Author Topic: Patriots 2017 season  (Read 76868 times)

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Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #285 on: December 19, 2017, 08:40:25 PM »

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Last night was yet another addition to the 17 year (and counting) thrill ride that is the Brady/Beichick Patriots.   I dont really care if anyone hates the call or thinks it's the wrong call or thinks it's an NFL conspiracy, the Pats pulled out the miracle and the ride continues for now.

Objectively, I can't fathom why the rule book would make that a 'no catch'.  My eyes tell me he caught it, controlled it, held it, stretched out, broke the plane and scored.  But I'll gladly take it.  What a great game.
There is a very good reason for it.

In your scenario a guy could "catch" the ball, immediately go down, and so long as he crosses the plane before he loses control everything is good.

But this opens up a whole can of worms.

What if the ball flies wildly out of the receiver's hands a split second after he crosses the plane? Did he truly establish control if he can't hold on through that simple action? What if he briefly looked like he had control but really didn't? How short a time does he have to have it before he touches the plane for it to count?


The current rule removes all this ambiguity. After a reception you must control the ball all the way through the ground or you don't receive credit for a catch. It doesn't matter what part of the field you're on. Just hold on to the ball all the way through the ground. It's the player's responsibility to know these rules and follow them.


If the Pittsburgh receiver had just barely crossed the plane after the catch and then lost the ball in mid-air and still gotten credit for a TD Pats fans would be livid.


Truth is that football is a very tough game to officiate, and someone is going to be angry every time. Like on that 37-yard reception by Cooks that was called back because he was shoved out of bounds and was the first to touch the ball. He really only had one leg out of bounds for half a second before he jumped back in, and still it was enough. He beat his man but lost the reception due to a technicality. It didn't "feel" right, and yet there are good reasons for the rule.

The best teams - like the Patriots - know the intricacies and use it to their advantage (Malcolm Butler's goal-line strip-fumble earlier in the year for a touchback is a good example). The others are left with excuses and conspiracy theories.

I understand what you are saying, but it isn't actually always true that you must control the ball all the way to the ground.  A player can catch a ball, run ten yards, fall to the ground, bobble the ball when it touches the ground, and yes, it's a catch.  My point is that my eyes tell me that James controlled the ball before he crossed the plane and the ball hit the ground.  I get the need for objectivity -- but when the eye test tells you it was a catch before the ball goes to the ground, the rules should match the reality.  He caught it, pulled it in, went to the ground, crossed the plane as he reached out with the ball in control (the whole time in complete control of the ball), and then... it hit the ground and the ground loosened his grip.  That play looks like a catch.  If it happened mid-field, it should be a catch and if the ball pops up off the ground it would be a fumble (assuming he really loses the ball and is untouched). It shouldn't be a fumble in the end-zone because the plane was crossed when in control of the ball (this is my opinion, clearly at odds with current rules).   I was thrilled with the call and I understand the current rules and precedent -- I don't dispute the call based on current rules -- but it looks too much like a catch to not be a catch, IMO.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #286 on: December 19, 2017, 08:50:17 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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I think one problem is we more often have these debates about catch/no catch in the end zone. I did see this article with some quotes from Belicheck himself, and the basic point is this:

- Jesse James, when trying to make that catch, was going to the ground, had a knee down, and was reaching in one motion, but was never touched by a defender.

- If that was ruled a touchdown, it would mean that what he did should be a catch anywhere on the field.

- Since he was never touched, the ground COULD cause a fumble, which means if he was just doing that and trying to get a first down at the 50, the people who want that to be a catch would want that to be a catch and fumble if it happened outside the endzone.


https://sports.yahoo.com/m/404d0149-fb61-3067-b596-f6c5e115bab4/ss_patriots'-bill-belichick.html


So that's the unintended consequences thing, and why rules have definitions. If you want that to be a touchdown, get ready to live with a lot more catch and fumbles.
Not sure what you are trying to say here but whether he was touched or not is inconsequential. No matter where you are on the field, when making a catch while going to the ground, you must maintain complete control of the ball all the way through the entire fall. It doesn't matter where you are or whether you are being touched or have 3 guys on top of you. You must control the ball all the way through the fall.

Yes, I agree. Jesse James did not make a catch. The point I was making, that I saw BB make, is that there are a lot of people saying that that was definitely a catch and TD for Jesse James. But, to those people, if that is what you believe, since a "catch" rule has to be universally consistent, then you also have to live with that being a catch, fumble, turnover if it happens at the 50. Would people want that? I don't know.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #287 on: December 19, 2017, 08:52:03 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Last night was yet another addition to the 17 year (and counting) thrill ride that is the Brady/Beichick Patriots.   I dont really care if anyone hates the call or thinks it's the wrong call or thinks it's an NFL conspiracy, the Pats pulled out the miracle and the ride continues for now.

Objectively, I can't fathom why the rule book would make that a 'no catch'.  My eyes tell me he caught it, controlled it, held it, stretched out, broke the plane and scored.  But I'll gladly take it.  What a great game.
There is a very good reason for it.

In your scenario a guy could "catch" the ball, immediately go down, and so long as he crosses the plane before he loses control everything is good.

But this opens up a whole can of worms.

What if the ball flies wildly out of the receiver's hands a split second after he crosses the plane? Did he truly establish control if he can't hold on through that simple action? What if he briefly looked like he had control but really didn't? How short a time does he have to have it before he touches the plane for it to count?


The current rule removes all this ambiguity. After a reception you must control the ball all the way through the ground or you don't receive credit for a catch. It doesn't matter what part of the field you're on. Just hold on to the ball all the way through the ground. It's the player's responsibility to know these rules and follow them.


If the Pittsburgh receiver had just barely crossed the plane after the catch and then lost the ball in mid-air and still gotten credit for a TD Pats fans would be livid.


Truth is that football is a very tough game to officiate, and someone is going to be angry every time. Like on that 37-yard reception by Cooks that was called back because he was shoved out of bounds and was the first to touch the ball. He really only had one leg out of bounds for half a second before he jumped back in, and still it was enough. He beat his man but lost the reception due to a technicality. It didn't "feel" right, and yet there are good reasons for the rule.

The best teams - like the Patriots - know the intricacies and use it to their advantage (Malcolm Butler's goal-line strip-fumble earlier in the year for a touchback is a good example). The others are left with excuses and conspiracy theories.

I understand what you are saying, but it isn't actually always true that you must control the ball all the way to the ground.  A player can catch a ball, run ten yards, fall to the ground, bobble the ball when it touches the ground, and yes, it's a catch.  My point is that my eyes tell me that James controlled the ball before he crossed the plane and the ball hit the ground.  I get the need for objectivity -- but when the eye test tells you it was a catch before the ball goes to the ground, the rules should match the reality.  He caught it, pulled it in, went to the ground, crossed the plane as he reached out with the ball in control (the whole time in complete control of the ball), and then... it hit the ground and the ground loosened his grip.  That play looks like a catch.  If it happened mid-field, it should be a catch and if the ball pops up off the ground it would be a fumble (assuming he really loses the ball and is untouched). It shouldn't be a fumble in the end-zone because the plane was crossed when in control of the ball (this is my opinion, clearly at odds with current rules).   I was thrilled with the call and I understand the current rules and precedent -- I don't dispute the call based on current rules -- but it looks too much like a catch to not be a catch, IMO.
Except what you are saying didn't happen. James did not fall while catching the ball, control the ball, come to a complete stop to show control through the entire fall, then reach out across the goal line and lose control.

James in one motion while falling during the catch caught the ball, moved it slightly towards his mid section and then reached out across the goal line and before completing the fall and coming to a stop loss control of the ball. Hence, its an incompletion and it doesn't matter where he was on the field.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #288 on: December 19, 2017, 08:55:29 PM »

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Last night was yet another addition to the 17 year (and counting) thrill ride that is the Brady/Beichick Patriots.   I dont really care if anyone hates the call or thinks it's the wrong call or thinks it's an NFL conspiracy, the Pats pulled out the miracle and the ride continues for now.

Objectively, I can't fathom why the rule book would make that a 'no catch'.  My eyes tell me he caught it, controlled it, held it, stretched out, broke the plane and scored.  But I'll gladly take it.  What a great game.
There is a very good reason for it.

In your scenario a guy could "catch" the ball, immediately go down, and so long as he crosses the plane before he loses control everything is good.

But this opens up a whole can of worms.

What if the ball flies wildly out of the receiver's hands a split second after he crosses the plane? Did he truly establish control if he can't hold on through that simple action? What if he briefly looked like he had control but really didn't? How short a time does he have to have it before he touches the plane for it to count?


The current rule removes all this ambiguity. After a reception you must control the ball all the way through the ground or you don't receive credit for a catch. It doesn't matter what part of the field you're on. Just hold on to the ball all the way through the ground. It's the player's responsibility to know these rules and follow them.


If the Pittsburgh receiver had just barely crossed the plane after the catch and then lost the ball in mid-air and still gotten credit for a TD Pats fans would be livid.


Truth is that football is a very tough game to officiate, and someone is going to be angry every time. Like on that 37-yard reception by Cooks that was called back because he was shoved out of bounds and was the first to touch the ball. He really only had one leg out of bounds for half a second before he jumped back in, and still it was enough. He beat his man but lost the reception due to a technicality. It didn't "feel" right, and yet there are good reasons for the rule.

The best teams - like the Patriots - know the intricacies and use it to their advantage (Malcolm Butler's goal-line strip-fumble earlier in the year for a touchback is a good example). The others are left with excuses and conspiracy theories.

I understand what you are saying, but it isn't actually always true that you must control the ball all the way to the ground.  A player can catch a ball, run ten yards, fall to the ground, bobble the ball when it touches the ground, and yes, it's a catch.  My point is that my eyes tell me that James controlled the ball before he crossed the plane and the ball hit the ground.  I get the need for objectivity -- but when the eye test tells you it was a catch before the ball goes to the ground, the rules should match the reality.  He caught it, pulled it in, went to the ground, crossed the plane as he reached out with the ball in control (the whole time in complete control of the ball), and then... it hit the ground and the ground loosened his grip.  That play looks like a catch.  If it happened mid-field, it should be a catch and if the ball pops up off the ground it would be a fumble (assuming he really loses the ball and is untouched). It shouldn't be a fumble in the end-zone because the plane was crossed when in control of the ball (this is my opinion, clearly at odds with current rules).   I was thrilled with the call and I understand the current rules and precedent -- I don't dispute the call based on current rules -- but it looks too much like a catch to not be a catch, IMO.

This situation reminds me of one from the NBA: When a player catches a pass on a fast break, does the step he's taking as he catches the ball count as one of his two allowed steps?

What am I saying, though? It's the NBA; travels are usually encouraged. :P

Regarding your analogy of the midfield catch, I think about Edelman's catch in the last Super Bowl: If his hands had been to the sides of the ball instead of under it, and consequently the ball had touched the ground as Edelman fell to the ground, that wouldn't have been a catch.
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Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #289 on: December 21, 2017, 03:33:30 PM »

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Regarding Garoppolo, I don't see how you can watch that game yesterday and think that he will ever be nearly as good as Brady (or Roethlisberger for that matter).
Are you sure?

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Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #290 on: December 21, 2017, 03:55:56 PM »

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Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #291 on: December 21, 2017, 04:13:14 PM »

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Regarding Garoppolo, I don't see how you can watch that game yesterday and think that he will ever be nearly as good as Brady (or Roethlisberger for that matter).
Are you sure?

https://twitter.com/49ers/status/943711300265295872

Of course not.  I have been wrong plenty.  But at this point, I don't think Garaoppolo has the arm to be a star QB.  I am sticking with my Alex Smith prediction as his ceiling.  Alex Smith is a decent starting QB who on a good team can take a team a long way.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #292 on: December 21, 2017, 04:13:34 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Regarding Garoppolo, I don't see how you can watch that game yesterday and think that he will ever be nearly as good as Brady (or Roethlisberger for that matter).
Are you sure?

https://twitter.com/49ers/status/943711300265295872

Of course not.  I have been wrong plenty.  But at this point, I don't think Garaoppolo has the arm to be a star QB.  I am sticking with my Alex Smith prediction as his ceiling.  Alex Smith is a decent starting QB who on a good team can take a team a long way.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #293 on: December 21, 2017, 04:49:26 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Regarding Garoppolo, I don't see how you can watch that game yesterday and think that he will ever be nearly as good as Brady (or Roethlisberger for that matter).
Are you sure?

https://twitter.com/49ers/status/943711300265295872

Of course not.  I have been wrong plenty.  But at this point, I don't think Garaoppolo has the arm to be a star QB.  I am sticking with my Alex Smith prediction as his ceiling.  Alex Smith is a decent starting QB who on a good team can take a team a long way.
I haven't seen anything that suggests Garoppolo's arm isn't as big as Brady's. As a matter of fact, it seems slightly bigger as he makes big throws downfield with a little less effort and a little more precision than Brady. At least that's what I saw last year. Alex Smith is a small-ball QB. Garoppolo isn't.

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Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #294 on: December 21, 2017, 05:41:07 PM »

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Regarding Garoppolo, I don't see how you can watch that game yesterday and think that he will ever be nearly as good as Brady (or Roethlisberger for that matter).
Are you sure?

https://twitter.com/49ers/status/943711300265295872

Of course not.  I have been wrong plenty.  But at this point, I don't think Garaoppolo has the arm to be a star QB.  I am sticking with my Alex Smith prediction as his ceiling.  Alex Smith is a decent starting QB who on a good team can take a team a long way.
I haven't seen anything that suggests Garoppolo's arm isn't as big as Brady's. As a matter of fact, it seems slightly bigger as he makes big throws downfield with a little less effort and a little more precision than Brady. At least that's what I saw last year. Alex Smith is a small-ball QB. Garoppolo isn't.

I hope Garoppolo is great.  Who cares? Not me.  We've been treated to the best stretch of football in history by the best coach and QB of all-time.   Jimmy G is irrelevant, especially right now while the GOAT is still toiling at MVP level.  Someday when (if) Brady is no longer good and Garoppolo is great, maybe then I'll feel differently, but for now I am indifferent to JG's success.  There was no way to keep him realistically anyway - and it's useless pout over whether the draft pick we got wasn't as high as it could have been.   Maybe Bill will select Brady's true successor with pick #35.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #295 on: December 24, 2017, 01:53:16 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I hope Garoppolo is great.  Who cares? Not me.  We've been treated to the best stretch of football in history by the best coach and QB of all-time.   Jimmy G is irrelevant, especially right now while the GOAT is still toiling at MVP level.  Someday when (if) Brady is no longer good and Garoppolo is great, maybe then I'll feel differently, but for now I am indifferent to JG's success.  There was no way to keep him realistically anyway - and it's useless pout over whether the draft pick we got wasn't as high as it could have been.   Maybe Bill will select Brady's true successor with pick #35.
That's the point, though. The GOAT hasn't really toiled at MVP level over the last 5 games.
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Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #296 on: December 24, 2017, 02:34:33 PM »

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Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #297 on: December 24, 2017, 02:34:55 PM »

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May someone explain how that was NOT a catch? Seemed to me Benjamin's foot dragged and had position.
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Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #298 on: December 24, 2017, 02:39:37 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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May someone explain how that was NOT a catch? Seemed to me Benjamin's foot dragged and had position.
He didn't have control when his toe dragged on the turf, and by the time he had, the toe was up and didn't go up again until out of bounds.
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Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #299 on: December 24, 2017, 07:10:47 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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I hope Garoppolo is great.  Who cares? Not me.  We've been treated to the best stretch of football in history by the best coach and QB of all-time.   Jimmy G is irrelevant, especially right now while the GOAT is still toiling at MVP level.  Someday when (if) Brady is no longer good and Garoppolo is great, maybe then I'll feel differently, but for now I am indifferent to JG's success.  There was no way to keep him realistically anyway - and it's useless pout over whether the draft pick we got wasn't as high as it could have been.   Maybe Bill will select Brady's true successor with pick #35.
That's the point, though. The GOAT hasn't really toiled at MVP level over the last 5 games.

Agreed.  While we've been able to squeak out some wins lately, the team (and Brady) have me concerned for the postseason for the first time in years. 
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