually happen? Has anyone ever tried to count how many times in a game Rondo actually does this?
I don't deny that it happens, but it really doesn't happen all that often (and it's not like we are the only offense that has bad/lazy execution at times).
People like to waive away numbers claiming they don't tell the whole story, but the eye test is not reliable or consistent enough. It is too subjective, and the nature of our attention/memory is to focus on the extraordinary. That is, a really good play or a really bad one, ignoring all of the stuff that happens in between. Out of an average NBA game, there are only going to be around ~6-10 plays that most of us will remember afterwords, and they are going to either be highlight reel worthy greatness or something that p---ed us off.
It doesn't matter if there were 30 solid offensive possessions in the game, so long as there were 3 really bad ones, because those 3 are going to the be the ones you remember.
Unless somebody can actually prove with a count how many times Rondo "wastes" an offensive possession in a game, whether through laziness or lack of aggression or sloppiness or whatever, and that he does this more than most star players, then you literally have no argument!
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I want to make a point about Rondo's apparent lack of defensive effort; I think a big thing is that his on ball defense is being compared to Avery Bradley's. I have to say that I literally don't think there's another point guard in the league who pressures the ball handler and fights through screens like Avery Bradley. There certainly aren't any other elite level offensive point guards who do--not Chris Paul, not Russell Westbrook, not Tony Parker, not Derrick Rose, not Kyrie Irving, not Steph Curry . . .
I submit that not only is Rondo actually a superior on ball defender to those other guys listed, but he's also more disruptive off the ball than any of those players (I might put Paul and Westbrook close to in Rondo's class).
Back to Bradley, it's what is so impressive about his D. That kind of ball pressure is simply not something we are used to seeing in an NBA basketball game. When he is playing next to Rondo, the automatic reaction is; "look how lazy Rondo is. He doesn't play defense like Bradley." But, nobody else in the league plays defense like Bradley.
Rondo's a great defender, and having Avery back makes him even better. It allows him to do more of the things defensively that he excels at like jumping passing lanes and helping and trapping without having to be the guy who is guarding the ball and fighting off bone crushing screens all game.
I agree that Rondo gets unfairly compared to Bradley. AB puts everyone to shame.
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Can you guys please calm down with the consistent effort talk? this kid has literally bled, played through injuries, dislocated his arm for us, and he has played fantastic in the playoffs. when it counts rajon comes through and plays his heart out. PERIOD. the regular season is only the regular season.
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My question to those who are unhappy with Rondo, and more specifically his inconsistent level of play is quite simple.
Do you realize if Rondo played the way many want, on a night-in-night-out basis, he would likely miss numerous games due to injury?
I would like him to be able to better adapt his style of play to more of a "just anther cog in the wheel" style when he is not going full-out, but have little problem with him coasting at times. Rondo is a slightly built guy, we don't need him being a hero every night. Unless we want a DRose situation.
that's because he doesn't play that smartly. Plenty of small guys give maximum effort and don't miss game after game, including some players that are very very good (like Rondo is).
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8 and 8 from Rondo was still an ESPN highlight.
just saying...
I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but is this supposed to be an argument for Rondo playing up to his capabilities?
Ignoring the offensive end for the moment, my biggest gripe is Rondo's defense when he's not guarding a premiere player like LeBron, or Chris Paul, or Deron Williams. When he plays the rest of the league, watch him on defense.
He'll stand in the middle of the lane at times and just point at his man who is spotting up for a wide-open three and yell "Switch! Switch!" at his teammates.
Or a shot will go up and if he doesn't feel like rebounding (which he's incredible at) he'll just turn and watch the play while his man runs unimpeded to the basket for an offensive rebound.
He also has a bad habit of not fighting through picks. He'll run into the pick and give one of those fake foul reactions where he'll throw his arms up. The refs usually don't call it and his man just goes to the basket.
Don't get me wrong, when he's motivated, he can play great defense. But he gives the impression that if he's guarding a Ramon Sessions type that he feels it's beneath him to actually play the right way.
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Can you guys please calm down with the consistent effort talk? this kid has literally bled, played through injuries, dislocated his arm for us, and he has played fantastic in the playoffs. when it counts rajon comes through and plays his heart out. PERIOD. the regular season is only the regular season.
I'm as hard on Rondo as anyone here, and I was very supportive of Rondo's play during the playoffs, hell I was quite supportive of Rondo at the start of the season, but even during those times, some of these problems crept up, and it happens during the most inopportune times, like the 4th quarter of games. That said, he also balanced it out with some really spectacular 4th quarter performances in the playoffs.
But it's a problem, and it's a problem that I see as very easily fixable from by his part, which makes it that much more frustrating when they occur.
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Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?
He never coasts to the extent that people are claiming, but he gets to the rim more often and rebounds more in the playoffs. I don't mind him doing less of that during the season as (since he actually is a little guy) the wear and tear that comes with his playoff style of play will make him more injury prone. Playoffs are relatively short and he's been there for 5 years and this was the first year he made it through the playoffs without his play being hampered by injuries he picked up during the playoffs.
Also note that in 2010 we went all the way to the finals and he spent much of the offseason with team USA and the next year was by far the least healthy of his career. I don't think it was a coincidence.
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I expect a lot more production out of him as we get closer to the playoffs. I think his second half will be much better then his first half.
And that makes us scary in my opinion.
Please just stay healthy.
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Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?
He never coasts to the extent that people are claiming, but he gets to the rim more often and rebounds more in the playoffs. I don't mind him doing less of that during the season as (since he actually is a little guy) the wear and tear that comes with his playoff style of play will make him more injury prone. Playoffs are relatively short and he's been there for 5 years and this was the first year he made it through the playoffs without his play being hampered by injuries he picked up during the playoffs.
Also note that in 2010 we went all the way to the finals and he spent much of the offseason with team USA and the next year was by far the least healthy of his career. I don't think it was a coincidence.
There are literally dozens of point guards who are about Rondo's size, many of whom get to the line much more than Rondo. I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever.
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Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?
He never coasts to the extent that people are claiming, but he gets to the rim more often and rebounds more in the playoffs. I don't mind him doing less of that during the season as (since he actually is a little guy) the wear and tear that comes with his playoff style of play will make him more injury prone. Playoffs are relatively short and he's been there for 5 years and this was the first year he made it through the playoffs without his play being hampered by injuries he picked up during the playoffs.
Also note that in 2010 we went all the way to the finals and he spent much of the offseason with team USA and the next year was by far the least healthy of his career. I don't think it was a coincidence.
There are literally dozens of point guards who are about Rondo's size, many of whom get to the line much more than Rondo. I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever.
How many of them get 7 rebounds a game? How many of them take the 7-8 shots a game at the rim that Rondo does? And what does "I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever" signify? That it's coincidental that he gets more banged up when he plays with abandon? That he doesn't really pick up those knocks in the playoffs?
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Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?
He never coasts to the extent that people are claiming, but he gets to the rim more often and rebounds more in the playoffs. I don't mind him doing less of that during the season as (since he actually is a little guy) the wear and tear that comes with his playoff style of play will make him more injury prone. Playoffs are relatively short and he's been there for 5 years and this was the first year he made it through the playoffs without his play being hampered by injuries he picked up during the playoffs.
Also note that in 2010 we went all the way to the finals and he spent much of the offseason with team USA and the next year was by far the least healthy of his career. I don't think it was a coincidence.
There are literally dozens of point guards who are about Rondo's size, many of whom get to the line much more than Rondo. I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever.
How many of them get 7 rebounds a game? How many of them take the 7-8 shots a game at the rim that Rondo does? And what does "I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever" signify? That it's coincidental that he gets more banged up when he plays with abandon? That he doesn't really pick up those knocks in the playoffs?
Lots of point guards get to the paint and absorb contact. Rondo ranks 2nd among PGs in rebounds, but only 29th in free throw attempts. (One of the fastest and most skilled PGs in the league ranks near the bottom of all starters in FTAs. That just shouldn't happen, regardless of excuse.)
A guy like Russell Westbrook grabs more boards than Rondo, and has gotten to the line over three times more than he has. He's got two inches and 15 pounds on Rondo.
A guy like Brandon Jennings is actually smaller than Rondo, and has gotten to the line twice as much. Isaiah Thomas is 5'9", and he gets to the line more than Rondo; Nate Robinson gets there almost as much.
The excuse "small guys can't attack the hoop or they will get injured" doesn't make any sense, because lots of small guys are driving the lane and are doing it just fine.
As an aside, where are you getting that Rondo takes 7 or 8 shot attempts at the rim per game? He's got 121 FGAs at the rim this season, which is about 4 per game. Add in his FTAs, and let's say he's attempting those shots about 5 times per game. Westbrook is getting around 6 shots at the rim, and is averaging 6 FTAs.
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Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?
He never coasts to the extent that people are claiming, but he gets to the rim more often and rebounds more in the playoffs. I don't mind him doing less of that during the season as (since he actually is a little guy) the wear and tear that comes with his playoff style of play will make him more injury prone. Playoffs are relatively short and he's been there for 5 years and this was the first year he made it through the playoffs without his play being hampered by injuries he picked up during the playoffs.
Also note that in 2010 we went all the way to the finals and he spent much of the offseason with team USA and the next year was by far the least healthy of his career. I don't think it was a coincidence.
There are literally dozens of point guards who are about Rondo's size, many of whom get to the line much more than Rondo. I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever.
How many of them get 7 rebounds a game? How many of them take the 7-8 shots a game at the rim that Rondo does? And what does "I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever" signify? That it's coincidental that he gets more banged up when he plays with abandon? That he doesn't really pick up those knocks in the playoffs?
Lots of point guards get to the paint and absorb contact. Rondo ranks 2nd among PGs in rebounds, but only 29th in free throw attempts.
A guy like Russell Westbrook grabs more boards than Rondo, and has gotten to the line over three times more than he has. He's got two inches and 15 pounds on Rondo.
A guy like Brandon Jennings is actually smaller than Rondo, and has gotten to the line twice as much. Isaiah Thomas is 5'9", and he gets to the line more than Rondo; Nate Robinson gets there almost as much.
The excuse "small guys can't attack the hoop or they will get injured" doesn't make any sense, because lots of small guys are driving the lane and are doing it just fine.
Again, how many of those guys get 7-8 rebounds a game and take 7-8 shots a game at the rim?
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Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?
He never coasts to the extent that people are claiming, but he gets to the rim more often and rebounds more in the playoffs. I don't mind him doing less of that during the season as (since he actually is a little guy) the wear and tear that comes with his playoff style of play will make him more injury prone. Playoffs are relatively short and he's been there for 5 years and this was the first year he made it through the playoffs without his play being hampered by injuries he picked up during the playoffs.
Also note that in 2010 we went all the way to the finals and he spent much of the offseason with team USA and the next year was by far the least healthy of his career. I don't think it was a coincidence.
There are literally dozens of point guards who are about Rondo's size, many of whom get to the line much more than Rondo. I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever.
How many of them get 7 rebounds a game? How many of them take the 7-8 shots a game at the rim that Rondo does? And what does "I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever" signify? That it's coincidental that he gets more banged up when he plays with abandon? That he doesn't really pick up those knocks in the playoffs?
Lots of point guards get to the paint and absorb contact. Rondo ranks 2nd among PGs in rebounds, but only 29th in free throw attempts. (One of the fastest and most skilled PGs in the league ranks near the bottom of all starters in FTAs. That just shouldn't happen, regardless of excuse.)
A guy like Russell Westbrook grabs more boards than Rondo, and has gotten to the line over three times more than he has. He's got two inches and 15 pounds on Rondo.
A guy like Brandon Jennings is actually smaller than Rondo, and has gotten to the line twice as much. Isaiah Thomas is 5'9", and he gets to the line more than Rondo; Nate Robinson gets there almost as much.
The excuse "small guys can't attack the hoop or they will get injured" doesn't make any sense, because lots of small guys are driving the lane and are doing it just fine.
As an aside, where are you getting that Rondo takes 7 or 8 shot attempts at the rim per game? He's got 121 FGAs at the rim this season, which is about 4 per game. Add in his FTAs, and let's say he's attempting those shots about 5 times per game. Westbrook is getting around 6 shots at the rim, and is averaging 6 FTAs.
He gets 7-8 shot attempts a game (not counting free throws) in the playoffs (probably closer to 8 overall) over the last 4 years and he's probably averaged about 7 boards a game over that time.
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Rondo ranks 27th among PGs who played 10 games and 15+ minutes per game in FTA/FGA ratio. Slightly below average for a PG overall at .230 (average is .237)
His And1 percentage is also pretty low. (actually tied with CP3 though, thought his would have been higher)
Rondo doesn't try to get to the line as much as other PGs, his poor free throw shooting is the reason in my opinion. (only two PGs who meet the criteria above shoot worse from the line than Rondo)
He's not terrible at drawing FTAs, but with his physical profile its something I feel he could do more.
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Rondo ranks 27th among PGs who played 10 games and 15+ minutes per game in FTA/FGA ratio. Slightly below average for a PG overall at .230 (average is .237)
His And1 percentage is also pretty low. (actually tied with CP3 though, thought his would have been higher)
Rondo doesn't try to get to the line as much as other PGs, his poor free throw shooting is the reason in my opinion. (only two PGs who meet the criteria above shoot worse from the line than Rondo)
He's not terrible at drawing FTAs, but with his physical profile its something I feel he could do more.
Goes back to my "avoiding potential injuries" theory. The more contact Rondo takes, the more chance there is for him to sustain injury. He isn't really built well for taking constant hits from bigs.
The FTs probably play a role as well, though.
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Oh and despite his poor free throw shooting everytime Rondo gets to the line he's helping our offense. Even at mid 60s a possession where he's on the line is a good one.
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Oh and despite his poor free throw shooting everytime Rondo gets to the line he's helping our offense. Even at mid 60s a possession where he's on the line is a good one.
Oh what I'd give for Rondo to shoot in the low 70s from the line......the turrrrible things I would do, lol
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What player doesn't coast? Normally you could say Lebron but honestly the heat are coasting this year. Kobe Bryant? eh he coasts on defense...westbrook and Durant? Maybe. Paul pierce is the master of coasting, he's quite good at it actually..where are those threads?
A bigger argument could be made for Kgs "coasting" do people remember what he was like when he first showed up? Intense every night, extreme intensity. ya know when we were a dominant regular season team? He doesn't play like that every night anymore and it's no coincidence we aren't as dominant...he knows and has learned it's about the playoffs
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[Edited. Comments like this are against our posting rules. -RH]
You gonna say Rondo's inconsistent effort is our biggest issue?
What about Green's inconsistency?
What about Terry's inconsistency?
What about Bass' inconsistency?
What about Pierce's inconsistency?
Its easy to just put the blame on one player, the fact of the matter is that there are multiple people who are inconsistent, except Rondo ends up being the scapegoat all the time.
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No offense, but this thread is pretty stupid.
You gonna say Rondo's inconsistent effort is our biggest issue?
What about Green's inconsistency?
What about Terry's inconsistency?
What about Bass' inconsistency?
What about Pierce's inconsistency?
Its easy to just put the blame on one player, the fact of the matter is that there are multiple people who are inconsistent, except Rondo ends up being the scapegoat all the time.
Bingo.
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No offense, but this thread is pretty stupid.
You gonna say Rondo's inconsistent effort is our biggest issue?
What about Green's inconsistency?
What about Terry's inconsistency?
What about Bass' inconsistency?
What about Pierce's inconsistency?
Its easy to just put the blame on one player, the fact of the matter is that there are multiple people who are inconsistent, except Rondo ends up being the scapegoat all the time.
Rondo def takes the most crap. I've never seen a player bring out the two extremes in fans.
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[Edited. Comments like this are against our posting rules. -RH]
You gonna say Rondo's inconsistent effort is our biggest issue?
What about Green's inconsistency?
What about Terry's inconsistency?
What about Bass' inconsistency?
What about Pierce's inconsistency?
Its easy to just put the blame on one player, the fact of the matter is that there are multiple people who are inconsistent, except Rondo ends up being the scapegoat all the time.
Did you really not bother to read anything in this thread?
Bass, Green and Terry do not even approach Rondos ability level and importance on this team and Pierce is clearly also second to Rondo in that regard. Rondo's up and downs effect this team far more than any of those players do.
Next time you try to be a contrarian, at least know what you're trying to contradict.
The defense has gotten better since Bradley got back because of two reasons.
1. Effort has improved
2. Bradleys perimeter d
3. Bradleys full court pressure
Rondo is more than capable of playing hard.
Rondo is more than capable of keeping guys in front of him
People rave about Bradleys effect on the club and try to ignore the hypocrisy of raving about Rondo at the same time. Rondo is a first team all NBA defensive player. He is more than capable of playing at the level Bradley does on defense. He simply chooses not to put that effort into it every game. Now Bradley's man defense is better than Rondos (and anyone else in the NBA), but Rondo letting guys blow past him was a MASSIVE issue with our defense, I would even say the BIGGEST issue with our team this season. It forced guys to rotate and gave easy layups.
Bradley returns, and all of a sudden we aren't giving 50 free layups a game thanks to Rondo and we suddenly have a top 3 defense before Bradley even gets into game shape. It's effort. Bradley keeps guys in front of him. Rondo lets guys run past him so he doesn't have to fight through screens and can just gamble for a stat padding steal.
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[Edited. Comments like this are against our posting rules. -RH]
You gonna say Rondo's inconsistent effort is our biggest issue?
What about Green's inconsistency?
What about Terry's inconsistency?
What about Bass' inconsistency?
What about Pierce's inconsistency?
Its easy to just put the blame on one player, the fact of the matter is that there are multiple people who are inconsistent, except Rondo ends up being the scapegoat all the time.
Green, Terry, and Bass just aren't that good nor capable of playing at a much higher or consistent level. Just the game they play. Pierce is old. Age takes a players consistency. He was much more consistent when he was closer to Rondo's age.
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[/quote] Pierce is old. Age takes a players consistency. He was much more consistent when he was closer to Rondo's age.
[/quote]
that's a stretch
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Rondo is a lazy player, giving effort when he deems necessary.. with NBA star skills.... and no one other than the fans is willing to call him out on it.
Just because Doc lets him play with half his brain functioning doesn't mean there isn't an issue.
So he can just vaction till playoff time ...he isn't Lebron .
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1. And what's the problem with that? If Rondo is on the break, he is usually the guy closest to our basket to begin with, and he's the fastest on our team. I don't see a problem with that. I see no problem with him pushing the ball and not finding anything, at worst, we get an early start to our offense. This excuse doesn't fly. Also, more often than not, he has an open man waiting at the 3-point land, he very rarely gives that pass, holds the ball waiting to see if someone catches up, if no one arrives he then brings the ball back when we had a wide-open shot available all along. Sometimes it works because it leads to an easy basket, but we lose a lot of good opportunities also.
The problem is when Rondo breaks up the court on a fast break, he usually doesn't have anyone else running with him and it takes quite some time for others like KG and Pierce to get upcourt. By the time the offense is getting set to go, more time has run off as compared to if Rondo had just walked it up in the first place. Why? because some of the older players sit back and watch Rondo on the break and only if he can't complete it do they then start running upcourt. What appears to be Rondo passivity and just dribbling the ball is actually a lack of effort on the part of his team mates.
2. You do realize that Rondo is calling the plays right? Often redirecting traffic, which is fine... until you realize he's spent 5 seconds doing so, then add the 8 seconds he spends walking the ball up the floor which leads to poor possessions.
I realize Rondo calls the plays but if the other players aren't moving around and performing the play, how is that Rondo's fault? Let's say he calls for a 1-3 screen and roll. Pierce must run through a screen, then pick Rondo's man at the top of the key, then roll towards the three point line and get a quick pass from Rondo to create a mismatch on Rondo's man. Meanwhile to take advantage of the mismatch the shooting guard has to stay in the far side corner and the PF and C have to them move out of the key or towards Pierce's man to help create space for Pierce to drive or cause anther switch mismatch only with Rondo's original man attempting to guard a C or PF down low.
Even in this, the play with the absolute least amount of off the ball movement, there's still lots of movement. Countless times, the C's offense stagnates because other players than the ball handler(the ball handler could be Rondo, Terry, Pierce or in years past, Allen) and it appears the ball handler is just over dribbling when the fact is lack of player movement is really the cause of the problem, not the ball handler.
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1. And what's the problem with that? If Rondo is on the break, he is usually the guy closest to our basket to begin with, and he's the fastest on our team. I don't see a problem with that. I see no problem with him pushing the ball and not finding anything, at worst, we get an early start to our offense. This excuse doesn't fly. Also, more often than not, he has an open man waiting at the 3-point land, he very rarely gives that pass, holds the ball waiting to see if someone catches up, if no one arrives he then brings the ball back when we had a wide-open shot available all along. Sometimes it works because it leads to an easy basket, but we lose a lot of good opportunities also.
The problem is when Rondo breaks up the court on a fast break, he usually doesn't have anyone else running with him and it takes quite some time for others like KG and Pierce to get upcourt. By the time the offense is getting set to go, more time has run off as compared to if Rondo had just walked it up in the first place. Why? because some of the older players sit back and watch Rondo on the break and only if he can't complete it do they then start running upcourt. What appears to be Rondo passivity and just dribbling the ball is actually a lack of effort on the part of his team mates.
2. You do realize that Rondo is calling the plays right? Often redirecting traffic, which is fine... until you realize he's spent 5 seconds doing so, then add the 8 seconds he spends walking the ball up the floor which leads to poor possessions.
I realize Rondo calls the plays but if the other players aren't moving around and performing the play, how is that Rondo's fault? Let's say he calls for a 1-3 screen and roll. Pierce must run through a screen, then pick Rondo's man at the top of the key, then roll towards the three point line and get a quick pass from Rondo to create a mismatch on Rondo's man. Meanwhile to take advantage of the mismatch the shooting guard has to stay in the far side corner and the PF and C have to them move out of the key or towards Pierce's man to help create space for Pierce to drive or cause anther switch mismatch only with Rondo's original man attempting to guard a C or PF down low.
Even in this, the play with the absolute least amount of off the ball movement, there's still lots of movement. Countless times, the C's offense stagnates because other players than the ball handler(the ball handler could be Rondo, Terry, Pierce or in years past, Allen) and it appears the ball handler is just over dribbling when the fact is lack of player movement is really the cause of the problem, not the ball handler.
I def agree with this. Sometimes it looks like players are going through the playbook in their head to remember the play, causing the delay. I think if we made our offense a little less complicated it'd solve some of this.
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Rondo ranks 27th among PGs who played 10 games and 15+ minutes per game in FTA/FGA ratio. Slightly below average for a PG overall at .230 (average is .237)
His And1 percentage is also pretty low. (actually tied with CP3 though, thought his would have been higher)
Rondo doesn't try to get to the line as much as other PGs, his poor free throw shooting is the reason in my opinion. (only two PGs who meet the criteria above shoot worse from the line than Rondo)
He's not terrible at drawing FTAs, but with his physical profile its something I feel he could do more.
We have a winner.
TP.
Rondo is smart enough to know where his weaknesses are and to minimize his weaknesses and maximize his team's chance of scoring he drives to the basket less and shoots less free throws because if he did it more he would be hurting the team. Better to create at the key or by dribble drive and dishing than going to the basket and picking up a foul and missing 45% of his free throws.
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Rondo ranks 27th among PGs who played 10 games and 15+ minutes per game in FTA/FGA ratio. Slightly below average for a PG overall at .230 (average is .237)
His And1 percentage is also pretty low. (actually tied with CP3 though, thought his would have been higher)
Rondo doesn't try to get to the line as much as other PGs, his poor free throw shooting is the reason in my opinion. (only two PGs who meet the criteria above shoot worse from the line than Rondo)
He's not terrible at drawing FTAs, but with his physical profile its something I feel he could do more.
We have a winner.
TP.
Rondo is smart enough to know where his weaknesses are and to minimize his weaknesses and maximize his team's chance of scoring he drives to the basket less and shoots less free throws because if he did it more he would be hurting the team. Better to create at the key or by dribble drive and dishing than going to the basket and picking up a foul and missing 45% of his free throws.
Rondo getting to the line doesn't hurt the team, it just doesn't help the team as much as it could. he hits over 60% of them, our TS% is less than that.
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Rondo ranks 27th among PGs who played 10 games and 15+ minutes per game in FTA/FGA ratio. Slightly below average for a PG overall at .230 (average is .237)
His And1 percentage is also pretty low. (actually tied with CP3 though, thought his would have been higher)
Rondo doesn't try to get to the line as much as other PGs, his poor free throw shooting is the reason in my opinion. (only two PGs who meet the criteria above shoot worse from the line than Rondo)
He's not terrible at drawing FTAs, but with his physical profile its something I feel he could do more.
We have a winner.
TP.
Rondo is smart enough to know where his weaknesses are and to minimize his weaknesses and maximize his team's chance of scoring he drives to the basket less and shoots less free throws because if he did it more he would be hurting the team. Better to create at the key or by dribble drive and dishing than going to the basket and picking up a foul and missing 45% of his free throws.
I don't think that Faf's point was that Rondo getting to the line hurts the team. Even beyond the points it would get the offense, there's the fact that getting opposing players into foul trouble and getting the entire team into the bonus is a plus.
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Rondo ranks 27th among PGs who played 10 games and 15+ minutes per game in FTA/FGA ratio. Slightly below average for a PG overall at .230 (average is .237)
His And1 percentage is also pretty low. (actually tied with CP3 though, thought his would have been higher)
Rondo doesn't try to get to the line as much as other PGs, his poor free throw shooting is the reason in my opinion. (only two PGs who meet the criteria above shoot worse from the line than Rondo)
He's not terrible at drawing FTAs, but with his physical profile its something I feel he could do more.
We have a winner.
TP.
Rondo is smart enough to know where his weaknesses are and to minimize his weaknesses and maximize his team's chance of scoring he drives to the basket less and shoots less free throws because if he did it more he would be hurting the team. Better to create at the key or by dribble drive and dishing than going to the basket and picking up a foul and missing 45% of his free throws.
I don't think that Faf's point was that Rondo getting to the line hurts the team. Even beyond the points it would get the offense, there's the fact that getting opposing players into foul trouble and getting the entire team into the bonus is a plus.
No it my point that his missing free throws hurts the team. Let's face it he's a bad free throw shooter.
The Celtics PPS this season, excluding Rondo, is above 1.2. That is almost exactly what Rondo would yield with 2 free throws.
But, Rondo also would take a beating driving more, he stands the chance of not getting the calls as he isn't exactly the most popular guy with a bunch of refs, he could pick up offensive fouls and put himself in foul trouble, and there's the chance he could go into one his prolonged shooting woes at the line which is prone to do.
Does this offset the advantages that possibly getting the other team in foul trouble? I think it does because, let's face it, the Celtics are a team of jump shooters. They very rarely take advantage of their opposition getting into foul trouble by going inside. So risking a Rondo injury or getting only as much points as the team would normally get by just not having Rondo get fouled while shooting, IMO isn't worth it.
If he was as good a free throw shooter as Westbrook or Jennings or Thomas or others, then yes, driving the lane and getting fouled would help his team. But given just how bad a free throw shooter he is, his rep with the refs, his team's penchant for never going inside when the opposition is in foul trouble and just how well his team scores as a normal function of offense, I think he hurts the team by driving to the basket and forcing the issue.
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I guess the "don't drive the lane because you'll get hurt" mentality is here to stay. I don't think that's how winners play basketball. I can't think of another successful PG in history who declined to attack the basket due to fear of injury.
If Rondo really is playing scared, he needs to be traded.
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I guess the "don't drive the lane because you'll get hurt" mentality is here to stay. I don't think that's how winners play basketball. I can't think of another successful PG in history who declined to attack the basket due to fear of injury.
If Rondo really is playing scared, he needs to be traded.
No he doesn't drive the lane out of fear of getting hurt but because its not in his team's best interest to maximize their chance of scoring.
How you could take only that part out of what I said is astounding. That is just one part of the total reasoning and probably the smallest part of it.
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Only if Rondo played passive in the playoffs would I trade him over not attacking. I know people don't like to give him that pass, but I do. As long as he shows up when it matters.
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I guess the "don't drive the lane because you'll get hurt" mentality is here to stay. I don't think that's how winners play basketball. I can't think of another successful PG in history who declined to attack the basket due to fear of injury.
If Rondo really is playing scared, he needs to be traded.
No he doesn't drive the lane out of fear of getting hurt but because its not in his team's best interest to maximize their chance of scoring.
How you could take only that part out of what I said is astounding. That is just one part of the total reasoning and probably the smallest part of it.
I already gave my opinion to the rest of it. I think it's beneficial for the team if Rondo is attacking.
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I guess the "don't drive the lane because you'll get hurt" mentality is here to stay. I don't think that's how winners play basketball. I can't think of another successful PG in history who declined to attack the basket due to fear of injury.
If Rondo really is playing scared, he needs to be traded.
No he doesn't drive the lane out of fear of getting hurt but because its not in his team's best interest to maximize their chance of scoring.
How you could take only that part out of what I said is astounding. That is just one part of the total reasoning and probably the smallest part of it.
I already gave my opinion to the rest of it. I think it's beneficial for the team if Rondo is attacking.
We can agree to disagree with that.
A lot of people disagree with Doc's lack of focus on offensive rebounding. Hasn't seemed to effect just how great this team has performed over the last five years. There's very valid arguments for and against his philosophy but Doc makes that work.
I think the same is true for this argument. There's very valid arguments that Rondo driving the lane could help or hurt the team. We will never know until the opposite happens though.
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I guess the "don't drive the lane because you'll get hurt" mentality is here to stay. I don't think that's how winners play basketball. I can't think of another successful PG in history who declined to attack the basket due to fear of injury.
If Rondo really is playing scared, he needs to be traded.
Rondo obviously does drive the lane. If you think that every point guard who does less than Rondo should get traded because they "play scared" then there's going to be a tremendously high amount of turnover. You might as well put the Celts down for CP3, he'd be my choice if we can't have Rondo.
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I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.
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I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.
I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.
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I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.
I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.
I actually like the way we look when we push the ball up the floor, start our offense early in the shot clock, and work the ball around. The problem is that we aren't effective in doing the latter because Rondo is a liability when he's off the ball. I remember earlier in his career he used to roam the baseline, similar to Bradley, more on offense when we were running stuff for others. That Rondo pounding the ball, while others work off screens, stuff is simply maddening. It makes our offense too stale and much easier to defend.
He's held to a higher standard because we know what he's capable of on both ends of the floor. Getting lit up, more often than not, by inferior players just because you don't want to move your feet and rather poke the ball from behind is unacceptable.
Rondo is a great player, but he is not above reproach. And at the end of the day it's about the CELTICS and not about Rondo.
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I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.
I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.
I actually like the way we look when we push the ball up the floor, start our offense early in the shot clock, and work the ball around. The problem is that we aren't effective in doing the latter because Rondo is a liability when he's off the ball. I remember earlier in his career he used to roam the baseline, similar to Bradley, more on offense when we were running stuff for others. That Rondo pounding the ball, while others work off screens, stuff is simply maddening. It makes our offense too stale and much easier to defend.
He's held to a higher standard because we know what he's capable of on both ends of the floor. Getting lit up, more often than not, by inferior players just because you don't want to move your feet and rather poke the ball from behind is unacceptable.
Rondo is a great player, but he is not above reproach. And at the end of the day it's about the CELTICS and not about Rondo.
Sure, it's about the Celts, but your "higher standard" should still be based on reality. Everyone likes the way we look when Rondo pushes the ball up. That's because he pushes the ball up whenever it's likely we'll gain an advantage by doing so. KG and PP (and sometimes others) aren't hustling up court and all 5 defenders are usually back when he walks the ball up court.
Should Rondo run the ball up court so he can then wait for his teammates to follow him? Are we hoping to wear out KG and PP by having them sprint up court so we can get into our half court set 2 seconds earlier? I just don't see it, and I don't see the need to blame Rondo for not pushing the pace when none of his teammates are beating their defenders up the court.
Aside: I don't think Rondo's job is to push the pace as fast as possible when 2 of our best offensive players are 35 or older.
Lastly, it's not the case that Rondo gets "lit up, more often than not, by inferior players". Higher standards is one thing, hyperbolic assessments are something else.
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I could see Rondo trying to push the pace only for it not to work with our starters, then I'd see the thread, "why is Rondo ignoring pp and kg?". Fans would talk about how he's not utilizing our two best weapons, trade him!
I'm fine with how Rondo plays
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Edit: Realized someone already made the point that Rondo's lack of FTAs probably has something to do with his bad FT% and confidence.
I agree with the OP that Rondo could have been working harder defensively this season and I hope AB being back will make him step up his effort.
One thing I'll say about Rondo's effort is that at full tempo his style of play is reckless, he's throwing his body around and putting himself in weird angles. It's easier to judge his effort level based on watching his play. I think a lot of other guys in the league coast, but it's not as obvious because their game looks pretty much the same regardless of effort.
Another thing is that no one is KG. He's a freak of nature, not the standard when it comes to effort and stamina. Same with Westbrook. Overall, Rondo is well above average when it comes to effort and stamina.
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I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.
I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.
I actually like the way we look when we push the ball up the floor, start our offense early in the shot clock, and work the ball around. The problem is that we aren't effective in doing the latter because Rondo is a liability when he's off the ball. I remember earlier in his career he used to roam the baseline, similar to Bradley, more on offense when we were running stuff for others. That Rondo pounding the ball, while others work off screens, stuff is simply maddening. It makes our offense too stale and much easier to defend.
He's held to a higher standard because we know what he's capable of on both ends of the floor. Getting lit up, more often than not, by inferior players just because you don't want to move your feet and rather poke the ball from behind is unacceptable.
Rondo is a great player, but he is not above reproach. And at the end of the day it's about the CELTICS and not about Rondo.
Sure, it's about the Celts, but your "higher standard" should still be based on reality. Everyone likes the way we look when Rondo pushes the ball up. That's because he pushes the ball up whenever it's likely we'll gain an advantage by doing so. KG and PP (and sometimes others) aren't hustling up court and all 5 defenders are usually back when he walks the ball up court.
Should Rondo run the ball up court so he can then wait for his teammates to follow him? Are we hoping to wear out KG and PP by having them sprint up court so we can get into our half court set 2 seconds earlier? I just don't see it, and I don't see the need to blame Rondo for not pushing the pace when none of his teammates are beating their defenders up the court.
Aside: I don't think Rondo's job is to push the pace as fast as possible when 2 of our best offensive players are 35 or older.
Lastly, it's not the case that Rondo gets "lit up, more often than not, by inferior players". Higher standards is one thing, hyperbolic assessments are something else.
Last night I saw suns players running the fast break 2 vs 5 or 1 vs 3 on multiple occasions and get easy layups and wide open 3 point shots because of it. We were on our heals and they attacked.
This nonsense that you need Wade, Lebron, Durant and Dwight alongside Rondo or he can't run the fast break is nonsense and just pure excuses to protect Rondo.
In fact all I am hearing now is excuses for Rondo. Rondo getting to the line would be bad for our offense now? Really?? Even if Rondo isn't a great FT shooter, you're getting fouls on their bigmen which makes it easier for the rest of the time to drive. On top of that you don't get better at something by not doing it ever. And even more on top of that, getting FTA and a drawn foul is always better than a contested late shot clock fadaway jumper which is what happens most of the time Rondo walks the ball up and tries to orchestrate a play instead of taking the layup because the layup requires him to run.
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I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.
I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.
I actually like the way we look when we push the ball up the floor, start our offense early in the shot clock, and work the ball around. The problem is that we aren't effective in doing the latter because Rondo is a liability when he's off the ball. I remember earlier in his career he used to roam the baseline, similar to Bradley, more on offense when we were running stuff for others. That Rondo pounding the ball, while others work off screens, stuff is simply maddening. It makes our offense too stale and much easier to defend.
He's held to a higher standard because we know what he's capable of on both ends of the floor. Getting lit up, more often than not, by inferior players just because you don't want to move your feet and rather poke the ball from behind is unacceptable.
Rondo is a great player, but he is not above reproach. And at the end of the day it's about the CELTICS and not about Rondo.
Sure, it's about the Celts, but your "higher standard" should still be based on reality. Everyone likes the way we look when Rondo pushes the ball up. That's because he pushes the ball up whenever it's likely we'll gain an advantage by doing so. KG and PP (and sometimes others) aren't hustling up court and all 5 defenders are usually back when he walks the ball up court.
Should Rondo run the ball up court so he can then wait for his teammates to follow him? Are we hoping to wear out KG and PP by having them sprint up court so we can get into our half court set 2 seconds earlier? I just don't see it, and I don't see the need to blame Rondo for not pushing the pace when none of his teammates are beating their defenders up the court.
Aside: I don't think Rondo's job is to push the pace as fast as possible when 2 of our best offensive players are 35 or older.
Lastly, it's not the case that Rondo gets "lit up, more often than not, by inferior players". Higher standards is one thing, hyperbolic assessments are something else.
Last night I saw suns players running the fast break 2 vs 5 or 1 vs 3 on multiple occasions and get easy layups and wide open 3 point shots because of it. We were on our heals and they attacked.
Last night you saw the team that plays at the fastest pace in the league. We're not that team, whether you like it or not. News flash, not every team wants to play racehorse basketball. Look at the Spurs, for example. They push the ball whenever possible and play at almost the fastest pace in the league. 4-5 years ago (maybe even more recently) they were a grind it out team that played at close to the *slowest* pace in the league.
What do you think changed? Do you think that, after 8+ years, Pop finally got through to Parker and the others and got them to play how he wanted them to since they were rookies? Obviously this isn't the case. He wants the team to push the pace more now. Doc runs the team, not Tommy, and I doubt he minds Rondo slowing down the game (when there's no good transition opportunity) as much as you do.
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I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.
I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.
I actually like the way we look when we push the ball up the floor, start our offense early in the shot clock, and work the ball around. The problem is that we aren't effective in doing the latter because Rondo is a liability when he's off the ball. I remember earlier in his career he used to roam the baseline, similar to Bradley, more on offense when we were running stuff for others. That Rondo pounding the ball, while others work off screens, stuff is simply maddening. It makes our offense too stale and much easier to defend.
He's held to a higher standard because we know what he's capable of on both ends of the floor. Getting lit up, more often than not, by inferior players just because you don't want to move your feet and rather poke the ball from behind is unacceptable.
Rondo is a great player, but he is not above reproach. And at the end of the day it's about the CELTICS and not about Rondo.
Sure, it's about the Celts, but your "higher standard" should still be based on reality. Everyone likes the way we look when Rondo pushes the ball up. That's because he pushes the ball up whenever it's likely we'll gain an advantage by doing so. KG and PP (and sometimes others) aren't hustling up court and all 5 defenders are usually back when he walks the ball up court.
Should Rondo run the ball up court so he can then wait for his teammates to follow him? Are we hoping to wear out KG and PP by having them sprint up court so we can get into our half court set 2 seconds earlier? I just don't see it, and I don't see the need to blame Rondo for not pushing the pace when none of his teammates are beating their defenders up the court.
Aside: I don't think Rondo's job is to push the pace as fast as possible when 2 of our best offensive players are 35 or older.
Lastly, it's not the case that Rondo gets "lit up, more often than not, by inferior players". Higher standards is one thing, hyperbolic assessments are something else.
Last night I saw suns players running the fast break 2 vs 5 or 1 vs 3 on multiple occasions and get easy layups and wide open 3 point shots because of it. We were on our heals and they attacked.
Last night you saw the team that plays at the fastest pace in the league. We're not that team, whether you like it or not. News flash, not every team wants to play racehorse basketball. Look at the Spurs, for example. They push the ball whenever possible and play at almost the fastest pace in the league. 4-5 years ago (maybe even more recently) they were a grind it out team that played at close to the *slowest* pace in the league.
What do you think changed? Do you think that, after 8+ years, Pop finally got through to Parker and the others and got them to play how he wanted them to since they were rookies? Obviously this isn't the case. He wants the team to push the pace more now. Doc runs the team, not Tommy, and I doubt he minds Rondo slowing down the game (when there's no good transition opportunity) as much as you do.
You do realize that Doc has been calling out Rondo to play with more speed, to push the pace, to stop walking the ball up, to remain aggressive for 6 years or so now right?
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I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.
I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.
I actually like the way we look when we push the ball up the floor, start our offense early in the shot clock, and work the ball around. The problem is that we aren't effective in doing the latter because Rondo is a liability when he's off the ball. I remember earlier in his career he used to roam the baseline, similar to Bradley, more on offense when we were running stuff for others. That Rondo pounding the ball, while others work off screens, stuff is simply maddening. It makes our offense too stale and much easier to defend.
He's held to a higher standard because we know what he's capable of on both ends of the floor. Getting lit up, more often than not, by inferior players just because you don't want to move your feet and rather poke the ball from behind is unacceptable.
Rondo is a great player, but he is not above reproach. And at the end of the day it's about the CELTICS and not about Rondo.
Sure, it's about the Celts, but your "higher standard" should still be based on reality. Everyone likes the way we look when Rondo pushes the ball up. That's because he pushes the ball up whenever it's likely we'll gain an advantage by doing so. KG and PP (and sometimes others) aren't hustling up court and all 5 defenders are usually back when he walks the ball up court.
Should Rondo run the ball up court so he can then wait for his teammates to follow him? Are we hoping to wear out KG and PP by having them sprint up court so we can get into our half court set 2 seconds earlier? I just don't see it, and I don't see the need to blame Rondo for not pushing the pace when none of his teammates are beating their defenders up the court.
Aside: I don't think Rondo's job is to push the pace as fast as possible when 2 of our best offensive players are 35 or older.
Lastly, it's not the case that Rondo gets "lit up, more often than not, by inferior players". Higher standards is one thing, hyperbolic assessments are something else.
Last night I saw suns players running the fast break 2 vs 5 or 1 vs 3 on multiple occasions and get easy layups and wide open 3 point shots because of it. We were on our heals and they attacked.
Last night you saw the team that plays at the fastest pace in the league. We're not that team, whether you like it or not. News flash, not every team wants to play racehorse basketball. Look at the Spurs, for example. They push the ball whenever possible and play at almost the fastest pace in the league. 4-5 years ago (maybe even more recently) they were a grind it out team that played at close to the *slowest* pace in the league.
What do you think changed? Do you think that, after 8+ years, Pop finally got through to Parker and the others and got them to play how he wanted them to since they were rookies? Obviously this isn't the case. He wants the team to push the pace more now. Doc runs the team, not Tommy, and I doubt he minds Rondo slowing down the game (when there's no good transition opportunity) as much as you do.
You do realize that Doc has been calling out Rondo to play with more speed, to push the pace, to stop walking the ball up, to remain aggressive for 6 years or so now right?
Sure, I'm aware that he comments on issues that crop up in Rondo's game on occasion. I would hope that you realize that if Doc said that Rondo needed to be more assertive on offense last January and says it again tomorrow that it doesn't mean that he's been unhappy with Rondo's aggressiveness for that entire year. You must have seen all of Doc's quotes last year about putting more of the offense in Rondo's hands and giving him more freedom on offense. Are you assuming that what Doc really meant was "I don't like the speed or pace that Rondo plays at and it bothers me that he slows the game down at times so I decided to give him more freedom and control to play how he wants (and I don't)"?
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imo Rondo's effort level is a non-issue. If you want to talk about mileage---has any player at this stage of his career played more minutes than Rondo? including high octane deep runs into the playoffs every year, than Rondo?----that is another story.
It's time to get Rondo a good backup pure PG who can split the minutes with him, an Andre Miller, Chauncey Billups, Jarret Jack, Jose Calderone. I guess this year we'll fly with Jet, but ideally Jet would back up the 2 next to someone like Jarret Jack. As Courtney Lee is doing well right now, just stand pat I guess. But I generally agree with Doc when he says we need a backup PG.
Regarding playing fast or slow, we're going to need to be good at playing slow verses Miami's defense. That's not a team we can run off the floor....here and there mabye but not continuosly. If it happened I'd be thrilled, but with two old guys at starter minutes int the playoffs it won't be in the starter's repetoire...
Rondo should get some good rest before the playoffs so he can do his thing when we get there....
I know I know these guys aren't supposed to get tired. but they do and we've seen it more than once.
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imo Rondo's effort level is a non-issue. If you want to talk about mileage---has any player at this stage of his career played more minutes than Rondo? including high octane deep runs into the playoffs every year, than Rondo?----that is another story.
It's time to get Rondo a good backup pure PG who can split the minutes with him, an Andre Miller, Chauncey Billups, Jarret Jack, Jose Calderone. I guess this year we'll fly with Jet, but ideally Jet would back up the 2 next to someone like Jarret Jack. As Courtney Lee is doing well right now, just stand pat I guess. But I generally agree with Doc when he says we need a backup PG.
Regarding playing fast or slow, we're going to need to be good at playing slow verses Miami's defense. That's not a team we can run off the floor....here and there mabye but not continuosly. If it happened I'd be thrilled, but with two old guys at starter minutes int the playoffs it won't be in the starter's repetoire...
Rondo should get some good rest before the playoffs so he can do his thing when we get there....
I know I know these guys aren't supposed to get tired. but they do and we've seen it more than once.
LeBroid and KoMe (PP, Ray, KG... although RR plays more mins than they do regular season, at this point).