Privileged by Kyle Korver (Merged)

[JSD]

IDK if someone said this already, I can't bring myself to read every response, but Korver was able to eloquently describe a lot of what's going on in this thread.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

TL;DR if you're fighting this tooth and nail rather than listening, you're part of the problem. And yes, racist, whether you are actively trying to be or not. *Shrug*

There's inherently something wrong with accusing someone of racism because they'd rather not observe race at all.

The common thing among racists and those who view everything through a prism of racism, is that race is extremely important to both. In this way, those who choose to be "colorblind" are further removed from racism.

At one time, it was a popular strategy to choose not to see race. And in my opinion, things started to get better (not perfect, but moving in the right direction). Now, you are being called racist for choosing that strategy. In this way, you will never defeat racists, because even in the absence of serious racism, you will have those who just go about their business regardless of race. It's a bad strategy, and in my opinion it's why things seem to be getting worse, not because racism is increasing in power, relevance or frequency. Our awareness is raised and therefore the racism that always will exist is magnified beyond what it needs to be.

But according to Korver, I'm a racist for having this opinion. Don't you see the problem with that thought? It's making an ally into an opponent needlessly. Stop. That's the wrong way to do it.

T to the P

[nickagneta]

Gee, I thought I addressed this pretty clearly yesterday. Here is the quote again:

But as disgraceful as it is that we have to deal with racist hecklers in NBA arenas in 2019? The truth is, you could argue that that kind of racism is “easier” to deal with.

Because at least in those cases, the racism is loud and clear. There’s no ambiguity — not in the act itself, and thankfully not in the response: we throw the guy out of the building, and then we ban him for life.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

The context of what Korver wrote in that area where he discusses a person who is nice to POC but in private wishes people wouldn't make everything about race matters completely.

He discussed racism in the open as being easy to deal with but says the worst kind of racism is the racism you can not see. The racism of racist people who does what he says. He wasn't describing all people or all white people. He was describing racist people.

He didn't write exactly that, so it's not perfectly written, but in context, it's what he meant. At the beginning of that last paragraph he is describing a racist that hides their feelings. Then gives the example of how that racist might act.

He was talking about a racist person not every person.

[Roy H.]

IDK if someone said this already, I can't bring myself to read every response, but Korver was able to eloquently describe a lot of what's going on in this thread.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

TL;DR if you're fighting this tooth and nail rather than listening, you're part of the problem. And yes, racist, whether you are actively trying to be or not. *Shrug*

There's inherently something wrong with accusing someone of racism because they'd rather not observe race at all.

The common thing among racists and those who view everything through a prism of racism, is that race is extremely important to both. In this way, those who choose to be "colorblind" are further removed from racism.

At one time, it was a popular strategy to choose not to see race. And in my opinion, things started to get better (not perfect, but moving in the right direction). Now, you are being called racist for choosing that strategy. In this way, you will never defeat racists, because even in the absence of serious racism, you will have those who just go about their business regardless of race. It's a bad strategy, and in my opinion it's why things seem to be getting worse, not because racism is increasing in power, relevance or frequency. Our awareness is raised and therefore the racism that always will exist is magnified beyond what it needs to be.

But according to Korver, I'm a racist for having this opinion. Don't you see the problem with that thought? It's making an ally into an opponent needlessly. Stop. That's the wrong way to do it.

This is what happens when you only look at pieces of an article, you come up with things that were never the intent of the drafter.

If the quote doesn't match the intent, it shouldn't be included in the article. If the quote can be taken the wrong way by me, it can also be taken the wrong way by others, who maybe don't share Korver's intent, but rather his literal statement, no? Perhaps we should critique the article rather than praise its intent for this very reason.

You can pull anything out of context.  That was my point.

Therefore it's worth critiquing the literal quote.

Are you seriously arguing that context should be ignored?

No, I think he’s arguing the quote was sloppy and unclear, regardless of context.  It implies that something nefarious is going on when white people don’t put everything into a racial context.

He didn't argue it was poorly written (which it certainly could have been written better, but then again he is a professional basketball player).  And the second part, it only implies something nefarious when you take it out of context.  That is why context matters.

Well no, it implies something nefarious *in* context.

The good, polite white folk in public are (nefariously) in private talking about how not everything is about race.

He calls people who act like that racist, and that’s asinine.  Korver is the one who picks the dichotomy, and he juxtaposes acting politely in public toward blacks with privately not wanting to make everything about race.  He uses the label racism.

What context are you seeing differently?

He doesn't say what you're claiming at all. He draws a distinction between two types of racism: one that is loud and obvious and another that is polite in public while harboring hate in private.

The argument that the latter is more dangerous seems reasonable to me.

Except he doesn't say "harboring hate", he says "they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything 'about race' all the time."  That's the racist example he comes up with.  People who are publicly polite and act well around blacks, but who "sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything 'about race' all the time."

That is, at best, a sloppy analogy, because there is NOTHING inherently racist about somebody who "sort of wish[es] that everyone would stop making everything 'about race' all the time", especially when that person is polite and treats blacks well.

[Roy H.]

Gee, I thought I addressed this pretty clearly yesterday. Here is the quote again:

But as disgraceful as it is that we have to deal with racist hecklers in NBA arenas in 2019? The truth is, you could argue that that kind of racism is “easier” to deal with.

Because at least in those cases, the racism is loud and clear. There’s no ambiguity — not in the act itself, and thankfully not in the response: we throw the guy out of the building, and then we ban him for life.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

The context of what Korver wrote in that area where he discusses a person who is nice to POC but in private wishes people wouldn't make everything about race matters completely.

He discussed racism in the open as being easy to deal with but says the worst kind of racism is the racism you can not see. The racism of racist people who does what he says. He wasn't describing all people or all white people. He was describing racist people.

He didn't write exactly that, so it's not perfectly written, but in context, it's what he meant. At the beginning of that last paragraph he is describing a racist that hides their feelings. Then gives the example of how that racist might act.

He was talking about a racist person not every person.

I think that all of that is clear except for this:

Then gives the example of how that racist might act.

The example really isn't an example of racism at all.

It's like saying "My racist brother in law is a jerk.  Sure, he treats me well and has never shown any racist tendencies in public, but in private he doesn't care for rap music".

It's an asinine example of racism, especially if you're calling it dangerous.  Somebody wants to look beyond race?  Must be a racist!  That's not helpful.

[nickagneta]

Gee, I thought I addressed this pretty clearly yesterday. Here is the quote again:

But as disgraceful as it is that we have to deal with racist hecklers in NBA arenas in 2019? The truth is, you could argue that that kind of racism is “easier” to deal with.

Because at least in those cases, the racism is loud and clear. There’s no ambiguity — not in the act itself, and thankfully not in the response: we throw the guy out of the building, and then we ban him for life.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

The context of what Korver wrote in that area where he discusses a person who is nice to POC but in private wishes people wouldn't make everything about race matters completely.

He discussed racism in the open as being easy to deal with but says the worst kind of racism is the racism you can not see. The racism of racist people who does what he says. He wasn't describing all people or all white people. He was describing racist people.

He didn't write exactly that, so it's not perfectly written, but in context, it's what he meant. At the beginning of that last paragraph he is describing a racist that hides their feelings. Then gives the example of how that racist might act.

He was talking about a racist person not every person.

I think that all of that is clear except for this:

Then gives the example of how that racist might act.

The example really isn't an example of racism at all.

It's like saying "My racist brother in law is a jerk.  Sure, he treats me well and has never shown any racist tendencies in public, but in private he doesn't care for rap music".

It's an asinine example of racism, especially if you're calling it dangerous.  Somebody wants to look beyond race?  Must be a racist!  That's not helpful.

Roy, of course, a racist would do such things. Hell, I have personally seen racist people do exactly those things. Just because some people may not be racist that do this is exactly why it's a problem because, as he said in the article, there is an "ambiguity", as he wrote, here that racist people can hide behind.

[Roy H.]

Gee, I thought I addressed this pretty clearly yesterday. Here is the quote again:

But as disgraceful as it is that we have to deal with racist hecklers in NBA arenas in 2019? The truth is, you could argue that that kind of racism is “easier” to deal with.

Because at least in those cases, the racism is loud and clear. There’s no ambiguity — not in the act itself, and thankfully not in the response: we throw the guy out of the building, and then we ban him for life.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

The context of what Korver wrote in that area where he discusses a person who is nice to POC but in private wishes people wouldn't make everything about race matters completely.

He discussed racism in the open as being easy to deal with but says the worst kind of racism is the racism you can not see. The racism of racist people who does what he says. He wasn't describing all people or all white people. He was describing racist people.

He didn't write exactly that, so it's not perfectly written, but in context, it's what he meant. At the beginning of that last paragraph he is describing a racist that hides their feelings. Then gives the example of how that racist might act.

He was talking about a racist person not every person.

I think that all of that is clear except for this:

Then gives the example of how that racist might act.

The example really isn't an example of racism at all.

It's like saying "My racist brother in law is a jerk.  Sure, he treats me well and has never shown any racist tendencies in public, but in private he doesn't care for rap music".

It's an asinine example of racism, especially if you're calling it dangerous.  Somebody wants to look beyond race?  Must be a racist!  That's not helpful.

Roy, of course, a racist would do such things. Hell, I have personally seen racist people do exactly those things. Just because some people may not be racist that do this is exactly why it's a problem because, as he said in the article, there is an ambiguity here that racist people can hide behind.

Of the top 50 objectional things a racist might do, I'm not sure that saying he objects to "everything being made about race" makes the list.  Thus, why it's a terrible example that is overbroad, and which skews his point.

[number_n9ne]

IDK if someone said this already, I can't bring myself to read every response, but Korver was able to eloquently describe a lot of what's going on in this thread.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

TL;DR if you're fighting this tooth and nail rather than listening, you're part of the problem. And yes, racist, whether you are actively trying to be or not. *Shrug*

There's inherently something wrong with accusing someone of racism because they'd rather not observe race at all.

The common thing among racists and those who view everything through a prism of racism, is that race is extremely important to both. In this way, those who choose to be "colorblind" are further removed from racism.

At one time, it was a popular strategy to choose not to see race. And in my opinion, things started to get better (not perfect, but moving in the right direction). Now, you are being called racist for choosing that strategy. In this way, you will never defeat racists, because even in the absence of serious racism, you will have those who just go about their business regardless of race. It's a bad strategy, and in my opinion it's why things seem to be getting worse, not because racism is increasing in power, relevance or frequency. Our awareness is raised and therefore the racism that always will exist is magnified beyond what it needs to be.

But according to Korver, I'm a racist for having this opinion. Don't you see the problem with that thought? It's making an ally into an opponent needlessly. Stop. That's the wrong way to do it.

Ok let me break this down for you. To your first point, "because they'd rather not observe race at all." This speaks to part of Korver's thesis statement. You, being a white male (I'm assuming) can ignore race. You can make that active choice to be "colorblind." PoC don't have that choice, they are constantly judged by their race. You choosing to ignore race because it makes you uncomfortable is not helping PoC. This is exactly what he mean's by "The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time."

To your second point, removing yourself from racism is removing your acknowledgment of it. By doing that you are telling PoC they are on their own. You are no longer actively contributing to stopping it.

To your third point, because something is being ignored, doesn't mean it's getting better. It just means that you aren't seeing it, therefore you think it's getting better. For PoC, it's all the same. Also, there's no such thing as "serious racism," just racism.

And fourth, after reading through all this I hope you see you are not acting like an ally. You are a bystander. By allowing racism to happen and not holding others accountable, even if you yourself aren't the one doing racist things, you are saying to PoC "It's not my problem, don't make me uncomfortable."

Please believe me, I don't think you're a bad person. I think the majority of this board is most likely great people. I used to say I was colorblind too, I get it. I don't want to feel blamed for being a white male. I didn't do anything wrong to anyone, why is it my fault? But you have to look past that and listen to others. We have it so easy in this country. And for the first time ever we are taking heat, and we are crumbling under it. If you, or anyone else is truly interested in learning why the whole "colorblind" motto hurts more than it helps, check out the documentary "The Color of Fear." It was filmed in 1994, which I think is important for you regarding how you think things are getting worse than they used to be. Maybe you can see things are just getting louder, not worse. Additionally, I don't want to argue with you. I'm not here to crap on you or try and make you feel like a bad person. But this is what Korver meant by holding others accountable and speaking up. If you truly view yourself as an ally, that's how you do it.

The Color of Fear: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0484384/

[nickagneta]

Gee, I thought I addressed this pretty clearly yesterday. Here is the quote again:

But as disgraceful as it is that we have to deal with racist hecklers in NBA arenas in 2019? The truth is, you could argue that that kind of racism is “easier” to deal with.

Because at least in those cases, the racism is loud and clear. There’s no ambiguity — not in the act itself, and thankfully not in the response: we throw the guy out of the building, and then we ban him for life.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

The context of what Korver wrote in that area where he discusses a person who is nice to POC but in private wishes people wouldn't make everything about race matters completely.

He discussed racism in the open as being easy to deal with but says the worst kind of racism is the racism you can not see. The racism of racist people who does what he says. He wasn't describing all people or all white people. He was describing racist people.

He didn't write exactly that, so it's not perfectly written, but in context, it's what he meant. At the beginning of that last paragraph he is describing a racist that hides their feelings. Then gives the example of how that racist might act.

He was talking about a racist person not every person.

I think that all of that is clear except for this:

Then gives the example of how that racist might act.

The example really isn't an example of racism at all.

It's like saying "My racist brother in law is a jerk.  Sure, he treats me well and has never shown any racist tendencies in public, but in private he doesn't care for rap music".

It's an asinine example of racism, especially if you're calling it dangerous.  Somebody wants to look beyond race?  Must be a racist!  That's not helpful.

Roy, of course, a racist would do such things. Hell, I have personally seen racist people do exactly those things. Just because some people may not be racist that do this is exactly why it's a problem because, as he said in the article, there is an ambiguity here that racist people can hide behind.

Of the top 50 objectional things a racist might do, I'm not sure that saying he objects to "everything being made about race" makes the list.  Thus, why it's a terrible example that is overbroad, and which skews his point.

Roy, this wasn't about objectionable things a racist could do. It was an example of what a person who is racist but is trying to hide their racism might do.

A person who is racist but wants to hide it might look at an article about race relations and declare his dislike that "people", in this case a reporter, are making things all about race. It's a very good example. It does happen.

[number_n9ne]

IDK if someone said this already, I can't bring myself to read every response, but Korver was able to eloquently describe a lot of what's going on in this thread.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

TL;DR if you're fighting this tooth and nail rather than listening, you're part of the problem. And yes, racist, whether you are actively trying to be or not. *Shrug*

What's racist about somebody who treats black people kindly, who does and says nice things, but doesn't like viewing every human interaction in terms of race?

See above ^

[number_n9ne]

IDK if someone said this already, I can't bring myself to read every response, but Korver was able to eloquently describe a lot of what's going on in this thread.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

TL;DR if you're fighting this tooth and nail rather than listening, you're part of the problem. And yes, racist, whether you are actively trying to be or not. *Shrug*

What's racist about somebody who treats black people kindly, who does and says nice things, but doesn't like viewing every human interaction in terms of race?

I’m always excited when some tells me I’m racist for not seeing everything through the lens of racism. Really makes me willing to take them seriously

You too, see above ^

[gift]

IDK if someone said this already, I can't bring myself to read every response, but Korver was able to eloquently describe a lot of what's going on in this thread.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

TL;DR if you're fighting this tooth and nail rather than listening, you're part of the problem. And yes, racist, whether you are actively trying to be or not. *Shrug*

There's inherently something wrong with accusing someone of racism because they'd rather not observe race at all.

The common thing among racists and those who view everything through a prism of racism, is that race is extremely important to both. In this way, those who choose to be "colorblind" are further removed from racism.

At one time, it was a popular strategy to choose not to see race. And in my opinion, things started to get better (not perfect, but moving in the right direction). Now, you are being called racist for choosing that strategy. In this way, you will never defeat racists, because even in the absence of serious racism, you will have those who just go about their business regardless of race. It's a bad strategy, and in my opinion it's why things seem to be getting worse, not because racism is increasing in power, relevance or frequency. Our awareness is raised and therefore the racism that always will exist is magnified beyond what it needs to be.

But according to Korver, I'm a racist for having this opinion. Don't you see the problem with that thought? It's making an ally into an opponent needlessly. Stop. That's the wrong way to do it.

Ok let me break this down for you. To your first point, "because they'd rather not observe race at all." This speaks to part of Korver's thesis statement. You, being a white male (I'm assuming) can ignore race. You can make that active choice to be "colorblind." PoC don't have that choice, they are constantly judged by their race. You choosing to ignore race because it makes you uncomfortable is not helping PoC. This is exactly what he mean's by "The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time."

To your second point, removing yourself from racism is removing your acknowledgment of it. By doing that you are telling PoC they are on their own. You are no longer actively contributing to stopping it.

To your third point, because something is being ignored, doesn't mean it's getting better. It just means that you aren't seeing it, therefore you think it's getting better. For PoC, it's all the same. Also, there's no such thing as "serious racism," just racism.

And fourth, after reading through all this I hope you see you are not acting like an ally. You are a bystander. By allowing racism to happen and not holding others accountable, even if you yourself aren't the one doing racist things, you are saying to PoC "It's not my problem, don't make me uncomfortable."

Please believe me, I don't think you're a bad person. I think the majority of this board is most likely great people. I used to say I was colorblind too, I get it. I don't want to feel blamed for being a white male. I didn't do anything wrong to anyone, why is it my fault? But you have to look past that and listen to others. We have it so easy in this country. And for the first time ever we are taking heat, and we are crumbling under it. If you, or anyone else is truly interested in learning why the whole "colorblind" motto hurts more than it helps, check out the documentary "The Color of Fear." It was filmed in 1994, which I think is important for you regarding how you think things are getting worse than they used to be. Maybe you can see things are just getting louder, not worse. Additionally, I don't want to argue with you. I'm not here to crap on you or try and make you feel like a bad person. But this is what Korver meant by holding others accountable and speaking up. If you truly view yourself as an ally, that's how you do it.

The Color of Fear: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0484384/

I understand your opinion. I understand you believe in it. I've been through it and it leads to worse race relations. I can't convince you, but I have to at least speak up. You're going down the wrong road. But it's not just you, it's the prevailing thought. It's unfortunate. All I want is the best strategy and, like so much of prevailing thought, this is a bad strategy.

I don't deny there are racial problems. It's not a matter of me just saying "not my problem". But I must disagree with "solutions" that I see as making things worse. I'd be a real bystander if I just agreed with something, thinking it was incorrect.

Observing race has a slightly indirect, but intimate relationship with racism. It's one the average member of the population cannot or will not parse (for a variety of reasons--bigger discussion). Thus the strategy of viewing everything through the prism of race leads to a majority of the population prone to racism or at least susceptible to it, and subsequently the salience of race misdirects our efforts to solve racism.

My biggest problem with this, is that I'm being told not to think differently about a problem that is seemingly getting worse during this era. Either the perception of racism's impact is off-base, or my concern is justified by the current prevailing strategy's failure to improve anything.

[gift]

IDK if someone said this already, I can't bring myself to read every response, but Korver was able to eloquently describe a lot of what's going on in this thread.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

TL;DR if you're fighting this tooth and nail rather than listening, you're part of the problem. And yes, racist, whether you are actively trying to be or not. *Shrug*

There's inherently something wrong with accusing someone of racism because they'd rather not observe race at all.

The common thing among racists and those who view everything through a prism of racism, is that race is extremely important to both. In this way, those who choose to be "colorblind" are further removed from racism.

At one time, it was a popular strategy to choose not to see race. And in my opinion, things started to get better (not perfect, but moving in the right direction). Now, you are being called racist for choosing that strategy. In this way, you will never defeat racists, because even in the absence of serious racism, you will have those who just go about their business regardless of race. It's a bad strategy, and in my opinion it's why things seem to be getting worse, not because racism is increasing in power, relevance or frequency. Our awareness is raised and therefore the racism that always will exist is magnified beyond what it needs to be.

But according to Korver, I'm a racist for having this opinion. Don't you see the problem with that thought? It's making an ally into an opponent needlessly. Stop. That's the wrong way to do it.

Ok let me break this down for you. To your first point, "because they'd rather not observe race at all." This speaks to part of Korver's thesis statement. You, being a white male (I'm assuming) can ignore race. You can make that active choice to be "colorblind." PoC don't have that choice, they are constantly judged by their race. You choosing to ignore race because it makes you uncomfortable is not helping PoC. This is exactly what he mean's by "The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time."

To your second point, removing yourself from racism is removing your acknowledgment of it. By doing that you are telling PoC they are on their own. You are no longer actively contributing to stopping it.

To your third point, because something is being ignored, doesn't mean it's getting better. It just means that you aren't seeing it, therefore you think it's getting better. For PoC, it's all the same. Also, there's no such thing as "serious racism," just racism.

And fourth, after reading through all this I hope you see you are not acting like an ally. You are a bystander. By allowing racism to happen and not holding others accountable, even if you yourself aren't the one doing racist things, you are saying to PoC "It's not my problem, don't make me uncomfortable."

Please believe me, I don't think you're a bad person. I think the majority of this board is most likely great people. I used to say I was colorblind too, I get it. I don't want to feel blamed for being a white male. I didn't do anything wrong to anyone, why is it my fault? But you have to look past that and listen to others. We have it so easy in this country. And for the first time ever we are taking heat, and we are crumbling under it. If you, or anyone else is truly interested in learning why the whole "colorblind" motto hurts more than it helps, check out the documentary "The Color of Fear." It was filmed in 1994, which I think is important for you regarding how you think things are getting worse than they used to be. Maybe you can see things are just getting louder, not worse. Additionally, I don't want to argue with you. I'm not here to crap on you or try and make you feel like a bad person. But this is what Korver meant by holding others accountable and speaking up. If you truly view yourself as an ally, that's how you do it.

The Color of Fear: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0484384/

I just want to clarify that I don't propose ignoring racism. Racism is real and should not be tolerated. What I want to overlook is a constant, everyday distinction between races where there is no racism present. This doesn't allow you to escape race, and therefore any conflicts will be by default racist, ignoring other variables or causes to those conflicts, which precludes their solutions.

And I want to be allowed to advocate this strategy, which I believe is superior, rather than be called a bystander or racist or enabler or complacent. I'd rather just be called stupid if you don't believe my approach has any merit. That's a more appropriate critique. But those other responses are dismissive without consideration.

[number_n9ne]

IDK if someone said this already, I can't bring myself to read every response, but Korver was able to eloquently describe a lot of what's going on in this thread.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

TL;DR if you're fighting this tooth and nail rather than listening, you're part of the problem. And yes, racist, whether you are actively trying to be or not. *Shrug*

There's inherently something wrong with accusing someone of racism because they'd rather not observe race at all.

The common thing among racists and those who view everything through a prism of racism, is that race is extremely important to both. In this way, those who choose to be "colorblind" are further removed from racism.

At one time, it was a popular strategy to choose not to see race. And in my opinion, things started to get better (not perfect, but moving in the right direction). Now, you are being called racist for choosing that strategy. In this way, you will never defeat racists, because even in the absence of serious racism, you will have those who just go about their business regardless of race. It's a bad strategy, and in my opinion it's why things seem to be getting worse, not because racism is increasing in power, relevance or frequency. Our awareness is raised and therefore the racism that always will exist is magnified beyond what it needs to be.

But according to Korver, I'm a racist for having this opinion. Don't you see the problem with that thought? It's making an ally into an opponent needlessly. Stop. That's the wrong way to do it.

Ok let me break this down for you. To your first point, "because they'd rather not observe race at all." This speaks to part of Korver's thesis statement. You, being a white male (I'm assuming) can ignore race. You can make that active choice to be "colorblind." PoC don't have that choice, they are constantly judged by their race. You choosing to ignore race because it makes you uncomfortable is not helping PoC. This is exactly what he mean's by "The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time."

To your second point, removing yourself from racism is removing your acknowledgment of it. By doing that you are telling PoC they are on their own. You are no longer actively contributing to stopping it.

To your third point, because something is being ignored, doesn't mean it's getting better. It just means that you aren't seeing it, therefore you think it's getting better. For PoC, it's all the same. Also, there's no such thing as "serious racism," just racism.

And fourth, after reading through all this I hope you see you are not acting like an ally. You are a bystander. By allowing racism to happen and not holding others accountable, even if you yourself aren't the one doing racist things, you are saying to PoC "It's not my problem, don't make me uncomfortable."

Please believe me, I don't think you're a bad person. I think the majority of this board is most likely great people. I used to say I was colorblind too, I get it. I don't want to feel blamed for being a white male. I didn't do anything wrong to anyone, why is it my fault? But you have to look past that and listen to others. We have it so easy in this country. And for the first time ever we are taking heat, and we are crumbling under it. If you, or anyone else is truly interested in learning why the whole "colorblind" motto hurts more than it helps, check out the documentary "The Color of Fear." It was filmed in 1994, which I think is important for you regarding how you think things are getting worse than they used to be. Maybe you can see things are just getting louder, not worse. Additionally, I don't want to argue with you. I'm not here to crap on you or try and make you feel like a bad person. But this is what Korver meant by holding others accountable and speaking up. If you truly view yourself as an ally, that's how you do it.

The Color of Fear: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0484384/

I understand your opinion. I understand you believe in it. I've been through it and it leads to worse race relations. I can't convince you, but I have to at least speak up. You're going down the wrong road. But it's not just you, it's the prevailing thought. It's unfortunate. All I want is the best strategy and, like so much of prevailing thought, this is a bad strategy.

I don't deny there are racial problems. It's not a matter of me just saying "not my problem". But I must disagree with "solutions" that I see as making things worse. I'd be a real bystander if I just agreed with something, thinking it was incorrect.

Observing race has a slightly indirect, but intimate relationship with racism. It's one the average member of the population cannot or will not parse (for a variety of reasons--bigger discussion). Thus the strategy of viewing everything through the prism of race leads to a majority of the population prone to racism or at least susceptible to it, and subsequently the salience of race misdirects our efforts to solve racism.

My biggest problem with this, is that I'm being told not to think differently about a problem that is seemingly getting worse during this era. Either the perception of racism's impact is off-base, or my concern is justified by the current prevailing strategy's failure to improve anything.

I hear you. At this moment, I feel exactly like you but opposite. And I can say that I have felt exactly like you and had a similar viewpoint. I think you're right, there's a lot of telling you or others who share your viewpoint how to feel, especially by me or people who share my viewpoint. And the "telling" is a very divisive, accusatory mechanic. If I think back, I used to react very negatively to others telling me how to feel, think, or how I should be. It's not fair that I'm in turn doing that to you or others. I think a better way to go about this rather than telling is to keep discussing and encouraging each other to listen. I disagree with you that things are getting worse in this era. What PoC have told me is that things are the same as they have always been, it's just now people are speaking out about it. Whether this is race, #MeToo, LGBTQ rights or the next thing – people feel empowered to speak their truth. So at this point all I can do is encourage you to at least hear people out. Actively listen and try not to dismiss their truths so quickly. And seriously, check out "The Color of Fear," it is a life-changing film and might give you some more to think about.

[gift]

IDK if someone said this already, I can't bring myself to read every response, but Korver was able to eloquently describe a lot of what's going on in this thread.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

TL;DR if you're fighting this tooth and nail rather than listening, you're part of the problem. And yes, racist, whether you are actively trying to be or not. *Shrug*

There's inherently something wrong with accusing someone of racism because they'd rather not observe race at all.

The common thing among racists and those who view everything through a prism of racism, is that race is extremely important to both. In this way, those who choose to be "colorblind" are further removed from racism.

At one time, it was a popular strategy to choose not to see race. And in my opinion, things started to get better (not perfect, but moving in the right direction). Now, you are being called racist for choosing that strategy. In this way, you will never defeat racists, because even in the absence of serious racism, you will have those who just go about their business regardless of race. It's a bad strategy, and in my opinion it's why things seem to be getting worse, not because racism is increasing in power, relevance or frequency. Our awareness is raised and therefore the racism that always will exist is magnified beyond what it needs to be.

But according to Korver, I'm a racist for having this opinion. Don't you see the problem with that thought? It's making an ally into an opponent needlessly. Stop. That's the wrong way to do it.

This is what happens when you only look at pieces of an article, you come up with things that were never the intent of the drafter.

If the quote doesn't match the intent, it shouldn't be included in the article. If the quote can be taken the wrong way by me, it can also be taken the wrong way by others, who maybe don't share Korver's intent, but rather his literal statement, no? Perhaps we should critique the article rather than praise its intent for this very reason.

You can pull anything out of context.  That was my point.

Therefore it's worth critiquing the literal quote.

Are you seriously arguing that context should be ignored?

If that was my argument I probably would have included some sequence of words to that effect.

Instead, can you imagine a world in which a statement is worthy of critique within the context of the discussion we are having, even if it is not the context of the original piece?

[gift]

IDK if someone said this already, I can't bring myself to read every response, but Korver was able to eloquently describe a lot of what's going on in this thread.

But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.

TL;DR if you're fighting this tooth and nail rather than listening, you're part of the problem. And yes, racist, whether you are actively trying to be or not. *Shrug*

There's inherently something wrong with accusing someone of racism because they'd rather not observe race at all.

The common thing among racists and those who view everything through a prism of racism, is that race is extremely important to both. In this way, those who choose to be "colorblind" are further removed from racism.

At one time, it was a popular strategy to choose not to see race. And in my opinion, things started to get better (not perfect, but moving in the right direction). Now, you are being called racist for choosing that strategy. In this way, you will never defeat racists, because even in the absence of serious racism, you will have those who just go about their business regardless of race. It's a bad strategy, and in my opinion it's why things seem to be getting worse, not because racism is increasing in power, relevance or frequency. Our awareness is raised and therefore the racism that always will exist is magnified beyond what it needs to be.

But according to Korver, I'm a racist for having this opinion. Don't you see the problem with that thought? It's making an ally into an opponent needlessly. Stop. That's the wrong way to do it.

This is what happens when you only look at pieces of an article, you come up with things that were never the intent of the drafter.

If the quote doesn't match the intent, it shouldn't be included in the article. If the quote can be taken the wrong way by me, it can also be taken the wrong way by others, who maybe don't share Korver's intent, but rather his literal statement, no? Perhaps we should critique the article rather than praise its intent for this very reason.

You can pull anything out of context.  That was my point.

Therefore it's worth critiquing the literal quote.

Are you seriously arguing that context should be ignored?

No, I think he’s arguing the quote was sloppy and unclear, regardless of context.  It implies that something nefarious is going on when white people don’t put everything into a racial context.

He didn't argue it was poorly written (which it certainly could have been written better, but then again he is a professional basketball player).  And the second part, it only implies something nefarious when you take it out of context.  That is why context matters.

"If the quote doesn't match the intent, it shouldn't be included in the article."