Allen for CarterTrade--Discussion on what is realistic trade return for Allen

[nickagneta]

Apparently people aren't reading the entire thread and aren't getting the jist out of what point I am trying to make, so I changed the topic heading.

To Boston:

Vince Carter
Stromile Swift

To New Jersey
Ray Allen
A 2nd round future pick.


I know, I know. I am almost embarassed bringing up such a bad trade. I hate it. But I am using it as the type of trade that I think could extend the Celtic window out further than 2 more years and at the same time maximize our return on Ray Allen's roster slot.

The obvious reasons for New Jersey is that until it becomes time to take LeBron off of Cleveland's hands in 2010, it gives NJ a viable player. It also runs out at the perfect tiem and NJ could renounce Ray and have silly cap room to pursue LeBron.

For Boston It extends the championship window. Carter is two years younger than Ray and if KG and PP can knock some sense into this guy and he can bring an unselfish game to the table, the Celtics might have just upgraded the 2 position for now and since he is signed on through the year after KG he would "extend the window". Also Swift isn't a horrible backup C who is a real 7 footer for one year as he expires after this year..

As much as I think both Swift and Carter can be head cases, no strike that, are head cases, I feel that if there was ever a place where both could shine and redeem themselves and their careers it could be with this team the way it is currently constructed with the top veterans and coaching staff.

I have to say, I hate the trade. I don't think Vinsanity will ever be anything but the selfish scorer that he is and Swift, well I don't know. He has always been an enigma. So much talent and physical prowess, so little production.

Anyway, is this the type of return on the dollar that the Celtics could expect from a trade of Ray Allen's expiring contract? Or is this 2 little or too much?

[wdleehi]

I am going to have to say no. 

1) I like Ray for this team better

2) I don't want to help NJ get Lebron.

[Rondo2287]

There is nothing that would disgust me more than seeing Vince Carter in a Boston uniform.  He is a team killer, hasnt won anywhere he has gone, and I dont just mean a title I mean gone deep into the playoffs anywhere.  He is a guy that will need more shots than Ray to be productive and from all signs just a bad chemistry guy in general. 

[JSD]

I hate it.

VC is a poor mans Paul Pierce despite how scary even their career numbers are.

How is this an extension? VC is only a year or two behind RA.

[RonJohn]

He doesn't play defense, has a bad attitude and is a ME FIRST player. Why even think about this? Plus we would be saddled with another MAX player past Ray's contract. Why is everyone trying to trade Ray Allen right now? His value is only going to be greater as his contract becomes expiring.

[Chief]

Sure. Why not? I think if Carter could get out of NJ, it might recharge his batteries for about 2 years.

[nickagneta]

As much as I agree with you guys I hope you are reading the entire post and realizing what the post is actually asking!

Is this the type of trade the Celtics could expect and the type of return they can expect for Ray Allen in a trade for his contract?
And the reason it extends the window is because if Vince comes here and changes, he is signed two years longer than Ray. It would extend the team's chance at least two years as VC will be signed until 2013, KG is signed until 2012, and I would expect the Celtics to extend Pierce. He is a Celtic for life, the only one of the Big Three I personally expect to retire a Celtic.

[wdleehi]

As much as I agree with you guys I hope you are reading the entire post and realizing what the post is actually asking!

Is this the type of trade the Celtics could expect and the type of return they can expect for Ray Allen in a trade for his contract?
And the reason it extends the window is because if Vince comes here and changes, he is signed two years longer than Ray. It would extend the team's chance at least two years as VC will be signed until 2013, KG is signed until 2012, and I would expect the Celtics to extend Pierce. He is a Celtic for life, the only one of the Big Three I personally expect to retire a Celtic.

I think the Celtics want to get one more year out of Ray before looking to move him.  He has enough in the tank for another title run. 

[canman1971]

Boo!!!  I wouldn't want Carter anywhere near this team. 

[nickagneta]

As much as I agree with you guys I hope you are reading the entire post and realizing what the post is actually asking!

Is this the type of trade the Celtics could expect and the type of return they can expect for Ray Allen in a trade for his contract?
And the reason it extends the window is because if Vince comes here and changes, he is signed two years longer than Ray. It would extend the team's chance at least two years as VC will be signed until 2013, KG is signed until 2012, and I would expect the Celtics to extend Pierce. He is a Celtic for life, the only one of the Big Three I personally expect to retire a Celtic.

I think the Celtics want to get one more year out of Ray before looking to move him.  He has enough in the tank for another title run. 

Agreed.

What about next year? If we trade him then are we looking at superstars with bad reps or some sort of serious flaws or are we looking at a bunch of good flotsam and jetsam?

[iowa plowboy]

The only places Tank Carter will see a championship team is from the stands or in front of a television.

The tankster belongs on a team like the Knicks pre-D'Antoni.

[Jeff]

proven winner for a proven loser?  no thanks!

[JSD]

I don't have it twisted. I know you are referring to next summer and all but I just don't think VC will ever be the answer.

What about this scenario:

Let Ray Expire and extend him for 3 years at 20 Million – 6.7
Let Paul Expire and extend him for 3 years at 25 Million - 8.33 -/YR
Let Kg Expire and extend him for 3 years at 30 Million - 10/YR


Work around the big 3 with rookie development, packaged trades and solid FA signings to maintain contention.

[oldmanspeaks]

From everything I have seen and read Carter is sliding downhill faster than Ray Allen. Since Carter's game is about being an athlete, that is a big deal. Ray's strength (shooting) can last a while. Also it is Ray's shooting that extends the floor and that won't happen with Carter. This would be a bad trade from an offensive perspective. It would be just trying to copy Paul Pierce with a poorer copy and that isn't what the Celtic's offense requires.

[Jon]

I think the thing that some people overlook is how irreplaceable Ray Allen is.  Now that's not even to say that he's better than Vince Carter (though I think he is).  But Ray Allen meshes with Pierce and Garnett in a way that most other big stars couldn't. 

Ray Allen altered his game much more than Pierce and Garnett did.  When all three were on the court at once, the C's played the two man game with Pierce and Garnett much more than they did plays that involved Ray Allen.  A good portion of the time Allen was merely a weakside spot up shooter, waiting for a kickout to come from Pierce or Garnett on the inside.  This by no means was what he was used to doing in Seattle and Milwaukee.  And it is apparent it was hard for him to adjust to this role psychologically given his intermittent struggles throughout the year.  Thankfully Allen is probably the best shooter in the NBA and could adjust; however, given how cold he got sometimes, it's apparent that it was tough for him to adjust to not being involved in nearly every play. 

Furthermore, Allen's shooting range made coexisting with Pierce and Garnett all the more doable.  Since all three of them had great range, it cleared enough space on the floor for all three to be dangerous.  Take away that range from the equation, and you get something like the Olajuwon/Barkley/Pippen Rockets.  Good, but not great, since their games were all based on being 15 feet or closer to the basket. 

So I'd be very loathe to trade Ray.  The way he's adjusted his game and the specific talents he possesses are going to be hard to replace.  Moreover, given the way he's playing now, I see no reason why he's going to slow down anytime soon.  Most of his scoring is coming off of weakside threes and screen plays, which is exactly how Reggie Miller stayed in the game so long: the times he takes it to the hoop off the dribble (when he could face banging inside) are few and far between.  While I wouldn't bet the house on it, I wouldn't be shocked if Allen maintains his high level of play longer than many people expect.