Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?

[DefenseWinsChamps]

He's not the worst contract of the entire offseason, but he's definitely on that "candidate list" for being one, especially now that he's likely coming off the bench from here on out (unless Embiid is hurt or load managed)

I am curious who is clearly worse at this point? Rozier who was mentioned is making 10 million less a year and putting up 18 points and 4 rebounds and 4 assists while shooting 39% from 3. You would like to see him shoot a bit better from the field but given his 9 year age difference from Horford or whatever, would definitely rather have his contract than Horfords.

Harris? He is at 19 and 7. Not what you want from a max contract, but again he is not going to curdle the next few years like Horford will continue to do.

Any other contract a contender?

That's an odd comparison to Rozier. I think the Sixers like having Horford under his contract much more than the Hornets like having Rozier under his right now. I like Rozier, but high usage guards that can score 15-18 ppg on a bad team but cannot set up teammates are pretty common in the NBA, and they aren't helping anyone win championships. Horford is a much better player and better asset on his contract. .

If we had to convert their relative value to a standard, I would think Rozier would be worth at most an expiring and a lottery-protected first. Horford would be worth a role player on a decent contract, a young asset (not a star-potential asset, but still a young player), and a first or second (depending on the quality of the role player). They would get a similar package to the one that the Grizzles got for Gasol (Jonas, Wright, Miles, and a 2nd).

I'll put it this way: don't you think the Blazers would have been willing to trade Whiteside, Collins, and a first for Horford? I even think that in whispers they would have offered Simons instead of Collins.

All 30 teams, if all things were equal, would rather have Horford at 28 million than Rozier at 18 million.

What in the world are you talking about? Every single writer or analyst I have heard that covers the NBA has mentioned Horford is a negative asset at this point... jesus.

Well, I disagree with them. I don't generally listen to talking heads. The truth is that most teams realize that Harris and Horford could probably be had for less than their true value because the Sixer situation is a mess and Philly knows they have to try something else.

But that doesn't mean that, all things being equal, Horford is worth less on his contract than Rozier on his. You could argue that Rozier isn't even the best guard on that team (although I'm not really a Graham fan), and the other guard makes like 6% of Rozier's contract.

I know the Sixers situation is bad. It's sad that Horford has become the fall guy. He doesn't deserve that. He's a really good player that can help good teams, but he can't fix a team that's fundamentally broken. He shouldn't be expected to. That's not his role.

Just because the narrative in the echo chamber of NBA talking heads has swung that far, doesn't make it so.

[celticsclay]

He's not the worst contract of the entire offseason, but he's definitely on that "candidate list" for being one, especially now that he's likely coming off the bench from here on out (unless Embiid is hurt or load managed)

I am curious who is clearly worse at this point? Rozier who was mentioned is making 10 million less a year and putting up 18 points and 4 rebounds and 4 assists while shooting 39% from 3. You would like to see him shoot a bit better from the field but given his 9 year age difference from Horford or whatever, would definitely rather have his contract than Horfords.

Harris? He is at 19 and 7. Not what you want from a max contract, but again he is not going to curdle the next few years like Horford will continue to do.

Any other contract a contender?

That's an odd comparison to Rozier. I think the Sixers like having Horford under his contract much more than the Hornets like having Rozier under his right now. I like Rozier, but high usage guards that can score 15-18 ppg on a bad team but cannot set up teammates are pretty common in the NBA, and they aren't helping anyone win championships. Horford is a much better player and better asset on his contract. .

If we had to convert their relative value to a standard, I would think Rozier would be worth at most an expiring and a lottery-protected first. Horford would be worth a role player on a decent contract, a young asset (not a star-potential asset, but still a young player), and a first or second (depending on the quality of the role player). They would get a similar package to the one that the Grizzles got for Gasol (Jonas, Wright, Miles, and a 2nd).

I'll put it this way: don't you think the Blazers would have been willing to trade Whiteside, Collins, and a first for Horford? I even think that in whispers they would have offered Simons instead of Collins.

All 30 teams, if all things were equal, would rather have Horford at 28 million than Rozier at 18 million.

What in the world are you talking about? Every single writer or analyst I have heard that covers the NBA has mentioned Horford is a negative asset at this point... jesus.

Well, I disagree with them. I don't generally listen to talking heads. The truth is that most teams realize that Harris and Horford could probably be had for less than their true value because the Sixer situation is a mess and Philly knows they have to try something else.

But that doesn't mean that, all things being equal, Horford is worth less on his contract than Rozier on his. You could argue that Rozier isn't even the best guard on that team (although I'm not really a Graham fan), and the other guard makes like 6% of Rozier's contract.

I know the Sixers situation is bad. It's sad that Horford has become the fall guy. He doesn't deserve that. He's a really good player that can help good teams, but he can't fix a team that's fundamentally broken. He shouldn't be expected to. That's not his role.

Just because the narrative in the echo chamber of NBA talking heads has swung that far, doesn't make it so.

I am not talking about Steven A. Smith on a rant here. I am talking about people like Lowe who are consistently very accurate about player's values. While I do think Horford could start for some teams (including the blazers) he is not starting on a ton of them also. He has also proven he can't play the 4 along with a traditional 5 with this experiment. You can't pay a guy essentially 30 million a year for the next two years when he is a fringe starter. Simons is locked up for the next three years for a total of 12 million dollars. The idea that the blazers would give up a promising prospect, a first round pick and a 7 foot tall former lottery pick that still has some upside for the prospect of paying Horford 70 million the next 3 years is so beyond absurd. I would go so far as to say that Silver would give Brand a breathilyzer before he allowed that trade to go though...

[Monkhouse]

The 76ers situation is slightly different, because they were in the same position as us; where they would eventually be over the cap the year after due to Simmons/Embiid/Harris, so why not just use the following available cap space on a big that can spell Embiid? Sure coming off the bench sucks, but in the playoffs where Horford has way more value anyways, and the game is slower, I'd definitely rather have Horford over Rozier.

I don't even think Rozier impacts winning that much at all.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

He's not the worst contract of the entire offseason, but he's definitely on that "candidate list" for being one, especially now that he's likely coming off the bench from here on out (unless Embiid is hurt or load managed)

I am curious who is clearly worse at this point? Rozier who was mentioned is making 10 million less a year and putting up 18 points and 4 rebounds and 4 assists while shooting 39% from 3. You would like to see him shoot a bit better from the field but given his 9 year age difference from Horford or whatever, would definitely rather have his contract than Horfords.

Harris? He is at 19 and 7. Not what you want from a max contract, but again he is not going to curdle the next few years like Horford will continue to do.

Any other contract a contender?

That's an odd comparison to Rozier. I think the Sixers like having Horford under his contract much more than the Hornets like having Rozier under his right now. I like Rozier, but high usage guards that can score 15-18 ppg on a bad team but cannot set up teammates are pretty common in the NBA, and they aren't helping anyone win championships. Horford is a much better player and better asset on his contract. .

If we had to convert their relative value to a standard, I would think Rozier would be worth at most an expiring and a lottery-protected first. Horford would be worth a role player on a decent contract, a young asset (not a star-potential asset, but still a young player), and a first or second (depending on the quality of the role player). They would get a similar package to the one that the Grizzles got for Gasol (Jonas, Wright, Miles, and a 2nd).

I'll put it this way: don't you think the Blazers would have been willing to trade Whiteside, Collins, and a first for Horford? I even think that in whispers they would have offered Simons instead of Collins.

All 30 teams, if all things were equal, would rather have Horford at 28 million than Rozier at 18 million.

What in the world are you talking about? Every single writer or analyst I have heard that covers the NBA has mentioned Horford is a negative asset at this point... jesus.

Well, I disagree with them. I don't generally listen to talking heads. The truth is that most teams realize that Harris and Horford could probably be had for less than their true value because the Sixer situation is a mess and Philly knows they have to try something else.

But that doesn't mean that, all things being equal, Horford is worth less on his contract than Rozier on his. You could argue that Rozier isn't even the best guard on that team (although I'm not really a Graham fan), and the other guard makes like 6% of Rozier's contract.

I know the Sixers situation is bad. It's sad that Horford has become the fall guy. He doesn't deserve that. He's a really good player that can help good teams, but he can't fix a team that's fundamentally broken. He shouldn't be expected to. That's not his role.

Just because the narrative in the echo chamber of NBA talking heads has swung that far, doesn't make it so.

I am not talking about Steven A. Smith on a rant here. I am talking about people like Lowe who are consistently very accurate about player's values. While I do think Horford could start for some teams (including the blazers) he is not starting on a ton of them also. He has also proven he can't play the 4 along with a traditional 5 with this experiment. You can't pay a guy essentially 30 million a year for the next two years when he is a fringe starter. Simons is locked up for the next three years for a total of 12 million dollars. The idea that the blazers would give up a promising prospect, a first round pick and a 7 foot tall former lottery pick that still has some upside for the prospect of paying Horford 70 million the next 3 years is so beyond absurd. I would go so far as to say that Silver would give Brand a breathilyzer before he allowed that trade to go though...

Look at the trade idea I proposed again. That's not what I suggested.

I like Lowe. I could be wrong.

But I don't think I am. Too many players have been maligned and too many careers have been upended because of the dysfunction in Philly. I don't think it should happen to Horford.

This is on Brown. This is on Brand. This is on Embiid and Simmons.

We wouldn't even be having this conversation if the Sixers offense was any good. That's not Horford's fault. He's shooting the most threes of his career to help stretch the floor. He's a good passer. He doesn't need the ball in his hands a lot. He's unselfish. If Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid knew how to play with each other, we would not be having this conversation at all. Instead, we may be talking about how Horford is the perfect fit, or how he is an elite super-role player like Iggy.

[celticsclay]

Horford was team worst -26 in 18 minutes tonight. Basically got benched down the stretch and overtime. His play was so bad they were forced to play Embiid 41 minutes tonight. Man, feels like a long time ago people were pumping up Horford in this thread.

[gouki88]

Horford was team worst -26 in 18 minutes tonight. Basically got benched down the stretch and overtime. His play was so bad they were forced to play Embiid 41 minutes tonight. Man, feels like a long time ago people were pumping up Horford in this thread.

Al Horford since the new year has been quite an average player. Good passing and he doesn't turn it over (which is especially valuable in Philly), but other than that he hasn't really done ... anything well. His defence is good in spurts, but he's too often put on guys too quick for him.

[hpantazo]

Horford was team worst -26 in 18 minutes tonight. Basically got benched down the stretch and overtime. His play was so bad they were forced to play Embiid 41 minutes tonight. Man, feels like a long time ago people were pumping up Horford in this thread.

Al Horford since the new year has been quite an average player. Good passing and he doesn't turn it over (which is especially valuable in Philly), but other than that he hasn't really done ... anything well. His defence is good in spurts, but he's too often put on guys too quick for him.

With Horford showing a steep decline of aging, and Kyrie out again for the stretch run with another surgery, the Celtics dodged some big bullets by not re-signing those two guys to big contracts.

The season would have really sucked right about now if they were both Celtics this year.

[GreenFaith1819]

My gut tells me that Al Horford is STILL a lot better than he's being showcased as in PHI...they aren't using him as well as Coach Stevens would.

In a perfect world we could've kept him AND sign Kemba...had Theis/Kanter and RWill play behind him...let Stevens get the best out of him....

Oh well. The world is anything BUT perfect.

See ya in the Playoffs, Al......or not - depending on the matchups.

[Somebody]

Horford was team worst -26 in 18 minutes tonight. Basically got benched down the stretch and overtime. His play was so bad they were forced to play Embiid 41 minutes tonight. Man, feels like a long time ago people were pumping up Horford in this thread.

Al Horford since the new year has been quite an average player. Good passing and he doesn't turn it over (which is especially valuable in Philly), but other than that he hasn't really done ... anything well. His defence is good in spurts, but he's too often put on guys too quick for him.

To be fair he'd still be a very good defensive centre (old man defence at the 5 can still be very effective) with playmaking and shooting chops in a high ball security package if he wasn't playing for Philly. That's above average to very good to me even though I'd flinch at his 28 million price tag.

[gouki88]

Horford was team worst -26 in 18 minutes tonight. Basically got benched down the stretch and overtime. His play was so bad they were forced to play Embiid 41 minutes tonight. Man, feels like a long time ago people were pumping up Horford in this thread.

Al Horford since the new year has been quite an average player. Good passing and he doesn't turn it over (which is especially valuable in Philly), but other than that he hasn't really done ... anything well. His defence is good in spurts, but he's too often put on guys too quick for him.

To be fair he'd still be a very good defensive centre (old man defence at the 5 can still be very effective) with playmaking and shooting chops in a high ball security package if he wasn't playing for Philly. That's above average to very good to me even though I'd flinch at his 28 million price tag.

I agree - I feel like on another team, or more specifically with a different coach and some different teammates, he could still be the guy we had. 14/7/5 with elite defence and good shooting was probably not out of reach if Brown were a competent coach - however, it might be the case that Al never returns to that form, and most likely will never be worth his contract.

[Moranis]

There was like a 15 minute stretch where the Sixers went from up 20-4 to down 50-30 so a 46-10 run by the Nets.  That was mostly by the benches of both teams.  Horford was obviously on the floor for a large portion of that (I think like 9 minutes).  At one point the entire bench was in the -20's.  Horford just didn't play much after that.  Maybe he was really bad, but it didn't stop the rest of the bench from coming back in and recovering.  Just seems strange. 

[tonydelk]

There was like a 15 minute stretch where the Sixers went from up 20-4 to down 50-30 so a 46-10 run by the Nets.  That was mostly by the benches of both teams.  Horford was obviously on the floor for a large portion of that (I think like 9 minutes).  At one point the entire bench was in the -20's.  Horford just didn't play much after that.  Maybe he was really bad, but it didn't stop the rest of the bench from coming back in and recovering.  Just seems strange.

This is what happens when you chase money over fit.  That Philly team has so much talent but as many have stated they are last years Celtic's team.  Fit is important and this year C's have proven that point.  Philly needs shooters and has way to many ball handlers.  Al is not a good fit because Embiid does what Al does but better.  Al should be playing Center at this stage of his career.  PF's are killing him, especially small ball PF's. Now Philly is stuck paying big bucks to another guy who just doesn't work.  Philly needs some major changes next year. 

[celticsclay]

There was like a 15 minute stretch where the Sixers went from up 20-4 to down 50-30 so a 46-10 run by the Nets.  That was mostly by the benches of both teams.  Horford was obviously on the floor for a large portion of that (I think like 9 minutes).  At one point the entire bench was in the -20's.  Horford just didn't play much after that.  Maybe he was really bad, but it didn't stop the rest of the bench from coming back in and recovering.  Just seems strange.

Oh don’t worry. I can tell you. He wasn’t just bad he was awful. Brown has pride and doesn’t want to bench him because it makes the front office look like idiots. This is why his coming off the bench took about 25 more games than any average fan could see.

[Fafnir]

I don't know if he can provide elite defense anymore. Remember that period last year when his knee was acting up and he was looking extra stiff/creaky?

Most of this year has been that for the 76ers.

He's not bad, but the drop off from elite to adequate is a big deal.

[celticsclay]

I don't know if he can provide elite defense anymore. Remember that period last year when his knee was acting up and he was looking extra stiff/creaky?

Most of this year has been that for the 76ers.

He's not bad, but the drop off from elite to adequate is a big deal.

That was one of my earlier posts when i started this thread, mentioning how he was dragging his leg around at points last year and it affected his defense. I agree he has been doing that with pretty decent frequency this year.