Author Topic: What to Do with Evan Fournier?  (Read 5771 times)

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Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2021, 01:32:43 PM »

Offline tonydelk

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I've been saying this for a while.  You have to let Evan walk.  He does not move the needle and he hinders our flexibility next year.  This upcoming years is about developing Langford, Nesmith, Seeing if Timelord can Stay health and Letting The J's take another leap.  Can't resign smart.  Can only do 1 yr deals.  Hopefully Thompson is traded for a vet to fill the bench scoring role that Fournier would fill.

Now on the other hand if the C's resign smart now you might as well resign Fournier because you will not have any ability to sign a max FA next year.  That team is not winning a championship so I doubt you see this happen.

If the C's can work the cap and sign a guy like Beal then the only way Smart can stay is if he signs a 1 year cheap deal so the C's can retain his bird rights and sign him to a large contract the following year.  I doubt Smart would do this.

Ideally, and cap experts please correct me if I am wrong, is for the C's to sign and trade Fournier to get a large TPE.  I don't know if both teams in the S&T are hard capped or just the team receiving the player.  Keep Smart because the C's really need a PG for next year.  Trade Thompson to a team trying to win a championship like the Lakers for a player and a 1st.  Needs assets incase it's possible to make a midseason trade for Beal.  Make sure the player coming back is on a 1 yr contract.

Next year smart walks and the C's sign Beal and pending on Timelord either resign him if he stays healthy or deal him for a 1st.  Then with the TPE's fill out the roster.

Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2021, 02:09:52 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Interesting to see so many wanting to put all our eggs in the free agency basket by clearing the decks. That's a gamble that makes no sense.

First, the big names - Jokic and Embid - are not guaranteed to even hit free agency. I believe both will be supermax eligible and if they're offered those deals and they don't sign, they'll probably be traded. We're a team with very little tradeable salary and low on assets. Makes more sense to resign Fournier at the very least to potentially be a salary match in a trade. Same with extending Marcus. Otherwise, we can end up in 22/23 free agency with a market full of tier 2/below talent, and we've punted another season of the Jays to do so.

And if the 22/23 free agency remains strong and a player really wants to come here as a free agent, a sign and trade is a viable option.
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C: Kristaps Porzingis/Bobby Portis/James Wiseman

Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2021, 02:29:52 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Interesting to see so many wanting to put all our eggs in the free agency basket by clearing the decks. That's a gamble that makes no sense.

First, the big names - Jokic and Embid - are not guaranteed to even hit free agency. I believe both will be supermax eligible and if they're offered those deals and they don't sign, they'll probably be traded. We're a team with very little tradeable salary and low on assets. Makes more sense to resign Fournier at the very least to potentially be a salary match in a trade. Same with extending Marcus. Otherwise, we can end up in 22/23 free agency with a market full of tier 2/below talent, and we've punted another season of the Jays to do so.

And if the 22/23 free agency remains strong and a player really wants to come here as a free agent, a sign and trade is a viable option.
Ask the Pacers and Nets on their opinion on relying on S&T.
It's better to be able to sign Beal out right and leverage a move. If you need a S&T it's more a doomed scenario.

Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2021, 02:38:52 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Interesting to see so many wanting to put all our eggs in the free agency basket by clearing the decks. That's a gamble that makes no sense.

First, the big names - Jokic and Embid - are not guaranteed to even hit free agency. I believe both will be supermax eligible and if they're offered those deals and they don't sign, they'll probably be traded. We're a team with very little tradeable salary and low on assets. Makes more sense to resign Fournier at the very least to potentially be a salary match in a trade. Same with extending Marcus. Otherwise, we can end up in 22/23 free agency with a market full of tier 2/below talent, and we've punted another season of the Jays to do so.

And if the 22/23 free agency remains strong and a player really wants to come here as a free agent, a sign and trade is a viable option.
Ask the Pacers and Nets on their opinion on relying on S&T.
It's better to be able to sign Beal out right and leverage a move. If you need a S&T it's more a doomed scenario.

Could also ask the Heat. That's how they acquired Jimmy Butler - a max player - by trading Josh Richardson. Nets also technically got Kevin Durant - a max player - by sign and trade via moving D'Angelo Russell. Our last max guy, Kemba Walker, was a sign and trade for Terry Rozier. If a max player is motivated and wants to go somewhere, it usually gets done.

It's a far more viable option than most are willing to consider. Most GM's are willing to play ball instead of losing franchise guys for nothing. That also extends to role players. You can't just let guys like Fournier and Smart walk for nothing. Those losses compound and you'll find yourself depleted of talent really quickly. See: Celtics, Boston.
2021 Houston Rockets
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C: Kristaps Porzingis/Bobby Portis/James Wiseman

Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2021, 02:39:06 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I agree that the things that would have to happen in order for us to sign a top FA in 2022 or 2023 are mostly unrealistic.  It seems that one scenario is that Beal will opt out from his final year and be an UFA in 2022 for the 2022-23 season.  The option is over $37M so you assume his contract is going to be higher, maybe even $45M.  If we "clear the decks" so to speak, we will have about $20M in cap space so not even close.

In 2023 (for the 2023-24 season) if we only sign one year contracts and don't pick up any options on any current rookie contracts, we could in theory have only Tatum and Brown on the books.  Then if we take on a $45M max contract, all we could do is work with the MLE and min contracts (assuming we retain some rookies/draft picks).  This just makes no sense to me even if it was more realistic.

I feel it is more realistic to bring in talent via sign and trade than just sign.  Fournier and some of our young players would be useful for this.  And I don't think we need to bring is an uber-star.  We can build around Tatum and Brown.  If you don't think Brown and Tatum are going to be the guys, better to trade one or both of them, say Brown for Beal or Towns or something like that.  Or use Tatum to try and get Lillard if you like him.  Chasing Jokic or Embiid does not seem realistic.  We can't offer them the most money.

The only realistic choices in my view are build around Brown and Tatum or trade one or both for Beal, Towns, Lillard.  I don't feel the latter makes us any better (although I agree with C Maxwell that I would trade Brown for Towns).

Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2021, 03:25:43 PM »

Offline Rikibellevie

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Interesting to see so many wanting to put all our eggs in the free agency basket by clearing the decks. That's a gamble that makes no sense.


I don't think so. First because I think Beal in Boston next year is the wish of the player. Would he accept to sign some millions under the Max? I don't know. But if Beal is a done deal in the words given, then our goal is to optimise our team around him. For Embid or Jokic it is more about the long shot. 

Signing him just hoping to make a future deal with his contract is not only not fair, bad for our image, but very unprobable. Fournier knows it is the time to cash in. He knows he isn't our prority for future.  He won't give us a cent of discount on my opinion. And will he have a real value in à trade? Maybe for a mid pack team who need some scoring. A contending team don't trade value for an OK to good 6thmen payed 20+M . Even with a brunch of our low 1st pick it wouldn't bring any superstar trade even ending.

Smart and healthy Timelord fit better with the future and we have to hope some of Nesmith/Pritchard/Langford/Brown progress.

Our best chance for me is preparing the 2022 turnover. So clear the cap and keep the best cheap options.

For Jokic or Embid it is a bad gamble you are right until they make clear they wish to play with the Jays.


Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2021, 03:30:51 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Baring the fact I Would love to support a french in our futur sucess, I don't think we will extend him. He is a very good player for scoring with regulatity-in regular- and a good teamplayer. A perfect professional. Also a professional who build his carreer in an individual and But mercantil perspective. He won't discount for a team he played 3 month for. Smart could do that. And he isn't enough athletic or have enough volume or intensity.  He won't find enough the Way to the basket in the PO where he may not be more than a rotational shooter with a production depending only about his %... Defensively he is individualy below average for a W or for a G. Still smart colectively. He is the kind of player who can be usefull to an average offensive team, scoring à lot for them. That's kind of player who get s paid.It is his big contract.

We want to be more than a team that overpay a good 6men or so. And Fournier isn't the post of our needs. Our futur at PG and C is unclear. We may wait to give this money to Timelord and hopefully to Smart next summer. I trust Smart better to complete a team of BEAL-BROWN-TATUM-HORFORD. Or in a dream scenario in 1half or 2 years a big 3 with Jokic or Embid... And we must develop Langford and Nesmith who will have a role to complement our future big3....

So the 2/3 Hayward TPE has been lost for nothing. Easy to say but it was time to move on last year TD when we had a chance. With the full Hayward TPE we could have overpay Lowry for 1 or 1+1Y giving maybe the 14th to Toronto. Don't like the last Danny move and for now neither that much CBS first one. Would be intrigued if we resign Evan.

Fun fact, Fournier's contract wouldn't impede us from extending Timelord and Smart. If you're thinking of a future in which Beal is here or Jokic or Embiid, Smart won't be part of the equation unless they're traded for... and guess what you need to do to make a trade happen? Assets and players who can be traded, so that's where Fournier would come in (or someone else and we keep Fournier).

But if you're saving money in order to sign Beal, Jokic or Embiid, which are all in the end longshots, Smart, et al. won't be part of the team... we won't have the cap space for it. At least not with Beal, haven't crunched the numbers for the 2023 free-agency... in the meantime if you don't put competent teams together, you're wasting Brown's and Tatum's time, and they're going to bolt not long after.

Some food for thought.


Yes I didn't realized Smart is UFA next year. But, stop me if I am wrong, but if we cut Grant and Edwards (or even Langford) and find à team to absorb Horfords contract before 2022 FA, we only have 68 M garenty. That give us 45M to sign Beal (like a friendly 4Y/130 begening at 30) and Smart (4Y/70 b at 15) then extend Timelord with BR if healthy. Complete with quality vet min MLE and maybe à ST with Fournier TPE. I think there is a path to have Beal and Smart.

And it isn't a good sign a player in the idea to trade him. Waiting a discount from him is absurd for me and an overpayed contract, which he could look in being our mid pack level team 6th, isn't a good chip.

Let's work with some numbers, and keep in mind that we're working with 2022-2023 projections. Let's also keep in mind that our 1st round rookie contracts become guaranteed this October if we pick-up their team options, and I would think we will for most if not of them... so that's a lot of potential players that need to get dumped. So let's work some scenarios.

Assuming a $115.7M salary cap and somewhere around $40.5M in max salary:

1. Keep Tatum and Brown on salary, that means renouncing rights to all our free-agents, draft picks, TPE's and cap exceptions, and successful dump of others (we don't know what that will cost us): $48 million cap available. So in this scenario it seems we have room to give the max salary and keep Langford and Nesmith.

2. Similar scenario, but we can't dump Horford, so we cut him before it becomes guaranteed: $34.7M we can offer Beal. We already talking about Beal accepting a paycut and a more depleted roster.

3. We keep Horford, dump everyone else: yeah, I don't think that's going to work.

4. We successfully dump Horford, what does it give us? About $29.7M, so we're talking about a further pay cut but retaining some of our end of bench players (no Smart/Fournier, etc.)... basically our developing players. We dump Grant and Edwards, we have about $34M to offer and so on. This number is further complicated because we have Robert Williams restricted free-agency, which complicates how much of a cap-hold he may represent. So it's probably about $4 million less cap space than the figures mentioned, or write him off entirely if he signs an offer sheet because that probably put us quite a bit off the money and I think he could potentially get paid quite a bit. Beal would still have to be willing to accept a pay cut... and no rookies and exceptions.

So as you can see, either we successfully deplete our roster completely to be able to offer max money or we'll have to assume that Beal can only be brought if he accepts a pay cut in most scenarios.

I'm not sure if bringing Beal is worth all that honestly. Could be that I'm not as high on Beal as some others, but I don't think Beal + Tatum + Brown and an incomplete roster helps us all that much than the alternative. We'll see.

Edit: In the 4th scenario, using Robert's potential cap hold of $10,985,928 would change the figures to $24.2M and $28.5M respectively for both figures used above. So, quite a bit of a pay cut with Robert still around and without factoring an offer sheet.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 03:48:58 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2021, 03:36:48 PM »

Offline bogg

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Rob's RFA cap hold is about $11 million, for the record.

Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2021, 03:39:46 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Rob's RFA cap hold is about $11 million, for the record.

For the moment I have it as his QO for easy numbers, but yeah I figure it's about $10,985,928 in reality. Just couldn't find the exact rule that would apply for his cap hold.

Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2021, 03:43:20 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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If Beal, or any other major free agent, is to come here and he wants to compete right away, the only scenario that makes sense is for Beal, that other free agent, to ask for a trade to Boston at next year's deadline. Fournier can be re-signed and used as a salary and talent going to Washington, or wherever, in return. Beal gets here, he teams with The Jays and by demanding the trade, Beal allows his new team, the Celtics, to retain important parts of a championship caliber team like Smart, Pritchard, Horford, Timelord and maybe one of either Nesmith or Langford.

Clearing the decks to have only a couple young guys, Brown, Tatum and Beal on the roster and having to fill the rest of the roster with vet mins means needing to sacrifice a year or two for Stevens to build up the supporting cast for that trio. Better to have Beal force his way here via trade while retaining a viable supporting cast so the team can compete for a title right away.

Otherwise, move in a different direction.

Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2021, 04:23:00 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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This is a Fournier thread so, I'll refrain from more on Beal beyond, is Beal the Celtics "future target."

J's + Beal = big three?

I don't get invited to the meetings, but, I don't think so.

A team needs size. It is part of the game. One of the "big three" is a frontcourt guy. Maybe he isn't, but history says he is. The basket is ten feet high and a big often wins underneath when up against a small.

Anyway, I don't like Fournier's game. He's got no push. Look at Brown, he can guard anybody and frankly do about as well as anybody.

I agree with the posters who want the young guys to get minutes this coming season.

Langford
Nesmith
Pritchard and whomever.

They are either good trade chips when mixed with vet salaries (perhaps Fournier) or, they get to be the "cheap players" who make three max salaries possible.

Stevens hurt the team by not playing the young guys and Fournier's minutes can go to the young guys right now, if he walks or after the next deadline when he is traded. He is not playoff material.

I'm sorry Hayward walked, it was his option to do so, stuff happens to all NBA teams.

"Hey superstar? You want to play with the J's?"

I think we are one year away from that shtick and if Nesmith, Pritchard and etc are only going to get small minutes we are devaluing our future bench and our future trade chips.

Thus "Fournier is salary" for a trade in 2023? Ok, I'm game.

"Skip Fournier, give the minutes to the young players." I don't know if that is financially feasible.

Regardless, the Bucks are pushing the Suns around
 because they are bigger. I want the Celtics to be bigger and Fournier is none of that.
 






Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2021, 04:27:12 PM »

Offline Celtics2021

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If Beal, or any other major free agent, is to come here and he wants to compete right away, the only scenario that makes sense is for Beal, that other free agent, to ask for a trade to Boston at next year's deadline. Fournier can be re-signed and used as a salary and talent going to Washington, or wherever, in return. Beal gets here, he teams with The Jays and by demanding the trade, Beal allows his new team, the Celtics, to retain important parts of a championship caliber team like Smart, Pritchard, Horford, Timelord and maybe one of either Nesmith or Langford.

Clearing the decks to have only a couple young guys, Brown, Tatum and Beal on the roster and having to fill the rest of the roster with vet mins means needing to sacrifice a year or two for Stevens to build up the supporting cast for that trio. Better to have Beal force his way here via trade while retaining a viable supporting cast so the team can compete for a title right away.

Otherwise, move in a different direction.

I would think it makes at least as much sense for Beal to wait for free agency.  If Beal wants to go to a team without cap space, the Wizards aren't going to turn down a sign-and-trade opportunity that will help them rebuild/retool.  It allows Beal to consider all of his options and at the same time avoid taking a PR hit by forcing his way to a team.

In either case, Fournier isn't likely getting in the way of Beal.  The risk of signing Fournier is that we overpay him because he has more leverage -- he can sign with many teams, but he's the only free agent we can sign to a large deal because of his Bird rights -- but that is a risk that exists with or without future cap space and trades under consideration.  If we don't grossly overpay, I think he's a player the Wizards would be interested in receiving in return.  That franchise has a goal of making the playoffs every year, but does not ever have a championship goal, and Fournier could be a reasonable replacement for Beal, plus whatever else we send along.  And if we do grossly overpay for Fournier, we can still move him, but it just requires more non-Fournier compensation.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 04:33:14 PM by Celtics2021 »

Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2021, 04:34:41 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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If Beal, or any other major free agent, is to come here and he wants to compete right away, the only scenario that makes sense is for Beal, that other free agent, to ask for a trade to Boston at next year's deadline. Fournier can be re-signed and used as a salary and talent going to Washington, or wherever, in return. Beal gets here, he teams with The Jays and by demanding the trade, Beal allows his new team, the Celtics, to retain important parts of a championship caliber team like Smart, Pritchard, Horford, Timelord and maybe one of either Nesmith or Langford.

Clearing the decks to have only a couple young guys, Brown, Tatum and Beal on the roster and having to fill the rest of the roster with vet mins means needing to sacrifice a year or two for Stevens to build up the supporting cast for that trio. Better to have Beal force his way here via trade while retaining a viable supporting cast so the team can compete for a title right away.

Otherwise, move in a different direction.

I would think it makes at least as much sense for Beal to wait for free agency.  If Beal wants to go to a team without cap space, the Wizards aren't going to turn down a sign-and-trade opportunity that will help them rebuild/retool.  It allows Beal to consider all of his options and at the same time avoid taking a PR hit by forcing his way to a team.

In either case, Fournier isn't likely getting in the way of Beal.  The risk of signing Fournier is that we overpay him because he has more leverage -- he can sign with many teams, but he's the only free agent we can sign to a large deal because of his Bird rights -- but that is a risk that exists with or without future cap space and trades under consideration.  If we don't grossly overpay, I think he's a player the Wizards would be interested in receiving in return.  That franchise has a goal of making the playoffs every year, but does not ever have a championship goal, and Fournier could be a reasonable replacement for Beal, plus whatever else we send along.  And if we do grossly overpay for Fournier, we can still move him, but it just requires more non-Fournier compensation.

I think Beal can get paid more if he gets traded before and re-signed with the team that traded for him than via S&T... I think. Haven't read much up on those particulars lately, so there's some incentive there for Beal too.

Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2021, 04:44:33 PM »

Offline Celtics2021

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If Beal, or any other major free agent, is to come here and he wants to compete right away, the only scenario that makes sense is for Beal, that other free agent, to ask for a trade to Boston at next year's deadline. Fournier can be re-signed and used as a salary and talent going to Washington, or wherever, in return. Beal gets here, he teams with The Jays and by demanding the trade, Beal allows his new team, the Celtics, to retain important parts of a championship caliber team like Smart, Pritchard, Horford, Timelord and maybe one of either Nesmith or Langford.

Clearing the decks to have only a couple young guys, Brown, Tatum and Beal on the roster and having to fill the rest of the roster with vet mins means needing to sacrifice a year or two for Stevens to build up the supporting cast for that trio. Better to have Beal force his way here via trade while retaining a viable supporting cast so the team can compete for a title right away.

Otherwise, move in a different direction.

I would think it makes at least as much sense for Beal to wait for free agency.  If Beal wants to go to a team without cap space, the Wizards aren't going to turn down a sign-and-trade opportunity that will help them rebuild/retool.  It allows Beal to consider all of his options and at the same time avoid taking a PR hit by forcing his way to a team.

In either case, Fournier isn't likely getting in the way of Beal.  The risk of signing Fournier is that we overpay him because he has more leverage -- he can sign with many teams, but he's the only free agent we can sign to a large deal because of his Bird rights -- but that is a risk that exists with or without future cap space and trades under consideration.  If we don't grossly overpay, I think he's a player the Wizards would be interested in receiving in return.  That franchise has a goal of making the playoffs every year, but does not ever have a championship goal, and Fournier could be a reasonable replacement for Beal, plus whatever else we send along.  And if we do grossly overpay for Fournier, we can still move him, but it just requires more non-Fournier compensation.

I think Beal can get paid more if he gets traded before and re-signed with the team that traded for him than via S&T... I think. Haven't read much up on those particulars lately, so there's some incentive there for Beal too.

This is true.  He can get an extra year and bigger raises, which is I guess the route that Anthony Davis took (although he demanded his trade 1.5 years before FA, so it still isn't an exact parallel).  Still, it seems that players tend to prefer the free agency route, or signing a Bird rights deal with their original team and then moving the following year.  (e.g. Paul George, seemingly Lillard).

Re: What to Do with Evan Fournier?
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2021, 04:47:41 PM »

Offline Diggles

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Sign him....  Great 3rd options on offense.   He can handle the rock and attack better that Brown.   

Smart  / Payton / Waters
Even  /  Langford / Edwards
Brown / Nesmith / ??? Semi
Tatum /  TT /Grant  ?/
AL / Time Lord / Brown
Diggles