Has Jokic surpassed Anthony Davis as the best big man?

[GreenCoffeeBean]

Woooosh. People on this forum like a player and really want to push it. Jokic is going to be exposed in the playoffs.

[ederson]

Woooosh. People on this forum like a player and really want to push it. Jokic is going to be exposed in the playoffs.

Jokic needs pushing He's been an All NBA calliber player this season!

[Moranis]

The J rating doesn't tell you who is a better player, but is meant to tell you who is having a better season. Among big men this year, I have these guys in this order (per game rating):

Joel Embiid    1.14
Anthony Davis   1.10 (was much higher before the trade drama)
Karl Anthony Towns  1.01
Nikola Jokic    .99
Nikola Vucevic    .94
Rudy Gobert    .92
Blake Griffin    .91
Andre Drummond  .90

I think Embiid and Towns compare to Jokic the same way Davis does. They all appear to be significantly more dominant players.

And then you look and realize that Jokic has the biggest bottom line impact on winning.

The difference in talent between Embiid's teammates and Jokic's teammates is huge, and yet, Denver is still the better team. The gap isn't that large, but they are better.

It is fair to want to see Jokic continue this through the playoffs, and perhaps for more than one year. But so far, he's the best of the lot.

What are you using to determine this? Also, what are you using to determine that Denver is better than Philadelphia?

The Denver Nuggets have won a few more games in a tougher conference. Its really that simple.

The only argument against this is that it really isn't Jokic. Its that other Denver players are better. Its the coach.

I know depth matters, and Denver's bench is better. But it is difficult to swallow any explanation that asserts that Jokic has as good an overall supporting cast as Embiid does, or that win totals are just as hard to achieve in the East.

The Sixers are 7-8 when Embiid doesn't play.  Jokic hasn't missed a game, but Denver's win percentage is slightly worse than Philly's when Embiid plays (67.1 vs. 67.7).  Per 100 possessions, Denver is only 2.7 better with Jokic on the floor, while Philly is 9.7 points better with Embiid.  That is in a large part due to Jokic's average at best defense.  The only real way Jokic impacts winning more than Embiid is by actually staying on the floor and not missing games.  That isn't to be undersold as availability is often the best bility, but it also doesn't really show who is actually better.

and I do think you are significantly underselling the talent in Denver.  Millsap, in particular, never seems to get the credit he deserves.  Plumlee and Hernangomez are very good backup bigs.  Murray, Harris, Barton, and Morris are a very strong 4 small rotation, plus they have some other guys like Beasley, Craig, Lyles and that doesn't even account for IT4.  Depth and health are often the most indicative thing in regular season success.  The real talent test is the playoffs when rotation shrinks and starters play more, but even then I think you are underselling the talent in Denver.

[gift]

The J rating doesn't tell you who is a better player, but is meant to tell you who is having a better season. Among big men this year, I have these guys in this order (per game rating):

Joel Embiid    1.14
Anthony Davis   1.10 (was much higher before the trade drama)
Karl Anthony Towns  1.01
Nikola Jokic    .99
Nikola Vucevic    .94
Rudy Gobert    .92
Blake Griffin    .91
Andre Drummond  .90

I think Embiid and Towns compare to Jokic the same way Davis does. They all appear to be significantly more dominant players.

And then you look and realize that Jokic has the biggest bottom line impact on winning.

The difference in talent between Embiid's teammates and Jokic's teammates is huge, and yet, Denver is still the better team. The gap isn't that large, but they are better.

It is fair to want to see Jokic continue this through the playoffs, and perhaps for more than one year. But so far, he's the best of the lot.

What are you using to determine this? Also, what are you using to determine that Denver is better than Philadelphia?

The Denver Nuggets have won a few more games in a tougher conference. Its really that simple.

The only argument against this is that it really isn't Jokic. Its that other Denver players are better. Its the coach.

I know depth matters, and Denver's bench is better. But it is difficult to swallow any explanation that asserts that Jokic has as good an overall supporting cast as Embiid does, or that win totals are just as hard to achieve in the East.

There are a lot of presuppositions there. Which is fine as far as inclinations go. But can't really support any arguments on their own.

What are the teams' records post-trade deadline (with teams in their current form)? What is Philly's record vs the West? You say talent doesn't equal wins. But then argue a single player on a team with more wins must be better.

[boscel33]

When did Anthony Davis become best big man.

About the same time that Cousins blew out his Achilles tendon.

That's funny, I think I'd rather have KAT than AD.

[smokeablount]

When did Anthony Davis become best big man.

About the same time that Cousins blew out his Achilles tendon.

That's funny, I think I'd rather have KAT than AD.

With how KAT has been playing it’s defensible... but only one of them is potentially available, and it isn’t KAT.

[RPGenerate]

When did Anthony Davis become best big man.

About the same time that Cousins blew out his Achilles tendon.

That's funny, I think I'd rather have KAT than AD.

KAT is a mediocre defender, and has played horribly in the only playoff series he's been in. I'll stick with AD.

[celticsclay]

When people are debating these top big men, how much are injuries being considered? I think we may undervalue these guys missing 20 games a year. Davis was a bit healthier the last few years before this playing 75 games in each. Previously he was missing 15-20 games every year (and will this year too for a variety of reasons). Embiid misses more time, having never played in more than 63 games in a season in the 5 seasons since he was drafted. By the time he returns after the current 76ers road trip he will have missed 12 of 20 games since the all-star break. One of the main reasons the Nuggets may get into at least the 2nd round is because Jokic has played every game. If he misses 20 games this year, are the nuggets like the 6th seed instead of 2nd?

[SparzWizard]

When did Anthony Davis become best big man.

When his PER is nearly equivalent to LeBron James and Michael Jordan.

[Moranis]

When people are debating these top big men, how much are injuries being considered? I think we may undervalue these guys missing 20 games a year. Davis was a bit healthier the last few years before this playing 75 games in each. Previously he was missing 15-20 games every year (and will this year too for a variety of reasons). Embiid misses more time, having never played in more than 63 games in a season in the 5 seasons since he was drafted. By the time he returns after the current 76ers road trip he will have missed 12 of 20 games since the all-star break. One of the main reasons the Nuggets may get into at least the 2nd round is because Jokic has played every game. If he misses 20 games this year, are the nuggets like the 6th seed instead of 2nd?

Health absolutely matters, but I'd rather have Shaq than Robinson even though Shaq was always missing games and Robinson was not (and both are HOFers).  So for me, health would be almost like a tiebreaker.  I just think Embiid and Davis are in a class above Jokic, so I'd overlook the health related issues, but I can certainly see why someone wouldn't.

[rondofan1255]

Davis and Embiid over Jokic for sure imo
Would also pick KAT over Jokic too.

Kawhi made all nba 1st team over Durant in 2016 and 2017, but could argue Durant was the better player both years and still is

[PhoSita]

KAT is an empty stats guy for me until he proves otherwise.  He's more athletic Enes Kanter.

[gouki88]

KAT is an empty stats guy for me until he proves otherwise.  He's more athletic Enes Kanter.

This is incredibly dismissive of his vast offensive talent and ability to rebound the ball.

Plus he doesn't play like Kanter at all really

[tazzmaniac]

When people are debating these top big men, how much are injuries being considered? I think we may undervalue these guys missing 20 games a year. Davis was a bit healthier the last few years before this playing 75 games in each. Previously he was missing 15-20 games every year (and will this year too for a variety of reasons). Embiid misses more time, having never played in more than 63 games in a season in the 5 seasons since he was drafted. By the time he returns after the current 76ers road trip he will have missed 12 of 20 games since the all-star break. One of the main reasons the Nuggets may get into at least the 2nd round is because Jokic has played every game. If he misses 20 games this year, are the nuggets like the 6th seed instead of 2nd?

Did the Nuggets get a bye?  Otherwise there is no guarantee that they'll make it out of the 1st round. 

Once a player gets to around 60 games, I think availability is a minor factor.  In other words, it should play into how players in the same tier are ranked against each other but it shouldn't cause a player to change tiers.  Embiid and AD are dominant 2-way bigs and that puts them into the top tier by themselves. 

[action781]

My ten is more 3 tiers
1. Embiid 2. Jokic 3. Davis

4. Cousins 5. Horford 6. Collins 7. Ayton
8. Aldridge

9. Capela 10. Vuc

We disagree on many, but no Gobert in top 10?
That guy guarantees 50 win season for his team whenever he is on the court.
No KAT too? Adams, Turner, Kristaps?

Your 4. 6. & 7. didn't log a career playoff game between the 3 of them.
I believe there is a reason for it involving their own impact on winning.

Here is mine top 11, criteria is who would I take for a playoff series starting tommorow:
(No Zinger)

1. Davis
2. Embiid
3. Jokić
4. Gobert
5. KAT
6. Horford
7. Aldridge
8. Capela
9. Adams
10. DMC
11. Turner

As you can see I am a firm big Al believer.

I'm pretty much in line with this list of rankings for centers for #1 - #7.  After #7, my own rankings would probably change depending on my mood that day.