The Knicks Are Still Terrible

[Moranis]

The Knicks over-under is 41.5, while the Raptors are 35.5.  I’d reverse them.

Why so for the Raptors? They lost Lowry. He was a key player for them. Have they replaced M.Gasol and Ibaka yet? The center position was a major problem for them last season.

I like their forwards (Anunoby, Siakam, Scottie Barnes, Boucher) and VanVleet (one guard) but do they have a supporting cast around them?

isn't Dragic still there? He isn't as good as Lowry, but he is still a quality player. They added Birch and Achiuwa I think.  Not great, but at least some size between them.  That said, 35.5 seems about right to me.  They are a below average team overall.

[Celtics2021]

The Knicks over-under is 41.5, while the Raptors are 35.5.  I’d reverse them.

Why so for the Raptors? They lost Lowry. He was a key player for them. Have they replaced M.Gasol and Ibaka yet? The center position was a major problem for them last season.

I like their forwards (Anunoby, Siakam, Scottie Barnes, Boucher) and VanVleet (one guard) but do they have a supporting cast around them?

At least as much as the Knicks do, yes.  Gary Trent Jr. is a solid SG (39% career from 3, turns 23 in January), and Goran Dragic is nice as a backup PG.  The Raptors had a Celtics-style "everything goes wrong" year, and unlike the C's, they decided to tank for a draft pick rather than fight for the playoffs.  On top of that, they actually get to play in Toronto this year, which will help them compared with playing in Tampa.  I don't think they're a top 3 team, but I do think they've got a good shot at being top 6, and I don't expect a second season of tanking.  Achiuwa has a shot at giving them some decent minutes at the 5 this year, too, although I expect them to go small with Boucher a lot.

[liam]

Thibs teams have a tendency to overachieve during the regular season. These Knicks will probably do that too.

[Hoopvortex]

The Knicks over-under is 41.5, while the Raptors are 35.5.  I’d reverse them.

Why so for the Raptors? They lost Lowry. He was a key player for them. Have they replaced M.Gasol and Ibaka yet? The center position was a major problem for them last season.

I like their forwards (Anunoby, Siakam, Scottie Barnes, Boucher) and VanVleet (one guard) but do they have a supporting cast around them?

You mention five guys; as far as an NBA rotation goes, you don't need much more to fill out a 'supporting cast'. I think the question is, do they have a top banana, and do their starters provide enough scoring punch in general.

People who really love basketball are going to be fascinated by this season's Raptors. They've got a whole bunch of 6'9" guys with great length and great movement. Versatile, switchable defenders who are going to be very hard to drive on. I'm predicting that they'll lead the league in deflections, and in fact I'll go further and predict that they'll lead the whole league in defense. This is the most advanced (or extreme, if you prefer) version of what Jalen Rose called NBA 2.0 and what has often been carelessly referred to as 'positionless basketball'.

A lot of people were surprised that they took Barnes (6'9" with great length and great movement) - but in a way it was a completely unsurprising pick, since he's just the latest example of what they've already been stockpiling.

So therefore they're also a good test-case for the question: "Does a team even need a top banana?"

Big Nurse is already signalling that Barnes will get as many minutes as he can handle. He'll have the ball a lot, and he (and the team) will suffer through a steep learning curve in the first couple of months of the season. In particular, they'll need him to create shots for teammates.

Siakam (6'9" with great length and great movement) had shoulder surgery (the injury and Covid wrecked his season; he was the poster child for Toronto's season-long disaster) and he will not be available in the first part of this year. He's about the closest thing they've got to a #1, so the team will predictably have a slow start, confirming most people's prejudices. Don't make up your mind too quickly about this team.

At least as much as the Knicks do, yes.  Gary Trent Jr. is a solid SG (39% career from 3, turns 23 in January), and Goran Dragic is nice as a backup PG.  The Raptors had a Celtics-style "everything goes wrong" year, and unlike the C's, they decided to tank for a draft pick rather than fight for the playoffs.  On top of that, they actually get to play in Toronto this year, which will help them compared with playing in Tampa.  I don't think they're a top 3 team, but I do think they've got a good shot at being top 6, and I don't expect a second season of tanking.  Achiuwa has a shot at giving them some decent minutes at the 5 this year, too, although I expect them to go small with Boucher a lot.

I agree with you that they're overlooked, and top-6 looks right to me.

Birch (6'9" with great length and great movement) and Achiuwa (6'8" with great length and great movement) at center is by most standards already 'going small', although it's true that Boucher (6'9" with great length and great movement) weighs in the same range as Fred VanVleet!

Achiuwa is not on people's radar, mostly, but he will be.

Yuta Watanabe (6'9" with great length and great movement) has excellent defensive instincts (2.6% Blocks last season and also .400 from 3).

If Malachi Flynn can translate the skills he showcased in summer league to the big show, he's a rotation player.

[Moranis]

I don't think the Raptors are a top 6 team unless a bunch of teams basically have worst case scenarios and everything goes well for Toronto.

I mean assuming reasonable/moderate health the Raptors are clearly worse than the Bucks, Nets, Heat, Hawks, Celtics, and Sixers (even without Simmons).  That doesn't account for the Knicks, Bulls, Hornets, or Pacers which could all quite easily be better than the Raptors. 

[Ed Monix]

I won't say they are bad but they aren't in the top 4 or looking like they will be any time soon. I do like their young players and vets. I expect them to be in the playoffs. I feel RJ will be as good as Gordon Hayward not sure if he becomes better than that.

That’s interesting, it’s hard to find a true comparison for RJ Barrett.

I’ve heard:

- DeMar DeRozen, but he’s way more athletic.

- Paul Pierce, but he’s taller, was a slightly better athlete and natural shooter.

- James Harden, but he’s essentially a unicorn.

- Khris Middleton, this for me is the closest comparison.

Barrett does look like a worker, so I’m sure he’ll grind out every bit of potential.

[nickagneta]

Lol...I hope they are terrible and stay that way.

I know it's the boring season but found it interesting that the Celtics seem to be the least talked about thing on this site at the moment.

We have this thread on the Knicks. Another on the Sixers. Another on the Wolves. Another on a Memphis player. 2 on Covid. And 2 on the Celtics. Add that to the Kyrie Covid thread and the Wiggins Covid thread, which have been popular threads recently and you get very little Celtics talk.

Boy I can't wait for the season to start and we can begin blabbering on about our Green Team once again.

😃😀😀😀😀

Okay, feeling better. Rant over. Hope the Knicks continue to be the Knicks but do it in spite of a great Kema comeback season. I really like Kemba. Good guy

[Csfan1984]

I won't say they are bad but they aren't in the top 4 or looking like they will be any time soon. I do like their young players and vets. I expect them to be in the playoffs. I feel RJ will be as good as Gordon Hayward not sure if he becomes better than that.

That’s interesting, it’s hard to find a true comparison for RJ Barrett.

I’ve heard:

- DeMar DeRozen, but he’s way more athletic.

- Paul Pierce, but he’s taller, was a slightly better athlete and natural shooter.

- James Harden, but he’s essentially a unicorn.

- Khris Middleton, this for me is the closest comparison.

Barrett does look like a worker, so I’m sure he’ll grind out every bit of potential.

I don't see the wait approach of Middleton or the instinct of Pierce. He will also probably be a better shooter than DeRozan. So I went Hayward.

[Who]

The Knicks over-under is 41.5, while the Raptors are 35.5.  I’d reverse them.

Why so for the Raptors? They lost Lowry. He was a key player for them. Have they replaced M.Gasol and Ibaka yet? The center position was a major problem for them last season.

I like their forwards (Anunoby, Siakam, Scottie Barnes, Boucher) and VanVleet (one guard) but do they have a supporting cast around them?

You mention five guys; as far as an NBA rotation goes, you don't need much more to fill out a 'supporting cast'. I think the question is, do they have a top banana, and do their starters provide enough scoring punch in general.

The Raptors had a season last year like the Celtics where their top 4 guys or so played very well but the rest of the team sucked and wrecked their season. That is why I am worried about their supporting cast.

I had forgotten about Dragic and Trent Jr. That is good. Khem Birch might be somewhat of an answer at center. I am not convinced by Boucher there. He is too skinny. A pogo stick who is easily pushed around inside and on the boards. He tries but he is just too small. Good option at PF though.

I like Siakam as a small ball center more than Boucher. Maybe more than Birch. That is something to watch out for more in the future. At least until they find a real center to replace M.Gasol & Ibaka. Siakam might very well be their best center in the interim.

People who really love basketball are going to be fascinated by this season's Raptors. They've got a whole bunch of 6'9" guys with great length and great movement. Versatile, switchable defenders who are going to be very hard to drive on. I'm predicting that they'll lead the league in deflections, and in fact I'll go further and predict that they'll lead the whole league in defense. This is the most advanced (or extreme, if you prefer) version of what Jalen Rose called NBA 2.0 and what has often been carelessly referred to as 'positionless basketball'.

I thought they led the league in deflections last year but I looked it up to double check - they finished 3rd. They are / were already fantastic at getting deflections.

They still finished 15th in defensive efficiency despite this. In large part due to their lack of quality at the center position. Their defense elsewhere was excellent. They got very strong defense in the backcourt from Lowry & VanVleet. Siakam and Anunoby did a great job at forward. They had a bunch of long athletic forwards backing them up (like Boucher) already.

Their real issue defensively is their failure to replace Marc Gasol and Serge Ibaka. Fix that hole and Toronto is immediately one of the best defensive teams in the league. Even find a passable center and they should be a well above average to high level defensive team. But if they continue to field weak defenders there that crater their defense it'll reduce the value of all those long athletic active wing defenders.

[Hoopvortex]

The Knicks over-under is 41.5, while the Raptors are 35.5.  I’d reverse them.

Why so for the Raptors? They lost Lowry. He was a key player for them. Have they replaced M.Gasol and Ibaka yet? The center position was a major problem for them last season.

I like their forwards (Anunoby, Siakam, Scottie Barnes, Boucher) and VanVleet (one guard) but do they have a supporting cast around them?

You mention five guys; as far as an NBA rotation goes, you don't need much more to fill out a 'supporting cast'. I think the question is, do they have a top banana, and do their starters provide enough scoring punch in general.

The Raptors had a season last year like the Celtics where their top 4 guys or so played very well but the rest of the team sucked and wrecked their season. That is why I am worried about their supporting cast.

The problem for most of their players, including their starters, was Covid. Siakam played 56 games, VanVleet 52, Lowry 46, and OG 43. Apart from the continuity issues, the post-Covid situation affected their conditioning, which was most noticeable in their defense (compare to Tatum last year, who had decent 'numbers' but sacrificed his effort on the other end).

Siakam was playing with a torn shoulder labrum, and we could go down the list. They were even more snakebit than Boston last season.

I had forgotten about Dragic and Trent Jr. That is good. Khem Birch might be somewhat of an answer at center. I am not convinced by Boucher there. He is too skinny. A pogo stick who is easily pushed around inside and on the boards. He tries but he is just too small. Good option at PF though.

I like Siakam as a small ball center more than Boucher. Maybe more than Birch. That is something to watch out for more in the future. At least until they find a real center to replace M.Gasol & Ibaka. Siakam might very well be their best center in the interim.

Love the out-of-the-box thinking. You're leaving out Precious Achiuwa, by the way, and I think that we'll see more of him - well, a lot more - at center than we will Spicy.

Immediately I'll undermine that, though; the thing that's so striking about Toronto's roster is how switchable and versatile they are. They might be the most positionless team that's ever taken the floor in the Association.

Their real issue defensively is their failure to replace Marc Gasol and Serge Ibaka. Fix that hole and Toronto is immediately one of the best defensive teams in the league. Even find a passable center and they should be a well above average to high level defensive team. But if they continue to field weak defenders there that crater their defense it'll reduce the value of all those long athletic active wing defenders.

My interpretation is different from yours, obviously, though I don't disagree with you, either. I would certainly agree that Aron Baynes was a step down from Marc Gasol, and not just on the defensive end. But I think that a bigger issue last season was missed games and disrupted continuity.

They're attempting to re-tool while they're competing, which is a difficult trick to pull off. Getting the fourth pick doesn't hurt, though even the best rookies get their lumps in their first season; and Scottie Barnes is not the only young player on the roster. They'll be doing well to be playing .500 ball by New Year's day.

[mobilija]

I don't think the Raptors are a top 6 team unless a bunch of teams basically have worst case scenarios and everything goes well for Toronto.

I mean assuming reasonable/moderate health the Raptors are clearly worse than the Bucks, Nets, Heat, Hawks, Celtics, and Sixers (even without Simmons).  That doesn't account for the Knicks, Bulls, Hornets, or Pacers which could all quite easily be better than the Raptors.

Sounds like the East is deep this year....

[Moranis]

I don't think the Raptors are a top 6 team unless a bunch of teams basically have worst case scenarios and everything goes well for Toronto.

I mean assuming reasonable/moderate health the Raptors are clearly worse than the Bucks, Nets, Heat, Hawks, Celtics, and Sixers (even without Simmons).  That doesn't account for the Knicks, Bulls, Hornets, or Pacers which could all quite easily be better than the Raptors.

Sounds like the East is deep this year....

or just varying degrees of mediocrity

[Vermont Green]

I don't really care about the Knicks.  I have some interest in seeing how Kemba does, but that is about it.

My prediction is that the Knicks will be better than the Raptors, which isn't saying much.

[mobilija]

I don't think the Raptors are a top 6 team unless a bunch of teams basically have worst case scenarios and everything goes well for Toronto.

I mean assuming reasonable/moderate health the Raptors are clearly worse than the Bucks, Nets, Heat, Hawks, Celtics, and Sixers (even without Simmons).  That doesn't account for the Knicks, Bulls, Hornets, or Pacers which could all quite easily be better than the Raptors.

Sounds like the East is deep this year....

or just varying degrees of mediocrity

Yes, less bad teams more middling to good teams, i.e. deep.

[Moranis]

I don't think the Raptors are a top 6 team unless a bunch of teams basically have worst case scenarios and everything goes well for Toronto.

I mean assuming reasonable/moderate health the Raptors are clearly worse than the Bucks, Nets, Heat, Hawks, Celtics, and Sixers (even without Simmons).  That doesn't account for the Knicks, Bulls, Hornets, or Pacers which could all quite easily be better than the Raptors.

Sounds like the East is deep this year....

or just varying degrees of mediocrity

Yes, less bad teams more middling to good teams, i.e. deep.

not how I'd describe deep at all.