Poll: Where do you rank Dirk among the top PF's of all time?

[Jvalin]

Dirk played his last game at Dallas last night. So here's my question: Where do you rank him among the top PF's of all time?


some other NBA legends at the PF position: Duncan, Malone, KG, Barkley, McHale, Elvin Hayes, Bob Pettit, Bob McAdoo, Dennis Rodman, Chris Webber, Anthony Davis (to name a few)

[Silky]

Duncan
Malone
Barkley
Garnett

These guys are at the top. After that? A large group that includes Dirk.

Dirk does not rank in the top because he was never a real 2 way player. The others above him could all score but also defend on a night to night basis.

[Androslav]

I rather have prime Dirk than Malone.
Probably even KG, due to his unstoppable scoring ability.
Top 5 PFs surely.

If we are counting in his contributions as a transcendental era-changing (floor spreading) big man (which, with all due respect, Malone, KG, nor Barkley were), he is top 3.

I'm glad that he, along with others, helped the American public to realize that not only American players know how to play serious ball.
Something Dražen and Marčulionis, the pioneers, didn't enjoy.

After a blackjack of years,
So long Maverick!
Your deuces were wild,
You were one of a kind,
For basketball immortality bound.

[Who]

I consider Duncan a center. McAdoo had his best years as an undersized quick five (center) rather than at a power forward. He doesn't quality for a top 10 PF for me. Anthony Davis is also a center.

Chris Webber and Shawn Kemp didn't do enough to qualify as a top 10 PFs although both clearly had the talent to do so if other things had not gotten in their way.

I would rather have Dirk than Elvin Hayes. Hayes was a good scorer but he was a black hole, shot happy and had average scoring efficiency. For a guy who shot the ball as much as Hayes did, his unwillingness to pass the ball is the biggest black mark against him. It is difficult for a team to function with a guy like that. So I would rather have Dirk despite the superiority of Hayes on defense & in rebounding.

I take Dirk over Rodman for sure.

So that leaves Dirk, Chuck, Malone, Pettit, KG and McHale. Of that group, McHale has the weakest resume because injuries got in his way.

So I have Dirk as a top 5 PF.   

I lean towards KG and Karl Malone as #1 and #2. The next 3 can vary in order depending on my head is at.

[gouki88]

I consider Duncan a center. McAdoo had his best years as an undersized quick five (center) rather than at a power forward. He doesn't quality for a top 10 PF for me. Anthony Davis is also a center.

Chris Webber and Shawn Kemp didn't do enough to qualify as a top 10 PFs although both clearly had the talent to do so if other things had not gotten in their way.

I would rather have Dirk than Elvin Hayes. Hayes was a good scorer but he was a black hole, shot happy and had average scoring efficiency. For a guy who shot the ball as much as Hayes did, his unwillingness to pass the ball is the biggest black mark against him. It is difficult for a team to function with a guy like that. So I would rather have Dirk despite the superiority of Hayes on defense & in rebounding.

I take Dirk over Rodman for sure.

So that leaves Dirk, Chuck, Malone, Pettit, KG and McHale. Of that group, McHale has the weakest resume because injuries got in his way.

So I have Dirk as a top 5 PF.   

I lean towards KG and Karl Malone as #1 and #2. The next 3 can vary in order depending on my head is at.

The point about Duncan is an interesting one, no doubt. I definitely believe that he played probably around half his career as a C. However, in his two MVP seasons, and for really the first half of his career, he was listed as a PF. BasketballReference also splits it in two similarly.

It's interesting when you compare them as basically two separate players.

PF Tim Duncan averaged:
22.1 / 12 / 3.1 / 2.5 / 0.8 on 50/20/69 shooting splits. He won two MVP's and 3 rings in this period, while playing 666 regular season games and 118 playoff games.

C Tim Duncan averaged:
16.3 / 9.7 / 2.9 / 1.9 / 0.7 on 51/13/71 splits. He won one less ring, but played more games.

I would probably classify Timmy as a PF, considering his best years were played at that position. But I wouldn't necessarily argue your position.

I've got Dirk as a top 5 guy too

[Moranis]

I think Duncan is a PF.  Almost all of his best years were at PF. 

I think Duncan and Malone have clearly established themselves at the top 2.  Barkley and Garnett are 3 and 4 for me.  After that it is much more difficult to start separating players, so I'd put Dirk anywhere from 5 to like 10 in the same group as McHale, Rodman, Pettit, Hayes, and DeBuscherre.

That assumes that you call Elgin Baylor a SF and not a PF as he played a lot of PF for the Lakers in his day and I'd take Baylor over Dirk. 

[Green-18]

I think Duncan is a PF.  Almost all of his best years were at PF. 

I think Duncan and Malone have clearly established themselves at the top 2.  Barkley and Garnett are 3 and 4 for me.  After that it is much more difficult to start separating players, so I'd put Dirk anywhere from 5 to like 10 in the same group as McHale, Rodman, Pettit, Hayes, and DeBuscherre.

That assumes that you call Elgin Baylor a SF and not a PF as he played a lot of PF for the Lakers in his day and I'd take Baylor over Dirk.

Just curious, what prevents Dirk from being in the same class as KG and Barkley?  I wont argue that both of them were more versatile and dominant in their primes.  That said, Dirk's ability to carry a team as an elite scorer makes up for most of his deficiencies.  Dirk also played very well against KG throughout his career.  I think it's fair to put Dirk in a tier above McHale, Rodman, Pettit, Hayes, and DeBuuscherre.

I'd also be interested in hearing your thoughts on the Malone vs Barkley debate.  Malone's longevity puts him above Barkley, but I think it's fair to argue that they are on a level playing field if we compare their peak years.  His efficiency during the Philly years was mind blowing.  Imagine if he had played with Stockton! 

I think The Houston years really hurt Barkley, especially when you look at their head-to-head numbers. 

 

[Moranis]

I think Duncan is a PF.  Almost all of his best years were at PF. 

I think Duncan and Malone have clearly established themselves at the top 2.  Barkley and Garnett are 3 and 4 for me.  After that it is much more difficult to start separating players, so I'd put Dirk anywhere from 5 to like 10 in the same group as McHale, Rodman, Pettit, Hayes, and DeBuscherre.

That assumes that you call Elgin Baylor a SF and not a PF as he played a lot of PF for the Lakers in his day and I'd take Baylor over Dirk.

Just curious, what prevents Dirk from being in the same class as KG and Barkley?  I wont argue that both of them were more versatile and dominant in their primes.  That said, Dirk's ability to carry a team as an elite scorer makes up for most of his deficiencies.  Dirk also played very well against KG throughout his career.  I think it's fair to put Dirk in a tier above McHale, Rodman, Pettit, Hayes, and DeBuuscherre.

I'd also be interested in hearing your thoughts on the Malone vs Barkley debate.  Malone's longevity puts him above Barkley, but I think it's fair to argue that they are on a level playing field if we compare their peak years.  His efficiency during the Philly years was mind blowing.  Imagine if he had played with Stockton! 

I think The Houston years really hurt Barkley, especially when you look at their head-to-head numbers.

Dirk was a poor defender (and didn't generate steals or blocks in addition to be a poor defender).  Dirk was a poor rebounder.  Average at best passer.  Dirk was an excellent shooter (especially for his size), but really didn't do much else at an elite level.  He just isn't in the same class as KG or Barkley.

I think Malone and Barkley have fairly similar peaks, but Malone's was just so much longer that there really is no question he elevated up a tier.  And this is a career thing.  I mean you could have McHale much higher if you just look at peak, as he was absolutely amazing and that is with splitting touches with Bird and the Chief. 

[PhoSita]

I think I'd rank him ahead of Barkley and McHale, behind Duncan, Garnett, Malone.


Dirk played longer at a high level and won a title as the best player on his team, which puts him ahead of Barkley in my opinion.


I'd rather have Dirk for his whole career than Barkley for his whole career.

[Silky]

I think I'd rank him ahead of Barkley and McHale, behind Duncan, Garnett, Malone.


Dirk played longer at a high level and won a title as the best player on his team, which puts him ahead of Barkley in my opinion.


I'd rather have Dirk for his whole career than Barkley for his whole career.

What has dirk done these last 5 years? except of course have his production drop off a cliff.

Barkley over a 15 year career had a highers TS%, Efg%, ORB%, DRB%, TRB%, Ast%, Stl%, WinShar/48, OWS, DFW, VORP, PPG, RPG, APG, Defensive rating, offensive rating.

Dirk shot threes better and played more seasons.

If I was building a team in todays game, and needed to chose 1 of these 2 guys to be the centerpiece I pick Barkley.

[PhoSita]

I think I'd rank him ahead of Barkley and McHale, behind Duncan, Garnett, Malone.


Dirk played longer at a high level and won a title as the best player on his team, which puts him ahead of Barkley in my opinion.


I'd rather have Dirk for his whole career than Barkley for his whole career.

What has dirk done these last 5 years? except of course have his production drop off a cliff.

Barkley over a 15 year career had a highers TS%, Efg%, ORB%, DRB%, TRB%, Ast%, Stl%, WinShar/48, OWS, DFW, VORP, PPG, RPG, APG, Defensive rating, offensive rating.

Dirk shot threes better and played more seasons.

If I was building a team in todays game, and needed to chose 1 of these 2 guys to be the centerpiece I pick Barkley.

Give me the 7 foot guy who spread the floor and was an assassin from anywhere for 15 years, plus a few years on the end where he was still a valuable role player that opponents respected.


Dirk's production hasn't dropped off that much until the last couple of years. 

[Moranis]

I think I'd rank him ahead of Barkley and McHale, behind Duncan, Garnett, Malone.


Dirk played longer at a high level and won a title as the best player on his team, which puts him ahead of Barkley in my opinion.


I'd rather have Dirk for his whole career than Barkley for his whole career.

What has dirk done these last 5 years? except of course have his production drop off a cliff.

Barkley over a 15 year career had a highers TS%, Efg%, ORB%, DRB%, TRB%, Ast%, Stl%, WinShar/48, OWS, DFW, VORP, PPG, RPG, APG, Defensive rating, offensive rating.

Dirk shot threes better and played more seasons.

If I was building a team in todays game, and needed to chose 1 of these 2 guys to be the centerpiece I pick Barkley.

Give me the 7 foot guy who spread the floor and was an assassin from anywhere for 15 years, plus a few years on the end where he was still a valuable role player that opponents respected.


Dirk's production hasn't dropped off that much until the last couple of years.

Dirk hasn't been a #1 type player in a long time.  He had even started his decline before the title season and has steadily gotten worse basically every year since.  He also wasn't nearly as healthy during the last 5 seasons or so and those 5 seasons are basically the difference between him and Charles.  Heck Charles actually has more career rebounds (by a shockingly wide margin) despite playing those 5 less seasons.  Not only that, Charles has more career assists and career steals.  And while Charles wasn't exactly a great defender, he was a better defender than Dirk.  As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Dirk was an excellent shooter, but did almost nothing else well (comparatively speaking).