Annual GM Survey

[Jvalin]

Jokic is the best offensive player in the league right now.

I think you are selling him short by saying he was the best offensive player. Imo, he was the best offensive player in the NBA last season. When all is said and done, I believe he'll be considered a top 6 Center of all time. Possibly even higher than that depending on how many ring(s) he wins (if any). That said, I think Luka will become better than Jokic for 2 reasons:

1. Luka is only 22. The sky is the limit for him.
2. Not all positions are equally important when it comes to defense. It's easier to hide a (s)wing on defense than it is to hide a Center. It's even easier to hide a Point Guard. The opposite goes on offense. It's easier to hide an abysmal offensive Center (for instance, rim runners) than it is to hide a (s)wing. It's practically impossible to hide a Point Guard who cannot shoot the ball. Look no further than Ben Simmons, which is why I wouldn't use him at PG in the half court. Jokic is a PG on offense and a Center on defense. In a vacuum, he's a more effective defender than Luka, but he plays at a key defensive position. You guys keep complaining about Luka's defense. In fact, it's relatively easy to hide him on defense.

It is one of the complaints I had with IT4 and Irving when they were in Boston i.e. great offensive players (and Luka is way better than them), but horrid defenders (luka may be worse than them).

Come on man. Are you seriously comparing IT4 to Luka? IT4 was possibly the worst defender in the NBA. Luka is nowhere near that bad. All advanced defensive metrics suggest he's a passable defender.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: +0.6 (this is actually above average)
Defensive RAPTOR: -0.8 (ranked 164th out of 250 players, so let's say a bit below average)
Defensive rating: 107.0 (ranked 319th out of 505 players. Again, a bit below average.)

[Moranis]

Jokic is the best offensive player in the league right now.

I think you are selling him short by saying he was the best offensive player. Imo, he was the best offensive player in the NBA last season. When all is said and done, I believe he'll be considered a top 6 Center of all time. Possibly even higher than that depending on how many ring(s) he wins (if any). That said, I think Luka will become better than Jokic for 2 reasons:

1. Luka is only 22. The sky is the limit for him.
2. Not all positions are equally important when it comes to defense. It's easier to hide a (s)wing on defense than it is to hide a Center. It's even easier to hide a Point Guard. The opposite goes on offense. It's easier to hide an abysmal offensive Center (for instance, rim runners) than it is to hide a (s)wing. It's practically impossible to hide a Point Guard who cannot shoot the ball. Look no further than Ben Simmons, which is why I wouldn't use him at PG in the half court. Jokic is a PG on offense and a Center on defense. In a vacuum, he's a more effective defender than Luka, but he plays at a key defensive position. You guys keep complaining about Luka's defense. In fact, it's relatively easy to hide him on defense.

It is one of the complaints I had with IT4 and Irving when they were in Boston i.e. great offensive players (and Luka is way better than them), but horrid defenders (luka may be worse than them).

Come on man. Are you seriously comparing IT4 to Luka? IT4 was possibly the worst defender in the NBA. Luka is nowhere near that bad. All advanced defensive metrics suggest he's a passable defender.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: +0.6 (this is actually above average)
Defensive RAPTOR: -0.8 (ranked 164th out of 250 players, so let's say a bit below average)
Defensive rating: 107.0 (ranked 319th out of 505 players. Again, a bit below average.)

Luka is a terrible defender.  It is a large reason why the Mavs don't drop off all that much when he is on the bench despite the fact that he is basically the offense when he is on the floor.  Guys that are super engines of offensive output and importance to the team, the team often collapses without them in the game, but that just hasn't been Dallas, because he is such a poor defender. 

Doesn't Defensive RAPTOR have Jakob Poeltl as the 3rd best defender in the sport?  Alex Caruso is 12th.  Marcus Smart was 0.1 in that stat.  And I know you can do that with all stats, but the RAPTOR ones always have some really strange results, which leads to the conclusion I put like almost no stock in it.  Luka is quite simply a terrible defender.  He certainly could be better, but he provides very little effort (much like Irving). 

[gouki88]

Jokic is the best offensive player in the league right now.

I think you are selling him short by saying he was the best offensive player. Imo, he was the best offensive player in the NBA last season. When all is said and done, I believe he'll be considered a top 6 Center of all time. Possibly even higher than that depending on how many ring(s) he wins (if any). That said, I think Luka will become better than Jokic for 2 reasons:

1. Luka is only 22. The sky is the limit for him.
2. Not all positions are equally important when it comes to defense. It's easier to hide a (s)wing on defense than it is to hide a Center. It's even easier to hide a Point Guard. The opposite goes on offense. It's easier to hide an abysmal offensive Center (for instance, rim runners) than it is to hide a (s)wing. It's practically impossible to hide a Point Guard who cannot shoot the ball. Look no further than Ben Simmons, which is why I wouldn't use him at PG in the half court. Jokic is a PG on offense and a Center on defense. In a vacuum, he's a more effective defender than Luka, but he plays at a key defensive position. You guys keep complaining about Luka's defense. In fact, it's relatively easy to hide him on defense.

It is one of the complaints I had with IT4 and Irving when they were in Boston i.e. great offensive players (and Luka is way better than them), but horrid defenders (luka may be worse than them).

Come on man. Are you seriously comparing IT4 to Luka? IT4 was possibly the worst defender in the NBA. Luka is nowhere near that bad. All advanced defensive metrics suggest he's a passable defender.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: +0.6 (this is actually above average)
Defensive RAPTOR: -0.8 (ranked 164th out of 250 players, so let's say a bit below average)
Defensive rating: 107.0 (ranked 319th out of 505 players. Again, a bit below average.)

Luka is a terrible defender.  It is a large reason why the Mavs don't drop off all that much when he is on the bench despite the fact that he is basically the offense when he is on the floor.  Guys that are super engines of offensive output and importance to the team, the team often collapses without them in the game, but that just hasn't been Dallas, because he is such a poor defender. 

Doesn't Defensive RAPTOR have Jakob Poeltl as the 3rd best defender in the sport?  Alex Caruso is 12th.  Marcus Smart was 0.1 in that stat.  And I know you can do that with all stats, but the RAPTOR ones always have some really strange results, which leads to the conclusion I put like almost no stock in it.  Luka is quite simply a terrible defender.  He certainly could be better, but he provides very little effort (much like Irving).

Luka is so much better on defence than IT, chiefly because he's about a foot taller than him. He's also better than Kyrie.

[Moranis]

Jokic is the best offensive player in the league right now.

I think you are selling him short by saying he was the best offensive player. Imo, he was the best offensive player in the NBA last season. When all is said and done, I believe he'll be considered a top 6 Center of all time. Possibly even higher than that depending on how many ring(s) he wins (if any). That said, I think Luka will become better than Jokic for 2 reasons:

1. Luka is only 22. The sky is the limit for him.
2. Not all positions are equally important when it comes to defense. It's easier to hide a (s)wing on defense than it is to hide a Center. It's even easier to hide a Point Guard. The opposite goes on offense. It's easier to hide an abysmal offensive Center (for instance, rim runners) than it is to hide a (s)wing. It's practically impossible to hide a Point Guard who cannot shoot the ball. Look no further than Ben Simmons, which is why I wouldn't use him at PG in the half court. Jokic is a PG on offense and a Center on defense. In a vacuum, he's a more effective defender than Luka, but he plays at a key defensive position. You guys keep complaining about Luka's defense. In fact, it's relatively easy to hide him on defense.

It is one of the complaints I had with IT4 and Irving when they were in Boston i.e. great offensive players (and Luka is way better than them), but horrid defenders (luka may be worse than them).

Come on man. Are you seriously comparing IT4 to Luka? IT4 was possibly the worst defender in the NBA. Luka is nowhere near that bad. All advanced defensive metrics suggest he's a passable defender.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: +0.6 (this is actually above average)
Defensive RAPTOR: -0.8 (ranked 164th out of 250 players, so let's say a bit below average)
Defensive rating: 107.0 (ranked 319th out of 505 players. Again, a bit below average.)

Luka is a terrible defender.  It is a large reason why the Mavs don't drop off all that much when he is on the bench despite the fact that he is basically the offense when he is on the floor.  Guys that are super engines of offensive output and importance to the team, the team often collapses without them in the game, but that just hasn't been Dallas, because he is such a poor defender. 

Doesn't Defensive RAPTOR have Jakob Poeltl as the 3rd best defender in the sport?  Alex Caruso is 12th.  Marcus Smart was 0.1 in that stat.  And I know you can do that with all stats, but the RAPTOR ones always have some really strange results, which leads to the conclusion I put like almost no stock in it.  Luka is quite simply a terrible defender.  He certainly could be better, but he provides very little effort (much like Irving).

Luka is so much better on defence than IT, chiefly because he's about a foot taller than him. He's also better than Kyrie.

His size definitely helps, but he gives no effort at all and it isn't like he is an uber athlete. 

[Kernewek]

It's practically impossible to hide a Point Guard who cannot shoot the ball. Look no further than Ben Simmons

On the other hand, Ben Simmons seems to have done a pretty good job of hiding from the 76ers so far this season.

[gouki88]

Jokic is the best offensive player in the league right now.

I think you are selling him short by saying he was the best offensive player. Imo, he was the best offensive player in the NBA last season. When all is said and done, I believe he'll be considered a top 6 Center of all time. Possibly even higher than that depending on how many ring(s) he wins (if any). That said, I think Luka will become better than Jokic for 2 reasons:

1. Luka is only 22. The sky is the limit for him.
2. Not all positions are equally important when it comes to defense. It's easier to hide a (s)wing on defense than it is to hide a Center. It's even easier to hide a Point Guard. The opposite goes on offense. It's easier to hide an abysmal offensive Center (for instance, rim runners) than it is to hide a (s)wing. It's practically impossible to hide a Point Guard who cannot shoot the ball. Look no further than Ben Simmons, which is why I wouldn't use him at PG in the half court. Jokic is a PG on offense and a Center on defense. In a vacuum, he's a more effective defender than Luka, but he plays at a key defensive position. You guys keep complaining about Luka's defense. In fact, it's relatively easy to hide him on defense.

It is one of the complaints I had with IT4 and Irving when they were in Boston i.e. great offensive players (and Luka is way better than them), but horrid defenders (luka may be worse than them).

Come on man. Are you seriously comparing IT4 to Luka? IT4 was possibly the worst defender in the NBA. Luka is nowhere near that bad. All advanced defensive metrics suggest he's a passable defender.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: +0.6 (this is actually above average)
Defensive RAPTOR: -0.8 (ranked 164th out of 250 players, so let's say a bit below average)
Defensive rating: 107.0 (ranked 319th out of 505 players. Again, a bit below average.)

Luka is a terrible defender.  It is a large reason why the Mavs don't drop off all that much when he is on the bench despite the fact that he is basically the offense when he is on the floor.  Guys that are super engines of offensive output and importance to the team, the team often collapses without them in the game, but that just hasn't been Dallas, because he is such a poor defender. 

Doesn't Defensive RAPTOR have Jakob Poeltl as the 3rd best defender in the sport?  Alex Caruso is 12th.  Marcus Smart was 0.1 in that stat.  And I know you can do that with all stats, but the RAPTOR ones always have some really strange results, which leads to the conclusion I put like almost no stock in it.  Luka is quite simply a terrible defender.  He certainly could be better, but he provides very little effort (much like Irving).

Luka is so much better on defence than IT, chiefly because he's about a foot taller than him. He's also better than Kyrie.

His size definitely helps, but he gives no effort at all and it isn't like he is an uber athlete.

I think his size enables him to be hidden on the worst perimeter player regardless of their size. IT4 and Kyrie didn't have that luxury, as if the worst opposition player was a wing they'd be screwed

[Moranis]

Jokic is the best offensive player in the league right now.

I think you are selling him short by saying he was the best offensive player. Imo, he was the best offensive player in the NBA last season. When all is said and done, I believe he'll be considered a top 6 Center of all time. Possibly even higher than that depending on how many ring(s) he wins (if any). That said, I think Luka will become better than Jokic for 2 reasons:

1. Luka is only 22. The sky is the limit for him.
2. Not all positions are equally important when it comes to defense. It's easier to hide a (s)wing on defense than it is to hide a Center. It's even easier to hide a Point Guard. The opposite goes on offense. It's easier to hide an abysmal offensive Center (for instance, rim runners) than it is to hide a (s)wing. It's practically impossible to hide a Point Guard who cannot shoot the ball. Look no further than Ben Simmons, which is why I wouldn't use him at PG in the half court. Jokic is a PG on offense and a Center on defense. In a vacuum, he's a more effective defender than Luka, but he plays at a key defensive position. You guys keep complaining about Luka's defense. In fact, it's relatively easy to hide him on defense.

It is one of the complaints I had with IT4 and Irving when they were in Boston i.e. great offensive players (and Luka is way better than them), but horrid defenders (luka may be worse than them).

Come on man. Are you seriously comparing IT4 to Luka? IT4 was possibly the worst defender in the NBA. Luka is nowhere near that bad. All advanced defensive metrics suggest he's a passable defender.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: +0.6 (this is actually above average)
Defensive RAPTOR: -0.8 (ranked 164th out of 250 players, so let's say a bit below average)
Defensive rating: 107.0 (ranked 319th out of 505 players. Again, a bit below average.)

Luka is a terrible defender.  It is a large reason why the Mavs don't drop off all that much when he is on the bench despite the fact that he is basically the offense when he is on the floor.  Guys that are super engines of offensive output and importance to the team, the team often collapses without them in the game, but that just hasn't been Dallas, because he is such a poor defender. 

Doesn't Defensive RAPTOR have Jakob Poeltl as the 3rd best defender in the sport?  Alex Caruso is 12th.  Marcus Smart was 0.1 in that stat.  And I know you can do that with all stats, but the RAPTOR ones always have some really strange results, which leads to the conclusion I put like almost no stock in it.  Luka is quite simply a terrible defender.  He certainly could be better, but he provides very little effort (much like Irving).

Luka is so much better on defence than IT, chiefly because he's about a foot taller than him. He's also better than Kyrie.

His size definitely helps, but he gives no effort at all and it isn't like he is an uber athlete.

I think his size enables him to be hidden on the worst perimeter player regardless of their size. IT4 and Kyrie didn't have that luxury, as if the worst opposition player was a wing they'd be screwed

All true, it just really bothers me he shows no effort at all.  For a guy that has the tools to be among the all time greats, the lack of effort just isn't a good sign.  he is obviously talented enough to win a MVP, but he isn't going to be in the group of special room players without trying on defense. 

[gouki88]

Jokic is the best offensive player in the league right now.

I think you are selling him short by saying he was the best offensive player. Imo, he was the best offensive player in the NBA last season. When all is said and done, I believe he'll be considered a top 6 Center of all time. Possibly even higher than that depending on how many ring(s) he wins (if any). That said, I think Luka will become better than Jokic for 2 reasons:

1. Luka is only 22. The sky is the limit for him.
2. Not all positions are equally important when it comes to defense. It's easier to hide a (s)wing on defense than it is to hide a Center. It's even easier to hide a Point Guard. The opposite goes on offense. It's easier to hide an abysmal offensive Center (for instance, rim runners) than it is to hide a (s)wing. It's practically impossible to hide a Point Guard who cannot shoot the ball. Look no further than Ben Simmons, which is why I wouldn't use him at PG in the half court. Jokic is a PG on offense and a Center on defense. In a vacuum, he's a more effective defender than Luka, but he plays at a key defensive position. You guys keep complaining about Luka's defense. In fact, it's relatively easy to hide him on defense.

It is one of the complaints I had with IT4 and Irving when they were in Boston i.e. great offensive players (and Luka is way better than them), but horrid defenders (luka may be worse than them).

Come on man. Are you seriously comparing IT4 to Luka? IT4 was possibly the worst defender in the NBA. Luka is nowhere near that bad. All advanced defensive metrics suggest he's a passable defender.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: +0.6 (this is actually above average)
Defensive RAPTOR: -0.8 (ranked 164th out of 250 players, so let's say a bit below average)
Defensive rating: 107.0 (ranked 319th out of 505 players. Again, a bit below average.)

Luka is a terrible defender.  It is a large reason why the Mavs don't drop off all that much when he is on the bench despite the fact that he is basically the offense when he is on the floor.  Guys that are super engines of offensive output and importance to the team, the team often collapses without them in the game, but that just hasn't been Dallas, because he is such a poor defender. 

Doesn't Defensive RAPTOR have Jakob Poeltl as the 3rd best defender in the sport?  Alex Caruso is 12th.  Marcus Smart was 0.1 in that stat.  And I know you can do that with all stats, but the RAPTOR ones always have some really strange results, which leads to the conclusion I put like almost no stock in it.  Luka is quite simply a terrible defender.  He certainly could be better, but he provides very little effort (much like Irving).

Luka is so much better on defence than IT, chiefly because he's about a foot taller than him. He's also better than Kyrie.

His size definitely helps, but he gives no effort at all and it isn't like he is an uber athlete.

I think his size enables him to be hidden on the worst perimeter player regardless of their size. IT4 and Kyrie didn't have that luxury, as if the worst opposition player was a wing they'd be screwed

All true, it just really bothers me he shows no effort at all.  For a guy that has the tools to be among the all time greats, the lack of effort just isn't a good sign.  he is obviously talented enough to win a MVP, but he isn't going to be in the group of special room players without trying on defense.

I think it would be mitigated by better coaching. Implement a team offence (Dallas' offence was essentially just give it to Luka) and allow Luka to have some energy left over for defence. His usage was monstrous, even if it was somewhat warranted by his talent. He looks to be slimmer this season, so maybe his ability to put effort in on defence will be improved.

I hate that Kidd got the job there. Do not rate him at all. Would have loved to see Dave Joerger get another go

[Moranis]

Jokic is the best offensive player in the league right now.

I think you are selling him short by saying he was the best offensive player. Imo, he was the best offensive player in the NBA last season. When all is said and done, I believe he'll be considered a top 6 Center of all time. Possibly even higher than that depending on how many ring(s) he wins (if any). That said, I think Luka will become better than Jokic for 2 reasons:

1. Luka is only 22. The sky is the limit for him.
2. Not all positions are equally important when it comes to defense. It's easier to hide a (s)wing on defense than it is to hide a Center. It's even easier to hide a Point Guard. The opposite goes on offense. It's easier to hide an abysmal offensive Center (for instance, rim runners) than it is to hide a (s)wing. It's practically impossible to hide a Point Guard who cannot shoot the ball. Look no further than Ben Simmons, which is why I wouldn't use him at PG in the half court. Jokic is a PG on offense and a Center on defense. In a vacuum, he's a more effective defender than Luka, but he plays at a key defensive position. You guys keep complaining about Luka's defense. In fact, it's relatively easy to hide him on defense.

It is one of the complaints I had with IT4 and Irving when they were in Boston i.e. great offensive players (and Luka is way better than them), but horrid defenders (luka may be worse than them).

Come on man. Are you seriously comparing IT4 to Luka? IT4 was possibly the worst defender in the NBA. Luka is nowhere near that bad. All advanced defensive metrics suggest he's a passable defender.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: +0.6 (this is actually above average)
Defensive RAPTOR: -0.8 (ranked 164th out of 250 players, so let's say a bit below average)
Defensive rating: 107.0 (ranked 319th out of 505 players. Again, a bit below average.)

Luka is a terrible defender.  It is a large reason why the Mavs don't drop off all that much when he is on the bench despite the fact that he is basically the offense when he is on the floor.  Guys that are super engines of offensive output and importance to the team, the team often collapses without them in the game, but that just hasn't been Dallas, because he is such a poor defender. 

Doesn't Defensive RAPTOR have Jakob Poeltl as the 3rd best defender in the sport?  Alex Caruso is 12th.  Marcus Smart was 0.1 in that stat.  And I know you can do that with all stats, but the RAPTOR ones always have some really strange results, which leads to the conclusion I put like almost no stock in it.  Luka is quite simply a terrible defender.  He certainly could be better, but he provides very little effort (much like Irving).

Luka is so much better on defence than IT, chiefly because he's about a foot taller than him. He's also better than Kyrie.

His size definitely helps, but he gives no effort at all and it isn't like he is an uber athlete.

I think his size enables him to be hidden on the worst perimeter player regardless of their size. IT4 and Kyrie didn't have that luxury, as if the worst opposition player was a wing they'd be screwed

All true, it just really bothers me he shows no effort at all.  For a guy that has the tools to be among the all time greats, the lack of effort just isn't a good sign.  he is obviously talented enough to win a MVP, but he isn't going to be in the group of special room players without trying on defense.

I think it would be mitigated by better coaching. Implement a team offence (Dallas' offence was essentially just give it to Luka) and allow Luka to have some energy left over for defence. His usage was monstrous, even if it was somewhat warranted by his talent. He looks to be slimmer this season, so maybe his ability to put effort in on defence will be improved.

I hate that Kidd got the job there. Do not rate him at all. Would have loved to see Dave Joerger get another go

Maybe it is coaching, but Luka also has problems in the lockerroom and with other teammates.  I think he just has attitude issues.  He is obviously very young so has plenty of time to get it figured out, but sometimes guys don't get it figured out either.

Kidd seems like a poor coach, but Luka might need the more militant style that Kidd brings.  Giannis said Kidd really brought out the best of him even if his style wasn't always appreciated.  Maybe Kidd can do that with Luka as well.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

wrong thread

[moiso]

Jokic is the best offensive player in the league right now.

I think you are selling him short by saying he was the best offensive player. Imo, he was the best offensive player in the NBA last season. When all is said and done, I believe he'll be considered a top 6 Center of all time. Possibly even higher than that depending on how many ring(s) he wins (if any). That said, I think Luka will become better than Jokic for 2 reasons:

1. Luka is only 22. The sky is the limit for him.
2. Not all positions are equally important when it comes to defense. It's easier to hide a (s)wing on defense than it is to hide a Center. It's even easier to hide a Point Guard. The opposite goes on offense. It's easier to hide an abysmal offensive Center (for instance, rim runners) than it is to hide a (s)wing. It's practically impossible to hide a Point Guard who cannot shoot the ball. Look no further than Ben Simmons, which is why I wouldn't use him at PG in the half court. Jokic is a PG on offense and a Center on defense. In a vacuum, he's a more effective defender than Luka, but he plays at a key defensive position. You guys keep complaining about Luka's defense. In fact, it's relatively easy to hide him on defense.

It is one of the complaints I had with IT4 and Irving when they were in Boston i.e. great offensive players (and Luka is way better than them), but horrid defenders (luka may be worse than them).

Come on man. Are you seriously comparing IT4 to Luka? IT4 was possibly the worst defender in the NBA. Luka is nowhere near that bad. All advanced defensive metrics suggest he's a passable defender.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: +0.6 (this is actually above average)
Defensive RAPTOR: -0.8 (ranked 164th out of 250 players, so let's say a bit below average)
Defensive rating: 107.0 (ranked 319th out of 505 players. Again, a bit below average.)

Luka is a terrible defender.  It is a large reason why the Mavs don't drop off all that much when he is on the bench despite the fact that he is basically the offense when he is on the floor.  Guys that are super engines of offensive output and importance to the team, the team often collapses without them in the game, but that just hasn't been Dallas, because he is such a poor defender. 

Doesn't Defensive RAPTOR have Jakob Poeltl as the 3rd best defender in the sport?  Alex Caruso is 12th.  Marcus Smart was 0.1 in that stat.  And I know you can do that with all stats, but the RAPTOR ones always have some really strange results, which leads to the conclusion I put like almost no stock in it.  Luka is quite simply a terrible defender.  He certainly could be better, but he provides very little effort (much like Irving).

Luka is so much better on defence than IT, chiefly because he's about a foot taller than him. He's also better than Kyrie.

His size definitely helps, but he gives no effort at all and it isn't like he is an uber athlete.

I think his size enables him to be hidden on the worst perimeter player regardless of their size. IT4 and Kyrie didn't have that luxury, as if the worst opposition player was a wing they'd be screwed

All true, it just really bothers me he shows no effort at all.  For a guy that has the tools to be among the all time greats, the lack of effort just isn't a good sign.  he is obviously talented enough to win a MVP, but he isn't going to be in the group of special room players without trying on defense.

I think he has to put some effort into getting in better shape before he can exert himself on defense.

[Moranis]

Jokic is the best offensive player in the league right now.

I think you are selling him short by saying he was the best offensive player. Imo, he was the best offensive player in the NBA last season. When all is said and done, I believe he'll be considered a top 6 Center of all time. Possibly even higher than that depending on how many ring(s) he wins (if any). That said, I think Luka will become better than Jokic for 2 reasons:

1. Luka is only 22. The sky is the limit for him.
2. Not all positions are equally important when it comes to defense. It's easier to hide a (s)wing on defense than it is to hide a Center. It's even easier to hide a Point Guard. The opposite goes on offense. It's easier to hide an abysmal offensive Center (for instance, rim runners) than it is to hide a (s)wing. It's practically impossible to hide a Point Guard who cannot shoot the ball. Look no further than Ben Simmons, which is why I wouldn't use him at PG in the half court. Jokic is a PG on offense and a Center on defense. In a vacuum, he's a more effective defender than Luka, but he plays at a key defensive position. You guys keep complaining about Luka's defense. In fact, it's relatively easy to hide him on defense.

It is one of the complaints I had with IT4 and Irving when they were in Boston i.e. great offensive players (and Luka is way better than them), but horrid defenders (luka may be worse than them).

Come on man. Are you seriously comparing IT4 to Luka? IT4 was possibly the worst defender in the NBA. Luka is nowhere near that bad. All advanced defensive metrics suggest he's a passable defender.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: +0.6 (this is actually above average)
Defensive RAPTOR: -0.8 (ranked 164th out of 250 players, so let's say a bit below average)
Defensive rating: 107.0 (ranked 319th out of 505 players. Again, a bit below average.)

Luka is a terrible defender.  It is a large reason why the Mavs don't drop off all that much when he is on the bench despite the fact that he is basically the offense when he is on the floor.  Guys that are super engines of offensive output and importance to the team, the team often collapses without them in the game, but that just hasn't been Dallas, because he is such a poor defender. 

Doesn't Defensive RAPTOR have Jakob Poeltl as the 3rd best defender in the sport?  Alex Caruso is 12th.  Marcus Smart was 0.1 in that stat.  And I know you can do that with all stats, but the RAPTOR ones always have some really strange results, which leads to the conclusion I put like almost no stock in it.  Luka is quite simply a terrible defender.  He certainly could be better, but he provides very little effort (much like Irving).

Luka is so much better on defence than IT, chiefly because he's about a foot taller than him. He's also better than Kyrie.

His size definitely helps, but he gives no effort at all and it isn't like he is an uber athlete.

I think his size enables him to be hidden on the worst perimeter player regardless of their size. IT4 and Kyrie didn't have that luxury, as if the worst opposition player was a wing they'd be screwed

All true, it just really bothers me he shows no effort at all.  For a guy that has the tools to be among the all time greats, the lack of effort just isn't a good sign.  he is obviously talented enough to win a MVP, but he isn't going to be in the group of special room players without trying on defense.

I think he has to put some effort into getting in better shape before he can exert himself on defense.

That is even worse.  If he can't put in the effort to get into basketball shape, what does that say?

[nickagneta]

So Luka Doncic, a kid in his age 21 years old season, who played 34 MPG, and averaged 27.7 PPG, 8.6 APG, 8 RPG on okay efficiency, isn't in basketball shape?

Does anyone else realize how silly that sounds? Is he at his peak of physical conditioning? No, but almost no 21-22 year old professional athletes are, but to make a claim he isn't in basketball shape is absurd.

[Moranis]

So Luka Doncic, a kid in his age 21 years old season, who played 34 MPG, and averaged 27.7 PPG, 8.6 APG, 8 RPG on okay efficiency, isn't in basketball shape?

Does anyone else realize how silly that sounds? Is he at his peak of physical conditioning? No, but almost no 21-22 year old professional athletes are, but to make a claim he isn't in basketball shape is absurd.

I think he is in shape, he just doesn't put in any effort defensively. He doesn't even try to get back some of the time. 

[gouki88]

Jokic is the best offensive player in the league right now.

I think you are selling him short by saying he was the best offensive player. Imo, he was the best offensive player in the NBA last season. When all is said and done, I believe he'll be considered a top 6 Center of all time. Possibly even higher than that depending on how many ring(s) he wins (if any). That said, I think Luka will become better than Jokic for 2 reasons:

1. Luka is only 22. The sky is the limit for him.
2. Not all positions are equally important when it comes to defense. It's easier to hide a (s)wing on defense than it is to hide a Center. It's even easier to hide a Point Guard. The opposite goes on offense. It's easier to hide an abysmal offensive Center (for instance, rim runners) than it is to hide a (s)wing. It's practically impossible to hide a Point Guard who cannot shoot the ball. Look no further than Ben Simmons, which is why I wouldn't use him at PG in the half court. Jokic is a PG on offense and a Center on defense. In a vacuum, he's a more effective defender than Luka, but he plays at a key defensive position. You guys keep complaining about Luka's defense. In fact, it's relatively easy to hide him on defense.

It is one of the complaints I had with IT4 and Irving when they were in Boston i.e. great offensive players (and Luka is way better than them), but horrid defenders (luka may be worse than them).

Come on man. Are you seriously comparing IT4 to Luka? IT4 was possibly the worst defender in the NBA. Luka is nowhere near that bad. All advanced defensive metrics suggest he's a passable defender.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: +0.6 (this is actually above average)
Defensive RAPTOR: -0.8 (ranked 164th out of 250 players, so let's say a bit below average)
Defensive rating: 107.0 (ranked 319th out of 505 players. Again, a bit below average.)

Luka is a terrible defender.  It is a large reason why the Mavs don't drop off all that much when he is on the bench despite the fact that he is basically the offense when he is on the floor.  Guys that are super engines of offensive output and importance to the team, the team often collapses without them in the game, but that just hasn't been Dallas, because he is such a poor defender. 

Doesn't Defensive RAPTOR have Jakob Poeltl as the 3rd best defender in the sport?  Alex Caruso is 12th.  Marcus Smart was 0.1 in that stat.  And I know you can do that with all stats, but the RAPTOR ones always have some really strange results, which leads to the conclusion I put like almost no stock in it.  Luka is quite simply a terrible defender.  He certainly could be better, but he provides very little effort (much like Irving).

Luka is so much better on defence than IT, chiefly because he's about a foot taller than him. He's also better than Kyrie.

His size definitely helps, but he gives no effort at all and it isn't like he is an uber athlete.

I think his size enables him to be hidden on the worst perimeter player regardless of their size. IT4 and Kyrie didn't have that luxury, as if the worst opposition player was a wing they'd be screwed

All true, it just really bothers me he shows no effort at all.  For a guy that has the tools to be among the all time greats, the lack of effort just isn't a good sign.  he is obviously talented enough to win a MVP, but he isn't going to be in the group of special room players without trying on defense.

I think he has to put some effort into getting in better shape before he can exert himself on defense.

That is even worse.  If he can't put in the effort to get into basketball shape, what does that say?

I don't know that "get in shape" is the right phrase. But many stars like Jokic, Embiid and Marc Gasol have undergone body transformations while in the league to change the way they play.