Thinking out loud - does Gordon for Brown makes sense for both Boston + Orlando?

[LarBrd33]

Yet I can't tell you how many times I've heard the pundits talking about Simmons absolutely dominating the summer league. It's ridiculous. He definitely looked excellent passing, but he was pretty mediocre elsewhere.

He certainly was not 'dominant', though there is no denying that he was extremely impressive.  You can't argue with Per-36 numbers of 15.2 Points, 12.2 Rebounds and 7.6 Assists.  That's crazy - a hell of a lot more impressive then what Okafor and KAT averaged in their summer league debuts, with the only disappointing part being his shooting really.  When Simmons works out how to finish in this league he's going to be a monster.

By comparison, here are the Per-36 numbers of the rest of the top 8 players:

- Ingram: 16.0 Pts, 5.5 Reb,  2.4 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 0.5 Blk
- Brown: 19.8 Pts, 7.6 Reb, 1.6 Ast, 2.9 Stl, 1 Blk
- Bender: 9.7 Pts, 6.3 Reb, 1.1 Ast, 1.1 Stl, 1.1 Blk
- Dunn: 25.5 Pts, 7.4 Reb, 2.9 Ast, 2.1 Stl, 1.0 Blk
- Hield: 19.0 Pts, 6.1 Reb, 4.3 Ast, 0.9 Stl, 0.2 Blk
- Murray: 23.9 Pts, 6.1 Reb, 4.3 Ast, 0.9 Stl, 0.2 Blk
- Chriss: 11.9 Pts, 10.7 Reb, 0.3 Ast, 0.3 Stl, 0.8 Blk

I think it's pretty clear that Simmons and Dunn had the best overall numbers out of the top 8, followed by Murray, Brown and Hield. 

The others were all 'unspectacular' to say the least.

Thanks for summing it up.

19 year old Gordon per-36:  23.9 points, 12.8 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.8 blocks, 1.4 steals - 50% FG, 50% 3P

19 year old Brown per-36:  19.8 points, 7.6 reounds, 1.6 assists, 1 block, 2.9 steals  32% FG, 22% 3P

So yeah, I agree with you.  Brown shows signs.  Gordon was better than him a year ago.

19 year old Gordon per-36:  23.9 points, 12.8 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.8 blocks, 1.4 steals - 50% FG, 50% 3P

18 year old Wiggins per-36: 15.5 points, 3.5 reb, 0.25 assists, 1.5 blocks, 1.25 steals - 40% FG, 15% 3PT

Was Gordon better then Wiggins a year ago?  Let me help you with that - the answer is no.  Wiggins led all rookies in scoring and won the ROY award, and nobody else came close.

But you may foolishly believe Gordon was better if you went off nothing but those Summer League stats.

Those stats are from Wiggins two years ago as a rookie ... in which he was clearly better than Aaron Gordon as a rookie... and has exactly jack squat to do with how Jaylen Brown played in Summer league this year compared to how Aaron Gordon played in Summer league last year... and whether or not Jaylen is anywhere near as good as Aaron Gordon heading into year 3. 

One could argue that Jaylen Brown was better as a 19 year old in Summer league than Gordon was as an 18 year old in Summer league.  But I fail to see how that proves Aaron Gordon as a 20 year old heading into his 3rd season is worse than Jaylen Brown as a 19 year old rookie.    Gordon is better right now.  Trading Gordon for Brown would make no sense for Orlando.   What we are seeing here is a bunch of histrionics from folks who are not addressing the key point of this thread.  Would trading Gordon for Brown make sense for Orlando?  No. 

[byennie]

Thanks for summing it up.

19 year old Gordon per-36:  23.9 points, 12.8 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.8 blocks, 1.4 steals - 50% FG, 50% 3P

19 year old Brown per-36:  19.8 points, 7.6 reounds, 1.6 assists, 1 block, 2.9 steals  32% FG, 22% 3P

So yeah, I agree with you.  Brown shows signs.  Gordon was better than him a year ago.

A year ago Gordon had already spent a full year in the NBA. You're cherry picking based on age.

So Gordon's 24/13 and 50% 3PT translates to 14/10 and 30% in real games, per-36.
Meanwhile, Brown had a better summer league than KAT, who is the best player out of all 3 hands down. All this does is reinforce that you can look for certain traits in summer league, and that yes, good > bad, but direct comparisons are utterly useless.

If we're just hunting for interesting signs, Brown's turnover and fouls were especially low compared to other guys on the list, despite driving repeatedly to the hole and playing aggressive defense. I have no idea if that means anything, but it's interesting =).

[LarBrd33]

Thanks for summing it up.

19 year old Gordon per-36:  23.9 points, 12.8 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.8 blocks, 1.4 steals - 50% FG, 50% 3P

19 year old Brown per-36:  19.8 points, 7.6 reounds, 1.6 assists, 1 block, 2.9 steals  32% FG, 22% 3P

So yeah, I agree with you.  Brown shows signs.  Gordon was better than him a year ago.

A year ago Gordon had already spent a full year in the NBA. You're cherry picking based on age.

So you agree... a year ago, Gordon, with a full year of NBA under his belt, was better than Jaylen Brown right now.  So clearly, right now... a full year after Gordon dominated Summer league and two years of NBA under his belt, he's unquestionably better than Jaylen Brown.

I can't help it if people looked at this thread and thought the question was how they think Jaylen and Gordon will project long term.   For all we know, 5 years from now Jaylen will be better.   That's not what this topic is about.  Read the Subject header again:

"Thinking out loud - does Gordon for Brown makes sense for both Boston + Orlando?"

No.  It makes no sense for Orlando.   Orlando wouldn't trade a better player 12 months older than Brown on a gamble that Brown will someday project better than a player who has shown major improvement already.   

Why is anyone disagreeing with this?  It's dumfounding.  Is it because Brown was drafted by the Celtics so he now has more potential than Gordon - who was literally drafted because of a perceived high ceiling and has already shown major progress?   

[byennie]

Those stats are from Wiggins two years ago as a rookie ... in which he was clearly better than Aaron Gordon as a rookie... and has exactly jack squat to do with how Jaylen Brown played in Summer league this year compared to how Aaron Gordon played in Summer league last year... and whether or not Jaylen is anywhere near as good as Aaron Gordon heading into year 3. 

One could argue that Jaylen Brown was better as a 19 year old in Summer league than Gordon was as an 18 year old in Summer league.  But I fail to see how that proves Aaron Gordon as a 20 year old heading into his 3rd season is worse than Jaylen Brown as a 19 year old rookie.    Gordon is better right now.  Trading Gordon for Brown would make no sense for Orlando.   What we are seeing here is a bunch of histrionics from folks who are not addressing the key point of this thread.  Would trading Gordon for Brown make sense for Orlando?  No.

You're defining the argument to suit your needs. The trade question isn't directly correlated to who is the better player at this instant, and you know that. IMO it's a "both sides say no" situation, but you can't prove your point by insisting on your own proxy for the OP's question.

[LarBrd33]

Those stats are from Wiggins two years ago as a rookie ... in which he was clearly better than Aaron Gordon as a rookie... and has exactly jack squat to do with how Jaylen Brown played in Summer league this year compared to how Aaron Gordon played in Summer league last year... and whether or not Jaylen is anywhere near as good as Aaron Gordon heading into year 3. 

One could argue that Jaylen Brown was better as a 19 year old in Summer league than Gordon was as an 18 year old in Summer league.  But I fail to see how that proves Aaron Gordon as a 20 year old heading into his 3rd season is worse than Jaylen Brown as a 19 year old rookie.    Gordon is better right now.  Trading Gordon for Brown would make no sense for Orlando.   What we are seeing here is a bunch of histrionics from folks who are not addressing the key point of this thread.  Would trading Gordon for Brown make sense for Orlando?  No.

You're defining the argument to suit your needs.

I'm really not.  Most people here don't understand what this thread is about.  Not my fault.  Read it again.

Would Orlando trade Gordon for Brown?  Of course not.

[byennie]

I can't help it if people looked at this thread and thought the question was how they think Jaylen and Gordon will project long term.

Your condescension of everyone's reading skill is duly noted; however, using long term projections to evaluate a hypothetical trade is quite reasonable. Obviously, context also matters, but you don't get to decide that everything is about current ability either.

[byennie]

Those stats are from Wiggins two years ago as a rookie ... in which he was clearly better than Aaron Gordon as a rookie... and has exactly jack squat to do with how Jaylen Brown played in Summer league this year compared to how Aaron Gordon played in Summer league last year... and whether or not Jaylen is anywhere near as good as Aaron Gordon heading into year 3. 

One could argue that Jaylen Brown was better as a 19 year old in Summer league than Gordon was as an 18 year old in Summer league.  But I fail to see how that proves Aaron Gordon as a 20 year old heading into his 3rd season is worse than Jaylen Brown as a 19 year old rookie.    Gordon is better right now.  Trading Gordon for Brown would make no sense for Orlando.   What we are seeing here is a bunch of histrionics from folks who are not addressing the key point of this thread.  Would trading Gordon for Brown make sense for Orlando?  No.

You're defining the argument to suit your needs.

I'm really not.  Most people here don't understand what this thread is about.  Not my fault.  Read it again.

Would Orlando trade Gordon for Brown?  Of course not.

I agree with your conclusion. I don't think they would do the deal. But I for one perfectly understand the premise of the thread and don't accept your argument as conclusive. So maybe stop condescending.

[LarBrd33]

I can't help it if people looked at this thread and thought the question was how they think Jaylen and Gordon will project long term.

Your condescension of everyone's reading skill is duly noted; however, using long term projections to evaluate a hypothetical trade is quite reasonable. Obviously, context also matters, but you don't get to decide that everything is about current ability either.

I don't see the point in looking at long-term projections on this one.  And I suspect if we used long-term projections to look at Gordon vs Brown, Gordon would win that debate as well.  He was drafted because he was thought to have star potential.  It's hard to deny he's shown improvement.  There's plenty of articles out there about how Gordon is on the verge of NBA stardom:  http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcats/basketball/stanley-johnson-aaron-gordon-on-verge-of-nba-stardom/article_1b738cf8-bd8a-5eea-b469-ffb384547f24.html

So if people want to move to goal posts and pretend this isn't about Brown vs Gordon right now, fine.  I see that nobody has offered anything of substance to back the idea that Brown is better than Gordon right now.  So we can put that to rest.  Gordon is better than Brown right now.   

So if we're asking about how 25 year old Gordon will look compared to 24 year old Jaylen Brown, we'll have to wait 5 years to see for certain.   I have hope that Brown will go through a lot of development on this strong Celtics team.   I have zero expectations that Brown will outperform Gordon next year.   I also have no reason to believe Gordon is done improving.  Neither of these guys were drafted for what they could do as rookies.  Both were seen as raw prospects with hopes for bright futures.  Nobody can definitively say which one of these guys will be better 5 years from now.  I really can't see the rationalization in Orlando dumping Gordon for Brown on a whim that Brown (who has yet to play an NBA game) will improve more dramatically than Gordon already is.  That makes no sense to me. 

So my answer to the question remains.   Does this trade make sense for both Boston and Orlando?  No.  It makes no sense for Orlando.

[LarBrd33]

Those stats are from Wiggins two years ago as a rookie ... in which he was clearly better than Aaron Gordon as a rookie... and has exactly jack squat to do with how Jaylen Brown played in Summer league this year compared to how Aaron Gordon played in Summer league last year... and whether or not Jaylen is anywhere near as good as Aaron Gordon heading into year 3. 

One could argue that Jaylen Brown was better as a 19 year old in Summer league than Gordon was as an 18 year old in Summer league.  But I fail to see how that proves Aaron Gordon as a 20 year old heading into his 3rd season is worse than Jaylen Brown as a 19 year old rookie.    Gordon is better right now.  Trading Gordon for Brown would make no sense for Orlando.   What we are seeing here is a bunch of histrionics from folks who are not addressing the key point of this thread.  Would trading Gordon for Brown make sense for Orlando?  No.

You're defining the argument to suit your needs.

I'm really not.  Most people here don't understand what this thread is about.  Not my fault.  Read it again.

Would Orlando trade Gordon for Brown?  Of course not.

I agree with your conclusion. I don't think they would do the deal. But I for one perfectly understand the premise of the thread and don't accept your argument as conclusive. So maybe stop condescending.

My apologies.  TP. 

I get very emotional when I make a valid point and instead of giving me evidence to the contrary, Huey, Dewey and Louie turn it into a tree biscuit duck wagoning.

[crimson_stallion]

Yet I can't tell you how many times I've heard the pundits talking about Simmons absolutely dominating the summer league. It's ridiculous. He definitely looked excellent passing, but he was pretty mediocre elsewhere.

He certainly was not 'dominant', though there is no denying that he was extremely impressive.  You can't argue with Per-36 numbers of 15.2 Points, 12.2 Rebounds and 7.6 Assists.  That's crazy - a hell of a lot more impressive then what Okafor and KAT averaged in their summer league debuts, with the only disappointing part being his shooting really.  When Simmons works out how to finish in this league he's going to be a monster.

By comparison, here are the Per-36 numbers of the rest of the top 8 players:

- Ingram: 16.0 Pts, 5.5 Reb,  2.4 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 0.5 Blk
- Brown: 19.8 Pts, 7.6 Reb, 1.6 Ast, 2.9 Stl, 1 Blk
- Bender: 9.7 Pts, 6.3 Reb, 1.1 Ast, 1.1 Stl, 1.1 Blk
- Dunn: 25.5 Pts, 7.4 Reb, 2.9 Ast, 2.1 Stl, 1.0 Blk
- Hield: 19.0 Pts, 6.1 Reb, 4.3 Ast, 0.9 Stl, 0.2 Blk
- Murray: 23.9 Pts, 6.1 Reb, 4.3 Ast, 0.9 Stl, 0.2 Blk
- Chriss: 11.9 Pts, 10.7 Reb, 0.3 Ast, 0.3 Stl, 0.8 Blk

I think it's pretty clear that Simmons and Dunn had the best overall numbers out of the top 8, followed by Murray, Brown and Hield. 

The others were all 'unspectacular' to say the least.

Thanks for summing it up.

19 year old Gordon per-36:  23.9 points, 12.8 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.8 blocks, 1.4 steals - 50% FG, 50% 3P

19 year old Brown per-36:  19.8 points, 7.6 reounds, 1.6 assists, 1 block, 2.9 steals  32% FG, 22% 3P

So yeah, I agree with you.  Brown shows signs.  Gordon was better than him a year ago.

19 year old Gordon per-36:  23.9 points, 12.8 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.8 blocks, 1.4 steals - 50% FG, 50% 3P

18 year old Wiggins per-36: 15.5 points, 3.5 reb, 0.25 assists, 1.5 blocks, 1.25 steals - 40% FG, 15% 3PT

Was Gordon better then Wiggins a year ago?  Let me help you with that - the answer is no.  Wiggins led all rookies in scoring and won the ROY award, and nobody else came close.

But you may foolishly believe Gordon was better if you went off nothing but those Summer League stats.

Those stats are from Wiggins two years ago as a rookie ... in which he was clearly better than Aaron Gordon as a rookie... and has exactly jack squat to do with how Jaylen Brown played in Summer league this year compared to how Aaron Gordon played in Summer league last year... and whether or not Jaylen is anywhere near as good as Aaron Gordon heading into year 3.

Let me get this straight...

18 year old Andrew Wiggins' Per-36 numbers as a rookie:
18.6 points, 4.2 rebounds, 0.3 assists, 1.5 steals, 1.8 blocks, 40.5% FG, 15.4% 3PT

19 year old Jaylen Brown's Per-36 numbers as a rookie:
19.8 points, 7.6 reounds, 1.6 assists, 2.9 steals, 1 block, 32% FG, 22% 3PT

19 year old Aaron Gordon's Per-36 numbers as a 2nd year pro:
23.9 points, 12.8 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.4 steals, 1.8 blocks - 50% FG, 50% 3PT


So if you go based on Summer League stats (as you have been), then:
1) Jaylen Brown as a rookie was better then Andrew Wiggins as a rookie
2) Aaron Gordon as a second year player is better then Jaylen Brown as a rookie

Yet it is already a foregone conclusion (which you even agreed with) that Andrew Wiggins as a rookie was better then Aaron Gordon was as a second year player.

You know what they call that?  A complete contradiction of basic logic.

If B > A and C > B, then C > A.  Simple mathematical logic.

You have two possible arguments here:

Argument 1: Summer League stats are an indication of how good a player will be as a pro
If this is your argument, then Aaron Gordon today is better then Jaylen Brown today.  However if this is your argument then it also means that Aaron Gordon today is better then Andrew Wiggins was as a rookie. We've already determined that is false, therefore your argument is invalid.

Argument 2: Summer League stats are not an indication of how good a player will be as a pro
If this is your argument, then you shouldn't have referenced Aaron Gordon's summer league stats to begin with - so your argument is invalid.

I hope you can understand that no matter which direction you take at this point, your argument at this point is well and truly invalid.  It contradicts itself.  It is, effectively, a paradox.

If you believe that Gordon is a better NBA player right now then Jaylen Brown, then that's fine.  That is a perfectly fair argument to make, and it may well be right.  But it is ultimately your opinion, not a fact, because until Brown has an NBA season under his belt (or at the very least, half of one) there is no valid evidence to support that.  So if you wish to insist that Gordon is, factually, a better player then Brown right now - then I suggest you dig deep and find a more compelling argument then simple summer league stats.

Not meaning to be rude, just stating the obvious - or at least what seems (to me) to be the obvious.

[LarBrd33]

Crimson.   I think we can both agree that Aaron Gordon is a better player than Jaylen Brown right now.  We can leave it at that.

If you want to start a separate thread/discussion about Jaylen Brown vs Andrew Wiggins, I'm supportive of it.  It would make for a fun conversation.   Wiggins was thought to have superstar potential.  He struggled out of the gate.  He wasn't very good in Summer league.  He wasn't very good in pre-season.  He wasn't very good in his first few games.  His first month was mediocre.  His second month he was a little bit better.  His third month, things started to click for him.   He's continued to show improvement. 

On the flip side, the consensus is that Jaylen Brown projects somewhere between high-quality rotation player and future starter.   Myself and most of Celtic nation has high hopes that he will develop into something more substantial.  Like Wiggins, he struggled in his first Summer League.  We have yet to see him in preseason.  We have yet to see him play an NBA game.  We don't know how he will look in month 1 or 2.   I'd be very very happy if he made a leap in his 3rd month.   Are you expecting it?   That would be pretty cool.   

You could share some data about Wiggins in high school vs Brown in high school.  You could talk about how both were semi disappointing as College players.  I'm sure the fanbase would get excited about the possibility that Brown follows a similar trajectory to Wiggins.   

Would the thread be enough to get Orlando to trade Aaron Gordon for Jaylen Brown?  No.

[chambers]

Crimson.   I think we can both agree that Aaron Gordon is a better player than Jaylen Brown right now.  We can leave it at that.

If you want to start a separate thread/discussion about Jaylen Brown vs Andrew Wiggins, I'm supportive of it.  It would make for a fun conversation.   Wiggins was thought to have superstar potential.  He struggled out of the gate.  He wasn't very good in Summer league.  He wasn't very good in pre-season.  He wasn't very good in his first few games.  His first month was mediocre.  His second month he was a little bit better.  His third month, things started to click for him.   He's continued to show improvement. 

On the flip side, the consensus is that Jaylen Brown projects somewhere between high-quality rotation player and future starter.   Myself and most of Celtic nation has high hopes that he will develop into something more substantial.  Like Wiggins, he struggled in his first Summer League.  We have yet to see him in preseason.  We have yet to see him play an NBA game.  We don't know how he will look in month 1 or 2.   I'd be very very happy if he made a leap in his 3rd month.   Are you expecting it?   That would be pretty cool.   

You could share some data about Wiggins in high school vs Brown in high school.  You could talk about how both were semi disappointing as College players.  I'm sure the fanbase would get excited about the possibility that Brown follows a similar trajectory to Wiggins.   

Would the thread be enough to get Orlando to trade Aaron Gordon for Jaylen Brown?  No.

There's not really much to suggest they wouldn't trade Gordon for Brown.
It's your opinion and that's it.

Are there GM's that would trade Gordon for Brown if they were the GM of Orlando? Yes.
Would Rob Hennigan? Possibly.
But we don't know.

This argument is based entirely on opinion.

[crimson_stallion]

I don't see the point in looking at long-term projections on this one.  And I suspect if we used long-term projections to look at Gordon vs Brown, Gordon would win that debate as well.  He was drafted because he was thought to have star potential.  It's hard to deny he's shown improvement.  There's plenty of articles out there about how Gordon is on the verge of NBA stardom:  http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcats/basketball/stanley-johnson-aaron-gordon-on-verge-of-nba-stardom/article_1b738cf8-bd8a-5eea-b469-ffb384547f24.html

Just for the record, there were a lot of people who felt Gordon had star potential.  There were also many people who projected he looked like a bust.

The same is true of Brown - a LOT of people (seemingly MOST people) out there felt Brown had star potential, but also recognized that he was very raw and could be a bust.

Both guys were sold mainly on their youth, athleticism, intangibles and defensive upside.  Both were considered very raw players offensively who were poor shooters and who were high risk for that reason.

Both were projected to go somewhere between #3 and #6 depending on which mock draft you looked at.  Gordon was drafted 4th overall, Brown was drafted 3rd overall.

I'm not sure why you are having so much trouble seeing the parallel lines here - the two are extremely similar prospects.  About as similar as it gets, with their physical attributes being about the only things significantly different about them.

So if people want to move to goal posts and pretend this isn't about Brown vs Gordon right now, fine.  I see that nobody has offered anything of substance to back the idea that Brown is better than Gordon right now.  So we can put that to rest.  Gordon is better than Brown right now.   

You say that as if it's a known thing - it's not.  You are making an assumption.  Your assumption may well be true, but it's still an assumption. 

All we have to go off right now with Jaylen Brown is his Summer League performance, which was pretty strong but not spectacular. 

I've already pointed out a couple of recent prospects who underwhelmed in the Summer League their rookie years - Andrew Wiggins and Karl Anthony Towns - who then went on to be (by far) the best rookies in their draft class.  I am confident that there is not a single GM in this league who would take current day Aaron Gordon over rookie Wiggins/Towns.

Therefore, you really cannot say that Gordon in his current form is better then Jaylen Brown as a rookie.  Why?  Because we haven't seen Brown play on an NBA court, again NBA competition.  He may well put up BETTER Per-36 numbers in the NBA then he did in Summer League.  That was the case for Wiggins, Towns and Jahlil Okafor. 

Again, until we see him play, we don't know. 

Am I trying to say Brown is better then Gordon?  No, for the same reason - because we do not know.

So if we're asking about how 25 year old Gordon will look compared to 24 year old Jaylen Brown, we'll have to wait 5 years to see for certain.   I have hope that Brown will go through a lot of development on this strong Celtics team.   I have zero expectations that Brown will outperform Gordon next year.   I also have no reason to believe Gordon is done improving.  Nobody can definitively say which one of these guys will be better 5 years from now.  I really can't see the rationalization in Orlando dumping Gordon for Brown on a whim that Brown (who has yet to play an NBA game) will improve more dramatically than Gordon already is.  That makes no sense to me. 

So my answer to the question remains.   Does this trade make sense for both Boston and Orlando?  No.  It makes no sense for Orlando.

It makes no sense to you because you are absolutely 150% fixated on the 'fact' that Aaron Gordon is a far better player right now then Jaylen Brown, and 150% fixated on the fact that Aaron Gordon has as (if not more) upside.

Orlando may not share your thoughts. 

Orlando may feel that the addition of Serge Ibaka at the PF spot makes Aaron Gordon somewhat redundant - and they may feel that Jaylen Brown is a better fit at the SF spot then Gordon.

Orlando may feel that Jaylen Brown has significantly higher upside then Aaron Gordon - given that Orlando is not in a position to contend anytime soon, they may value that perceived higher upside of Brown more then the perceived higher floor of Gordon.     

Boston are in the opposite position - they are looking to win now, so they may be willing to give up the perceived higher upside of a (seemingly) raw prospect like Brown, for the perceived higher floor of a more proven commodity like Gordon.

You close by saying this trade makes no sense to Orlando.  What you really mean is that the trade makes no sense to you - because you cannot possibly know what Orlando would think of such a trade unless you are the GM or owner of the Orlando Magic.  In fact, the trade may indeed make sense for both parties.

Personally, I wouldn't do it.  But that's just my personal judgment on the matter.

[crimson_stallion]

Crimson.   I think we can both agree that Aaron Gordon is a better player than Jaylen Brown right now.  We can leave it at that.

No, we cannot. 

Please do not assume you know what I am thinking - clearly you do not.  Nobody on this planet can say that Aaron Gordon is a better player then Jaylen Brown - they can only state their opinion that they BELIEVE this to be true. 

There is no right answer to that due to a complete lack of evidence.  When Brown's NBA rookie season is over, then we can make such claims.  Until then, we cannot.

If you want to start a separate thread/discussion about Jaylen Brown vs Andrew Wiggins, I'm supportive of it.  It would make for a fun conversation.   Wiggins was thought to have superstar potential.  He struggled out of the gate.  He wasn't very good in Summer league.  He wasn't very good in pre-season.  He wasn't very good in his first few games.  His first month was mediocre.  His second month he was a little bit better.  His third month, things started to click for him.   He's continued to show improvement. 

On the flip side, the consensus is that Jaylen Brown projects somewhere between high-quality rotation player and future starter.   Myself and most of Celtic nation has high hopes that he will develop into something more substantial.  Like Wiggins, he struggled in his first Summer League.  We have yet to see him in preseason.  We have yet to see him play an NBA game.  We don't know how he will look in month 1 or 2.   I'd be very very happy if he made a leap in his 3rd month.   Are you expecting it?   That would be pretty cool.   

I have no idea where you are getting your draft information from. 

Most of the mock drafts I looked at seemed to have Jaylen Brown pegged as a guy with huge upside and legitimate star potential. 

There have been many question marks about Brown's floor (and the risk of him being a bust), but if there is one thing I haven't heard much of it's question marks about his upside.  It seems to have been a pretty universal theme throughout the past 6 months that Jaylen Brown had one of the highest ceilings of any prospect in the draft. 

Most looked at him as a high risk / high upside prospect.   I have no clue where you get your "high quality rotation player / future starter" consensus from.  That's not in line with what most of the scouts were saying, and I would hazard a guess that you have probably pulled that out of your own imagination. 

[byennie]

Those stats are from Wiggins two years ago as a rookie ... in which he was clearly better than Aaron Gordon as a rookie... and has exactly jack squat to do with how Jaylen Brown played in Summer league this year compared to how Aaron Gordon played in Summer league last year... and whether or not Jaylen is anywhere near as good as Aaron Gordon heading into year 3. 

One could argue that Jaylen Brown was better as a 19 year old in Summer league than Gordon was as an 18 year old in Summer league.  But I fail to see how that proves Aaron Gordon as a 20 year old heading into his 3rd season is worse than Jaylen Brown as a 19 year old rookie.    Gordon is better right now.  Trading Gordon for Brown would make no sense for Orlando.   What we are seeing here is a bunch of histrionics from folks who are not addressing the key point of this thread.  Would trading Gordon for Brown make sense for Orlando?  No.

You're defining the argument to suit your needs.

I'm really not.  Most people here don't understand what this thread is about.  Not my fault.  Read it again.

Would Orlando trade Gordon for Brown?  Of course not.

I agree with your conclusion. I don't think they would do the deal. But I for one perfectly understand the premise of the thread and don't accept your argument as conclusive. So maybe stop condescending.

My apologies.  TP. 

I get very emotional when I make a valid point and instead of giving me evidence to the contrary, Huey, Dewey and Louie turn it into a tree biscuit duck wagoning.

I appreciate it, but I wasn't just speaking for myself.

I mean this constructively, but this really feels like an important admission if you can reflect on it. You aren't functioning emotionally when people don't acknowledge your correctness or make the counterargument you consider to be correct. It's too rigid if you want to function well in a public forum, or with people that aren't extremely close to your own personality.

You're a very smart, possibly brilliant guy. Don't make it a zero-sum game and look down on everyone else. You will be amazed how much more others appreciate you, and how much you end up appreciating them when you're a little more flexible. I don't think a lot of people around here understand you, but you also don't understand them.

FWIW, late night ramblings.