IF, If, IIIFFFF Kyrie says he wants NYK

[Silky]

Why would Kyrie do this if he wants to leave? I'm pretty sure that other posters have pointed out that he doesn't really get any more money (or any worthwhile amount). So why would he rob New York of a top 3 pick in a 3 player draft

Money.

Kyrie like veta more than rookies. They contribute right away. So the team instead saves enough money to be able to get another difference maker on the team. They will still have knox and robinson as youth.

Nyk gains 10 mill in additional capspace

Kyrie makes more money.

Team move glut of pgs.

Team can now add another player in the 25 mill range. (If kyrie and durant take salary starting at 30 they would have close to 30 mill to spend)

Would kyrie rather

Irving
Butler
Knox
Durant
Robinson

Or

Irving
Knox
Barret
Durant
Robinson


Its a no brainer

Kyrie does not get more money in a sign-and-trade.  He's limited to 4 years Max with 5% raises in a sign-and-trade like he would be if he just signed with the Knicks. 

See question #92 of the cbafaq. 
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

See my above post

It is still of a bemefit to the knicks to do a sign and trade for Kyrie or Durant.
(Cannot see gsw wanting more salary)

Nyk savings in my deal proposed is actually about 14 million.

Their guaranteed payroll this offseason is about 22 million.

That 14 million nets them 3 max players

I don't have time to verify your math but your proposed deal isn't realistic.  No team is going to give up the #3 pick and two other young top 10 players to save 14M.  They can trade those assets for a lot more than that. 

Sign-and-trade deals have very little benefit under the new CBA which is why they've pretty much been non-existent.

For more than butler?

Dsj, frank and #3 pick nets them butler

That is what you are missing.


They are not trading that for 14 mill capspace....that capspace becomes a 25-30 mill dollar player

[Celtics4ever]

Too much NBA live in this trade post, this is not a video game.

[Somebody]

If he wants NYK we can do nothing to stop him from leaving on a Bosman to the Knicks.

[jambr380]

No reason for the Knicks to trade us anything (especially #3) if all they want to do is clear some cap space. Trading #3, DSJ, etc for future picks would be about the easiest thing in the world to do.

What I do hope happens if Kyrie decides to leave, is that he does a sign and trade with his new team for a protected 2nd (or whatever) so that we get back a huge TPE. That would allow us to essentially preserve our cap space since we are over the cap (in a trade anyway). I am surprised more stars leaving their former teams don't do this. It doesn't take away assets from their new team, but doesn't leave their old team high and dry.

Honestly, the NBA should give teams this TPE anyway - since it's just a technicality and it's the only sport that doesn't protect teams from losing players - but that is a discussion for another day.

[Fafnir]

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q94

94. Why would teams or players want to do a sign-and-trade?
Teams benefit because they can get something in return for players they otherwise would lose to free agency. For players the benefits are limited, because a player can receive no bigger contract via sign-and-trade than he can get by signing with his new team directly (four years, 5% raises), and can receive a larger Bird contract or Designated Veteran contract only when staying with his previous team. It also is much simpler for the player to sign directly with his new team, as a sign-and-trade has to be agreed to by three parties rather than two. A player really only needs to seek a sign-and-trade if he wants to go to a team that is capped-out (or doesn't have enough cap room to give the player a high enough salary) and can't sign him directly.

The Knicks are not going to give up things to sign Kyrie when they have the cap space to do so outright. They don't want salary relief once their max FAs are signed, they'll want veterans to help build out the roster.

They might trade the 3rd pick and Smith, but if they do it will be for other good players to win right now with FA #1/FA #2

[nickagneta]

There is no incentive for Durant or Irving to take significantly less money to do this. You are talking about, at minimum depending on length of contract, Kyrie giving up nearly $3 million and Durant $8 million. If the years on the sign and trade are guaranteed for more years, multiply by the number of years the amount those players are giving up.

Durant gave up millions to sign that first contract with GSW and signed short contracts with the explicit goal of signing a four year deal at 35% of the cap this year. That was the entire purpose of his short contracts in GSW...to cash in now.

And given Durant just had an injury scare, he is, in no way, shape or form going to risk not signing that contract right now. You would be asking him to give up at minimum $8 million hoping he doesn't have a bad injury so he can opt out after one year to sign that contract he has been aiming to get. But if he injures himself badly, he probably would not opt out meaning losing another $8 million per year. If I am Durant's agent I laugh at all this, point out how much money he is losing, how much more he could lose if injured and tell him sign elsewhere because the Knicks are morons.

Kyrie gave up $3.5 to get to Boston by waiving his trade kicker. Now you want him to give up another $2.7 million, at a minimum to go to NY. Kyrie is a bit injury prone. Therefore, Kyrie will have the same concerns about injury risk possibly costing him more long term money.

Those players will not do that. No way.

And that's not to mention that the Knicks could save that $11 million by just outright signing those players to contracts at the levels you suggested without needing to dump a #3 pick and Smith. But Durant and Irving would never sign for $30 million, so there would be no incentive to dump Smith and the pick because after signing those max contracts, there won't be enough cap space to warrant saving more money by salary dumping Smith and the pick to attempt to create enough space for another star player.

Simply put, this trade lacks logic and common sense. There is exactly no chance of it ever happening.

[Fafnir]

They are not trading that for 14 mill capspace....that capspace becomes a 25-30 mill dollar player

Salary cap is 109.

Durant is a 35% max 38 million
Kyrie is a 30% max 32.7 million

38.3 million left, but wait there are roster charges for 11 other players even if they trade EVERYONE else. So that's another 8 million or so off. Realistically they aren't striping everything down to spare parts.

You can't get a third max FA unless they all agree to not take the max (ala LBJ/Wade/Bosh)

[A Future of Stevens]

What happened to Tatum?

[crimcartel]

They are not trading that for 14 mill capspace....that capspace becomes a 25-30 mill dollar player

Salary cap is 109.

Durant is a 35% max 38 million
Kyrie is a 30% max 32.7 million

38.3 million left, but wait there are roster charges for 11 other players even if they trade EVERYONE else. So that's another 8 million or so off. Realistically they aren't striping everything down to spare parts.

You can't get a third max FA unless they all agree to not take the max (ala LBJ/Wade/Bosh)

So it comes down to do the knicks want ad and kd or Kd and kyrie...

[Silky]

If he wants NYK we can do nothing to stop him from leaving on a Bosman to the Knicks.

I agree, if he wants NYK he will go.

This is selling NYK and Kyrie on a 3rd star.

That is the deal. Max slot for a wing players as well. And that costs Frank, DSJ and dropping from #3 to Number 14 in the draft

[Silky]

They are not trading that for 14 mill capspace....that capspace becomes a 25-30 mill dollar player

Salary cap is 109.

Durant is a 35% max 38 million
Kyrie is a 30% max 32.7 million

38.3 million left, but wait there are roster charges for 11 other players even if they trade EVERYONE else. So that's another 8 million or so off. Realistically they aren't striping everything down to spare parts.

You can't get a third max FA unless they all agree to not take the max (ala LBJ/Wade/Bosh)

Which is what I posted.

right now guaranteed salary for their team is 21 mill for next season (not including picks.)
Lets say both Kyrie and Durant sign at a 5% discount off Max
66.73 mill combined.
Add the 21 mill
88 million in salary. leaving 21 million in space.

do the trade I proposed and assume that Kyrie and Durant sign at their max amounts.
70.7 mill
21 mill - Guaranteed contracts
-13 mill - deal proposed

Total Salary 78.7 mill....enough for a 30 mill per year player to join them. (Butler)

We already know Butler likes and wants to play with Kyrie.

so NYK has, before minimum ring chaser signings and pick 14 from Boston

Irving
Knox
Butler
Durant
Robinson



If I was GM of NYK I like that alot more than

Irving/DSJ/Frank
Knox
Barrett
Durant
Robinson

[Silky]

There is no incentive for Durant or Irving to take significantly less money to do this. You are talking about, at minimum depending on length of contract, Kyrie giving up nearly $3 million and Durant $8 million. If the years on the sign and trade are guaranteed for more years, multiply by the number of years the amount those players are giving up.

Durant gave up millions to sign that first contract with GSW and signed short contracts with the explicit goal of signing a four year deal at 35% of the cap this year. That was the entire purpose of his short contracts in GSW...to cash in now.

And given Durant just had an injury scare, he is, in no way, shape or form going to risk not signing that contract right now. You would be asking him to give up at minimum $8 million hoping he doesn't have a bad injury so he can opt out after one year to sign that contract he has been aiming to get. But if he injures himself badly, he probably would not opt out meaning losing another $8 million per year. If I am Durant's agent I laugh at all this, point out how much money he is losing, how much more he could lose if injured and tell him sign elsewhere because the Knicks are morons.

Kyrie gave up $3.5 to get to Boston by waiving his trade kicker. Now you want him to give up another $2.7 million, at a minimum to go to NY. Kyrie is a bit injury prone. Therefore, Kyrie will have the same concerns about injury risk possibly costing him more long term money.

Those players will not do that. No way.

And that's not to mention that the Knicks could save that $11 million by just outright signing those players to contracts at the levels you suggested without needing to dump a #3 pick and Smith. But Durant and Irving would never sign for $30 million, so there would be no incentive to dump Smith and the pick because after signing those max contracts, there won't be enough cap space to warrant saving more money by salary dumping Smith and the pick to attempt to create enough space for another star player.

Simply put, this trade lacks logic and common sense. There is exactly no chance of it ever happening.

As I pointed out above, there is no need in anyone taking a paycut if NYK cut salary in a trade like this. I was posting on my phone earlier and didnt complete the math out in posts.


They would have to take less to get a 3rd star if they did no trade.

[Silky]

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q94

94. Why would teams or players want to do a sign-and-trade?
Teams benefit because they can get something in return for players they otherwise would lose to free agency. For players the benefits are limited, because a player can receive no bigger contract via sign-and-trade than he can get by signing with his new team directly (four years, 5% raises), and can receive a larger Bird contract or Designated Veteran contract only when staying with his previous team. It also is much simpler for the player to sign directly with his new team, as a sign-and-trade has to be agreed to by three parties rather than two. A player really only needs to seek a sign-and-trade if he wants to go to a team that is capped-out (or doesn't have enough cap room to give the player a high enough salary) and can't sign him directly.

The Knicks are not going to give up things to sign Kyrie when they have the cap space to do so outright. They don't want salary relief once their max FAs are signed, they'll want veterans to help build out the roster.

They might trade the 3rd pick and Smith, but if they do it will be for other good players to win right now with FA #1/FA #2

They would make the trade in order to add the 3rd STAR player.

I thought I made that very clear.

Yeah, they can completely sign Kyrie and keep the pick and players and go into the season with 4 point guards, Durant and  Irving as the only vet contributors and rely heavily on 2 second year players and a rookie.

or

They can free space, still get their guys and add a third star

[Silky]

No reason for the Knicks to trade us anything (especially #3) if all they want to do is clear some cap space. Trading #3, DSJ, etc for future picks would be about the easiest thing in the world to do.

What I do hope happens if Kyrie decides to leave, is that he does a sign and trade with his new team for a protected 2nd (or whatever) so that we get back a huge TPE. That would allow us to essentially preserve our cap space since we are over the cap (in a trade anyway). I am surprised more stars leaving their former teams don't do this. It doesn't take away assets from their new team, but doesn't leave their old team high and dry.

Honestly, the NBA should give teams this TPE anyway - since it's just a technicality and it's the only sport that doesn't protect teams from losing players - but that is a discussion for another day.

They could, but they are getting a pick from Boston in this trade still.

in fact boston could add more than a pick if needed.

So they can dump for nothing, or something for the future, or they can add cheap rookies now to fill out a roster that has 3 superstars on it

[nickagneta]

There is no incentive for Durant or Irving to take significantly less money to do this. You are talking about, at minimum depending on length of contract, Kyrie giving up nearly $3 million and Durant $8 million. If the years on the sign and trade are guaranteed for more years, multiply by the number of years the amount those players are giving up.

Durant gave up millions to sign that first contract with GSW and signed short contracts with the explicit goal of signing a four year deal at 35% of the cap this year. That was the entire purpose of his short contracts in GSW...to cash in now.

And given Durant just had an injury scare, he is, in no way, shape or form going to risk not signing that contract right now. You would be asking him to give up at minimum $8 million hoping he doesn't have a bad injury so he can opt out after one year to sign that contract he has been aiming to get. But if he injures himself badly, he probably would not opt out meaning losing another $8 million per year. If I am Durant's agent I laugh at all this, point out how much money he is losing, how much more he could lose if injured and tell him sign elsewhere because the Knicks are morons.

Kyrie gave up $3.5 to get to Boston by waiving his trade kicker. Now you want him to give up another $2.7 million, at a minimum to go to NY. Kyrie is a bit injury prone. Therefore, Kyrie will have the same concerns about injury risk possibly costing him more long term money.

Those players will not do that. No way.

And that's not to mention that the Knicks could save that $11 million by just outright signing those players to contracts at the levels you suggested without needing to dump a #3 pick and Smith. But Durant and Irving would never sign for $30 million, so there would be no incentive to dump Smith and the pick because after signing those max contracts, there won't be enough cap space to warrant saving more money by salary dumping Smith and the pick to attempt to create enough space for another star player.

Simply put, this trade lacks logic and common sense. There is exactly no chance of it ever happening.

As I pointed out above, there is no need in anyone taking a paycut if NYK cut salary in a trade like this. I was posting on my phone earlier and didnt complete the math out in posts.


They would have to take less to get a 3rd star if they did no trade.

Your math is wrong. I will assume not picking up any options and renouncing every free agent and releasing all player with unguaranteed contracts.

Ntilikina $4.855
Smith $4.463
Knox $4.381
Robinson $1.559

So total for four players $15.258

Add Thomas's million that is guaranteed and Noah's $6.431 that was stretched and salary is $22.689

Add in the cap hold for the the #3 pick of $6.524

Then add 7 empty roster spot cap holds of 900,000 each or $6.3

Total salary used $35.513

Total cap space available $73.487

Kyrie would sign for $32.7

Durant would sign for $38.15

Add those salaries in and total Knicks salary after signing Durant and Kyrie is $104.563

Total cap space left is $ 4.437 million

So:

1. Stop with the nonsense that Durant and Kyrie will take less money. They won't. So these are the real numbers you are dealing with.

2. Stop with the sign and trade nonsense. It's just unnecessary. The Knicks can just trade any of their players and the picks. And get more than what you are stating in a sign and trade. Besides, why try to help other teams? Dumb move.

3. Even if the Knicks salary dump every player except Kyrie and Durant and dump the #3 pick a total of $21.782 you are only saving $17.282 million because their roster slots become empty meaning they are replaced with $4.5 million in empty roster spot holds.

This means if they sign Kyrie and Durant and afterward empty out every other slot all the Knicks can open up is $23.519 million. That is not near enough for a max level free agent.

And if the Knicks do clear everyone but Durant and Kyrie and use the $23.519 million to sign a player or players they then would have to fill 9 roster spots using only a room exception and vet min contracts. That's just not smart business wise.

And how the heck do you sell Durant and Kyrie on this? "Oh, we are going to wash the roster clean after signing you two, use the remaining cap space to sign a player, but not another star level player and the rest of the roster will be vet minimum guys." Good luck selling that long term plan of success to them.

So again, your math is wrong, your logic is wrong, and this makes no business sense whatsoever.