Zion's Family Wants him Out of New Orleans

[Who]

How are they bad management? You never actually explained that part. Also I see you crossed out "big markets". Do you think that somehow counters the point? Your vision of the NBA is frankly trash to me, and would probably make me stop watching. Tatum should just force his way out of Boston and call it a day at this point.

I never mentioned anything about big markets in my initial post. Nor did you in your first reply. Then that appeared suddenly out of nowhere.

I did not wish to respond to the big markets point. That is why I crossed it out. To show that I was not speaking to that specific point in the rest of your reply.

Than you are purposely ignoring a huge aspect of what we are talking about. It's like discussing going to the moon and when someone brings up the lack of oxygen, you wave it off as unimportant.

I disagree.

I hate this part of the conversation because far too many people -- both fans and sportswriters -- completely overlook the incompetence and mismanagement that causes star players to leave their teams and put everything down to big market vs small market.

Most players are loyal to teams that are well run.
Most players are disloyal to teams that are badly run.

The whole big market vs small market complaint is just a distraction to hide owner's from the blame of what really has happened -- they hired someone who failed, the owner did not hold them accountable in a timely manner and their star player got fed up and decided to look elsewhere.

Fair enough. That star player should look elsewhere.

So it's just a huge coincident that nearly every example we have is a player forcing themselves out of small market teams onto big market teams?

Too much focus on the end point and not enough focus on the processes that led to that point.

[Kernewek]

I think Who has good points, but I'm not sure that they apply to Williamson and New Orleans (that I can see, at least).


I don't have an Athletic Subscription so hard to comment on the article, but they've had two seasons of being a lottery team with Williamson, who they landed with the first pick in the 2019 draft... because they were a lottery team. It's pretty hard to surround a rookie with enough talent to make the playoffs in his first two seasons (the Davis trade could have been more fortuitous, I suppose), and hoping that the team would do more than that at best in the short term doesn't seem to be particularly tethered to reality.

[footey]

What’s incompetent about David Griffin?

(1) Steven Adams -- putting a paint only big man next to your superstar interior PF who needs a clear paint to maximize his skill-set.

(2) Trading Jrue = Having the makings of a 45-50 win team that could easily become a 50+ team either through minor changes or internal development (Zion, Ingram, Ball) ... and deciding that is better to destroy that team and lose intentionally for longer team (possible) gains. Selling out Zion's short term ambitions.

(3) Putting Bledsoe a dodgy shooting PG next to your paint only center, interior based PF and dodgy shooting Lonzo Ball. Destroying your team's capacity to have any semblance of an offense due to not just inferior but outright pathetic spacing.


(4) I really cannot get over the sheer lack of ambition David Griffin has & the sheer lack of faith / confidence David Griffin has in his young stars (Zion, Ingram). He has two of the finest young players in the league - already on his team! They are already All-Stars (or at least clearly on the path to it last summer).

This isn't a team that is starting over from scratch and entering a 3-5 year rebuilding stage. This is a team that needs to start moving forwards. Build something. Win. His decision making and willingness to sacrifice the present for the future was unnecessary and insulting (to the players and to the fans).

Hiring SVG as coach. Add that to list.

[footey]

Let’s cut to the chase:

Who would Boston be willing to trade for Zion?  Would he be a good fit with Tatum and|or Brown? Doesn’t seem to fit well with Ingram. His defensive liability is an issue too.

[Who]

If I am New Orleans, do I care which team my soon-to-be-former player goes to or do I care that he wants to leave in the first place?

If he wants to leave, why does he want to leave?

Was it something that was in my power to change that outcome or not?

Was it because the team was badly run? Is my fault? Could I have done something to change this but interceding earlier and stopping the player from wanting to leave?

Or does it have nothing to do with me. Does the player just want to leave the city? Does he just want to live somewhere else? Maybe his home-town where his friends and family live. Maybe a warm weather city with a beach. Well, this is something out of my control. Nothing I can do can change this outcome.

So, I am going to spend my time trying to change the outcome of the situations I do have control over which will lead to positive results and better enable me to keep my star players.

Or spend time trying to change outcomes I cannot control which will lead to no changes in the outcome.

-----------

Not every outcome can be avoided but many of them can be.

Some players just want to play somewhere else. Somewhere specific. Fair enough. I can't effect that. I can't force someone to want to live in a city they do not want to live in.

Most players are happy when they are winning. I can effect that. I can build better teams. I can give them reasons to believe that they can achieve their career ambitions here and that they do not need to leave in order to fulfill ambitions elsewhere.

[Who]

What’s incompetent about David Griffin?

(1) Steven Adams -- putting a paint only big man next to your superstar interior PF who needs a clear paint to maximize his skill-set.

(2) Trading Jrue = Having the makings of a 45-50 win team that could easily become a 50+ team either through minor changes or internal development (Zion, Ingram, Ball) ... and deciding that is better to destroy that team and lose intentionally for longer team (possible) gains. Selling out Zion's short term ambitions.

(3) Putting Bledsoe a dodgy shooting PG next to your paint only center, interior based PF and dodgy shooting Lonzo Ball. Destroying your team's capacity to have any semblance of an offense due to not just inferior but outright pathetic spacing.


(4) I really cannot get over the sheer lack of ambition David Griffin has & the sheer lack of faith / confidence David Griffin has in his young stars (Zion, Ingram). He has two of the finest young players in the league - already on his team! They are already All-Stars (or at least clearly on the path to it last summer).

This isn't a team that is starting over from scratch and entering a 3-5 year rebuilding stage. This is a team that needs to start moving forwards. Build something. Win. His decision making and willingness to sacrifice the present for the future was unnecessary and insulting (to the players and to the fans).

Hiring SVG as coach. Add that to list.

Yes. Yes. That too.

[Ed Monix]

If Zion was proactive, he would force his way out now. All the warning signs are there. He has a terrible GM who is running that team and harming Zion's career. Get out now. Don't wait 6-8 years before making the call. Do it now!

Unfortunately, few players are brave enough to withstand the negative fallout from such proactive decisions.

If that does happen, expect there to be massive backlash from team owners in the next CBA negotiations.

There has always been a trade off for having all NBA players contracts fully guaranteed. In return, team owners get to secure a star player for their franchise long term (especially small market). If someone like Zion forced his way out of New Orleans this early, then team owners would push back by wanting to revert to an NFL model of non-guaranteed contracts and being able to just cut players without a buyout.

[Walker Wiggle]

The modern CBA is designed to protect small market teams, especially when it comes to retaining star players. One of the ways it does that is making all drafted players restricted free agents at the end of their rookie deals. This means that when a franchise drafts a superstar, they’ve got that player under team control for potentially the first 7-9 years of their career.

The trend of superstars holding their teams hostage and muscling their way to wherever they want before the end of their contracts has to stop. If anyone manages to do this while still on their rookie deal, that will be an explosive precedent for the league. I’m not entirely sure how a player could do this, other than to threaten to sign their 1-year qualifying offer after their rookie deal and become an unrestricted free agent afterwards, though that would sacrifice a lot of money.

In any case, you should absolutely be terrified of this sort of thing if you’re a Celtics fan and a general fan of league parity.

[Who]

The modern CBA is designed to protect small market teams, especially when it comes to retaining star players. One of the ways it does that is making all drafted players restricted free agents at the end of their rookie deals. This means that when a franchise drafts a superstar, they’ve got that player under team control for potentially the first 7-9 years of their career.

The trend of superstars holding their teams hostage and muscling their way to wherever they want before the end of their contracts has to stop. If anyone manages to do this while still on their rookie deal, that will be an explosive precedent for the league. I’m not entirely sure how a player could do this, other than to threaten to sign their 1-year qualifying offer after their rookie deal and become an unrestricted free agent afterwards, though that would sacrifice a lot of money.

In any case, you should absolutely be terrified of this sort of thing if you’re a Celtics fan and a general fan of league parity.

This is great. This is exactly what I want to talk about.

The league designed the CBA to accomplish this. This was their intention.

Now, what was the outcome?

This is the question we need to ask.

---------------------------------------

The outcome is that the only teams that feel like they can compete are ones that can amass 2-3 superstars on their teams. Why is this?

Because the maximum contract was set artificially low and star players realized they could now team up and play alongside one another. And once that happened, the rest of the team realized that the only way to beat those star tandems was copy them and join forces on another superteam to play against them. That was the only way they could win.

The whole mindset of team building changed. And this led to a lack of parity. A wider gulf between the haves and the have-nots.


The problem is the CBA itself. It had good intentions but failed to achieve the outcomes it desired. The CBA needs to be changed in order to fix this mess that it has caused.


The CBA itself is to blame and I can't say that loudly enough. The CBA created this mess with it's incentive structure. That incentive structure has to change in order to stop these situations from happening.

Get rid of the maximum contract. Keep the cap. Stop stars teaming up with one another. Create better parity.

Forced loyalty is tougher. Loyalty denies player's freedom of movement.

However, just by fixing the maximum contract problem you alter the incentives and create a situation where it is more beneficial to the player to have his own team where he earns $60-70mil a year than team up with someone else for $35mil a year. So you avoid the team ups. But that doesn't mean that same player doesn't choose to leave your team for another team that is also offering him to be the main man and make $60-70mil with them instead.

[greg683x]

Why doesn’t the NBA just eliminate all the small market teams?  Just get rid of them.  Just have the New York’s, the LAs, the Miami’s just play each other every year.  Everybody gets to go to a big market!!!

Then maybe when half the star players in the NBA are turned into role players or just flat out unemployed, maybe some perspective will be learned

[Ogaju]

Let’s cut to the chase:

Who would Boston be willing to trade for Zion?  Would he be a good fit with Tatum and|or Brown? Doesn’t seem to fit well with Ingram. His defensive liability is an issue too.

Kemba and TL

[Who]

The trend of superstars holding their teams hostage and muscling their way to wherever they want before the end of their contracts has to stop. If anyone manages to do this while still on their rookie deal, that will be an explosive precedent for the league. I’m not entirely sure how a player could do this, other than to threaten to sign their 1-year qualifying offer after their rookie deal and become an unrestricted free agent afterwards, though that would sacrifice a lot of money.

There is this idea that you need to be at the end of your contract to force you way out. It is not true. You can force your way whenever you want if you are willing to do what is necessary.

(1) Just don't show up. Refuse to play. Hold out.

OR

(2) Show up but be terrible to work with. Be a horrid character in the locker room / practices. Dog it in games / practices. Make it impossible for them to keep you around. Be so negative and difficult that nobody wants to keep you. Make them want to get rid of you.


It is all about willpower and willingness to accept the negative fallout from the press, fans and fellow players. If you are willing to accept those things, you can accomplish your goal -- forcing your way out.

[Ogaju]

Why doesn’t the NBA just eliminate all the small market teams?  Just get rid of them.  Just have the New York’s, the LAs, the Miami’s just play each other every year.  Everybody gets to go to a big market!!!

Then maybe when half the star players in the NBA are turned into role players or just flat out unemployed, maybe some perspective will be learned

Because the NBA is complicit. They are making money hand over fist. None of this will change until the fans wake up and demand a seat at the table. Until then you will have the NBA, MEDIA, GOVERNORS, PLAYERS, all laughing their way to the bank, while selling the fans sugar water for $10.00, beer for $20.00, parking for $40-80, league pass with commercials for $300.00, and who knows how much for games.  The fans should demand better because it is the fans that pay for all this.

[Moranis]

What’s incompetent about David Griffin?

(1) Steven Adams -- putting a paint only big man next to your superstar interior PF who needs a clear paint to maximize his skill-set.

(2) Trading Jrue = Having the makings of a 45-50 win team that could easily become a 50+ team either through minor changes or internal development (Zion, Ingram, Ball) ... and deciding that is better to destroy that team and lose intentionally for longer team (possible) gains. Selling out Zion's short term ambitions.

(3) Putting Bledsoe a dodgy shooting PG next to your paint only center, interior based PF and dodgy shooting Lonzo Ball. Destroying your team's capacity to have any semblance of an offense due to not just inferior but outright pathetic spacing.


(4) I really cannot get over the sheer lack of ambition David Griffin has & the sheer lack of faith / confidence David Griffin has in his young stars (Zion, Ingram). He has two of the finest young players in the league - already on his team! They are already All-Stars (or at least clearly on the path to it last summer).

This isn't a team that is starting over from scratch and entering a 3-5 year rebuilding stage. This is a team that needs to start moving forwards. Build something. Win. His decision making and willingness to sacrifice the present for the future was unnecessary and insulting (to the players and to the fans).

The first 3 were all the same transaction

That transaction is:

Holiday, Kenrich Williams, a bunch of worthless players, and a couple of 2nd round picks for Adams, Bledsoe, 2 first round picks, and 2 pick swaps

That is a winning trade for New Orleans even with me agreeing that Adams and Bledsoe are not great fits because the reality is Holiday wasn't a great fit either. 

Griffin got hired in April 2019 and in general I think he has done an ok job.  The Davis trade was excellent (for a guy wanting out), though they lessened the effect some by doing the Hill, 4, 57 trade for 8, 17, 35 part of the trade.  I liked them bring in Favors and Redick as free agents 2 summers ago.  Not sure about the Lewis draft pick, but it is still early and the thinking made sense on that one.  Obviously they had the Holiday trade, which I think was a win.

All in all, I think Griffin has done an ok job with the hand he was dealt.  Zion is a 2nd year player, expecting them to really compete seems strange. 

[Who]

So ... I am pro-player's right to force their way out if needs must but I am also pro-team's right to say no.

In fact, I believe that this is almost always the right stance to take for a team - to deny a player's request to leave / trade demand. To clearly and forcefully say no. Tell them how much they are valued, that we want to win a title with you and this is our plan as to how we are going to do it.

Just because a player demands a trade does not mean his team has to accept it. Too many teams roll over and acquiesce to their player's trade demand. No! This is what bad GMs do. Any time you see a GM just accept a player's trade demand that is a sign they are incompetent at their job. No -- their job is to win and if keeping their star is how they win, they must fight to keep that star.


Most players when their team denies them their trade request will back down. Return to practice. Work hard and compete. Most players are unwilling be the compete and utter horse's ass that they need to be to force their way out. That is an advantage. That is a team's advantage. A GM's advantage. Use it.


I hate this idea that it is all over now that a player demanded a trade. No! It is just the start. The start of a conversation or a negotiation. Treat as a start. Not an ending. There is still time to alter outcomes.


You can always tell a weak-willed GM from a strong-willed GM by how they deal with their player's trade demands. Mitch Kupchak did a great job with Kobe Bryant when Kobe demanded a trade and Kupchak rarely gets much credit for it. But the Lakers won 2 NBA Titles because of his bravery. His willingness to say no. To stand up against Kobe but to do so in such a way that allowed them to maintain a relationship. That they could still work together afterwards. That is key. It is no use winning the fight if you have offended the player so much that he now resents you.

That is why you have to be clear and strong. Never waver. Do not offend. But be clear in your position. Maintain respect. Then offer a hand in which you make it clear you value your player and that you have a vision for how you can work together to achieve the player's goals.