Trading the TPE for a “star”

[ozgod]

In threads about John Collins, Victor Oladipo and Harrison Barnes, a common refrain is “I don’t want to use the TPE on them; we need to use it on a star”.

I’m curious, what type of star are people dreaming of?  And remember, that star has to be making $28.6 million or less, and can’t be acquired via sign-and-trade.

What options are out there?  Is the singular focus a complicated three way deal for Beal that may not be legal?  Otherwise, what is a “star”?  A one-time all-star?  Perennial all-stars only?  All-NBA?  MVP candidates?

I suspect that a lot of folks are going to be disappointed.

One of the risks of trading for a "star" is that we end up possibly going back to where we started, with too many mouths to feed. I think we need to consider not just the quality of the player but whether they will be happy being a 3rd-to-4th stringer. Clearly Gordon wasn't happy with his usage, he wanted to be more of a headliner and not just the guy standing in the corner spacing the floor. I suspect a number of the players people have in mind as "stars" will have looked at how Gordon and Kemba have been used over the past few years and be considering if that's something they will be happy with. In other words since we have a one-two already, if we're going to get a star we want someone with a Ray Allen attitude in that he'd be willing to sacrifice his numbers to win a chip.

Now since it's a trade they might not have much say in things, but the last thing you want is to trade for a guy in the $25m+ bracket who won't be happy with taking a back seat role to the Jays and Kemba. I think about Vucevic, he's been named a lot and would probably be great for our team, but his usage is nearly 30% right now and he's averaging 24.5 ppg and 11.7 ppg. He won't get that usage and those numbers in our team, not unless the Jays sacrifice their numbers and usage. Kemba already has sacrificed his numbers, he's averaging what, 18 ppg? Some of it would come from the player that Vuc would replace, presumably from Theis and Thompson but some will have to come from the top.

I think that's what Danny needs to be cognizant of. If we're going to get a "star" it has to be someone willing to sacrifice and fulfill the type of support role that Hayward filled for us the last couple of years. Otherwise it might make more sense to break that TPE up into a number of players to get a No3 type player (like a Bogdanovic type player) and a couple of reliable rotation players for bench scoring.

[slamtheking]

If I’m not mistaken, the Celtics can split up the TPE. Trading the TPE for some sort of star player is not realistic at all. There may be teams on the edge of having enough room to sign a max free agent, but need to shed salary to get there for this coming off season. I think this may be the area the Celtics need to focus. The team needs to strengthen their depth and look to acquire players that are will be 4-8 on the depth chart.

BTW, in a radio interview Wyc did on the Felger and Mazz show recently, he pretty much said the team won’t use the TPE during this season (because of the hard cap), but rather during the off season.

my thoughts on it are similar to this.

they're not going to get a player that's going to make them contenders this year.  team has a number of issues that aren't going to be addressed by one player with the portion of the TPE we can spend.   At this point, I think the team may be better off waiting until the offseason to use the TPE (which is pretty much what I figured they'd do all along).

in the offseason, I would prefer they use the bulk of it to bring in another all-star level talent that makes the amount of the TPE (or less) to really improve the team.  I'm not so sure they'll be able to pull that off BUT that TPE is more than large enough to sign 2-3 really good players that would shore up the bench so we're not relying on the youth to immediately contribute nor on vets that seem to be struggling to stay in the league.  I could see a vet PG to replace Teague and a vet 3+D wing to come off the bench.  perhaps a legit PF that has a reliable shot out to 18 feet, plays good D and can rebound.

You can't sign players into the TPE, you can only trade players into it or claim players put on waivers into it. You can sign and trade players into it but that would hardcap the team and that won't be happening next year.

right, so I'm referring to trades of players will leave their current teams either because they want to leave or because the team doesn't want to pay them what they want.  Our way of getting decent players while maybe having to give up minor assets to acquire them such as a second round pick or deadweight bench player + cash for a buyout or even just providing that team with their own TPE.  I'm not saying this won't require some work by Danny to get it done but it's far from impossible. 

[Roy H.]

I think the fundamental question is, do we want to add to the team as it is constructed now, hoping to make a push in the next year or two? Or, are we targeting a long term building block piece?

I hope to target a player that the team wants to keep for the next 5+ years.  I am not wildly excited about adding old veterans to this team, as marginal short-term upgrades are not what we need.

I’m back to the guys I originally listed:  Collins, Barnes, Oladipo.  Depending on health, Aaron Gordon or Fournier.

I don’t think that we will do better, but I am hopeful that we will not do you worse.

[todd_days_41]

In threads about John Collins, Victor Oladipo and Harrison Barnes, a common refrain is “I don’t want to use the TPE on them; we need to use it on a star”.

I’m curious, what type of star are people dreaming of?  And remember, that star has to be making $28.6 million or less, and can’t be acquired via sign-and-trade.

What options are out there?  Is the singular focus a complicated three way deal for Beal that may not be legal?  Otherwise, what is a “star”?  A one-time all-star?  Perennial all-stars only?  All-NBA?  MVP candidates?

I suspect that a lot of folks are going to be disappointed.

I'd rather trade for re-sign DeRozen than those three. I think the price (in trade) for value might be the best of the bunch. I also get the feeling that from a culture perspective DeRozen may fit in / be good for the Cs.

DeRozan is almost 32, though, and we’d have to send out significant salary to stay under the tax.  What’s the point?

He's 9 months older than Walker (without the shot knee). What's the point of having Walker?

Oladipo and Barnes aren't exactly spring chickens. I get the desire for Barnes as a fit and due to being under contract. If he could be had for a value-ish price then I can see that more clearly, as well.

Oladipo is not a move for the future. He leaving this summer if you trade for him -- no illusions there. He's going to Miami. I'm not trading for a guy who is simply waiting to sign with the Heat.

And I'm not sold on Collins at the price of both trade and re-sign required.

 

[nickagneta]

In threads about John Collins, Victor Oladipo and Harrison Barnes, a common refrain is “I don’t want to use the TPE on them; we need to use it on a star”.

I’m curious, what type of star are people dreaming of?  And remember, that star has to be making $28.6 million or less, and can’t be acquired via sign-and-trade.

What options are out there?  Is the singular focus a complicated three way deal for Beal that may not be legal?  Otherwise, what is a “star”?  A one-time all-star?  Perennial all-stars only?  All-NBA?  MVP candidates?

I suspect that a lot of folks are going to be disappointed.

I'd rather trade for re-sign DeRozen than those three. I think the price (in trade) for value might be the best of the bunch. I also get the feeling that from a culture perspective DeRozen may fit in / be good for the Cs.

DeRozan is almost 32, though, and we’d have to send out significant salary to stay under the tax.  What’s the point?

He's 9 months older than Walker (without the shot knee). What's the point of having Walker?

Oladipo and Barnes aren't exactly spring chickens. I get the desire for Barnes as a fit and due to being under contract. If he could be had for a value-ish price then I can see that more clearly, as well.

Oladipo is not a move for the future. He leaving this summer if you trade for him -- no illusions there. He's going to Miami. I'm not trading for a guy who is simply waiting to sign with the Heat.

And I'm not sold on Collins at the price of both trade and re-sign required.

Kemba's knee is shot??? I am surprised by how many posters still feel this way after watching Kemba the last three weeks.

Maybe someone should tell Kemba his knee is shot, because, after his understandable slow start due to having no training camp, preseason or practice with the team, he has averaged the following over the last three weeks(8 games):

22.4 PPG
3.9 RPG
4.5 APG
1.3 SPG
43.7% FG%
40. 8% 3PT%
94.1% FT%
59.7% TS%
And drawing probably at least one drawn charge a game.

If he continues at that rate with a shot knee, does that mean he has had a shot knee his entire career, because the numbers are extremely similar?

[todd_days_41]

In threads about John Collins, Victor Oladipo and Harrison Barnes, a common refrain is “I don’t want to use the TPE on them; we need to use it on a star”.

I’m curious, what type of star are people dreaming of?  And remember, that star has to be making $28.6 million or less, and can’t be acquired via sign-and-trade.

What options are out there?  Is the singular focus a complicated three way deal for Beal that may not be legal?  Otherwise, what is a “star”?  A one-time all-star?  Perennial all-stars only?  All-NBA?  MVP candidates?

I suspect that a lot of folks are going to be disappointed.

I'd rather trade for re-sign DeRozen than those three. I think the price (in trade) for value might be the best of the bunch. I also get the feeling that from a culture perspective DeRozen may fit in / be good for the Cs.

DeRozan is almost 32, though, and we’d have to send out significant salary to stay under the tax.  What’s the point?

He's 9 months older than Walker (without the shot knee). What's the point of having Walker?

Oladipo and Barnes aren't exactly spring chickens. I get the desire for Barnes as a fit and due to being under contract. If he could be had for a value-ish price then I can see that more clearly, as well.

Oladipo is not a move for the future. He leaving this summer if you trade for him -- no illusions there. He's going to Miami. I'm not trading for a guy who is simply waiting to sign with the Heat.

And I'm not sold on Collins at the price of both trade and re-sign required.

Kemba's knee is shot??? I am surprised by how many posters still feel this way after watching Kemba the last three weeks.

Maybe someone should tell Kemba his knee is shot, because, after his understandable slow start due to having no training camp, preseason or practice with the team, he has averaged the following over the last three weeks(8 games):

22.4 PPG
3.9 RPG
4.5 APG
1.3 SPG
43.7% FG%
40. 8% 3PT%
94.1% FT%
59.7% TS%
And drawing probably at least one drawn charge a game.

If he continues at that rate with a shot knee, does that mean he has had a shot knee his entire career, because the numbers are extremely similar?

Great. So Kemba is fine and DeRozen is on Kemba's timeline. Why would you sign Walker to a massive long term contract but shy away from DeRozen?

[GreenEnvy]

I would legitimately consider trading for Vucevic in the offseason. I think he's one of those guys who may not "sound" like a star, but he absolutely has played like one this season and his contract isn't as egregious. He's still just 30, and I think he'd be a nice fit here. 

Look, lets face it. There really aren't many "superstar" bigs in the NBA nowadays. You have Davis, Embiid, Giannis, KAT and Jokic basically. Unless KAT becomes available, I don't see how you can really acquire any one of these guys. KAT would definitely cost you one of Tatum or Brown, and probably another piece like Smart or Timelord. And frankly I don't even think you need to trade for him. Vucevic is really good and could complement our two primary stars really well (Tatum, Brown).

There are other options like Barnes, DeRozan, etc.

Beal is a pipe dream unless you guys really want to trade away Brown in the deal as well. No way Washington does it without him or Tatum included. Other teams can easily outbid us.

If you can’t get Collins before the deadline, Vucevic is who you go all out for. He’s a star, but doesn’t fit with Orlando’s timeline. I’d give 3 firsts for him. He’s be a great fit alongside the Jays.

[nickagneta]

In threads about John Collins, Victor Oladipo and Harrison Barnes, a common refrain is “I don’t want to use the TPE on them; we need to use it on a star”.

I’m curious, what type of star are people dreaming of?  And remember, that star has to be making $28.6 million or less, and can’t be acquired via sign-and-trade.

What options are out there?  Is the singular focus a complicated three way deal for Beal that may not be legal?  Otherwise, what is a “star”?  A one-time all-star?  Perennial all-stars only?  All-NBA?  MVP candidates?

I suspect that a lot of folks are going to be disappointed.

I'd rather trade for re-sign DeRozen than those three. I think the price (in trade) for value might be the best of the bunch. I also get the feeling that from a culture perspective DeRozen may fit in / be good for the Cs.

DeRozan is almost 32, though, and we’d have to send out significant salary to stay under the tax.  What’s the point?

He's 9 months older than Walker (without the shot knee). What's the point of having Walker?

Oladipo and Barnes aren't exactly spring chickens. I get the desire for Barnes as a fit and due to being under contract. If he could be had for a value-ish price then I can see that more clearly, as well.

Oladipo is not a move for the future. He leaving this summer if you trade for him -- no illusions there. He's going to Miami. I'm not trading for a guy who is simply waiting to sign with the Heat.

And I'm not sold on Collins at the price of both trade and re-sign required.

Kemba's knee is shot??? I am surprised by how many posters still feel this way after watching Kemba the last three weeks.

Maybe someone should tell Kemba his knee is shot, because, after his understandable slow start due to having no training camp, preseason or practice with the team, he has averaged the following over the last three weeks(8 games):

22.4 PPG
3.9 RPG
4.5 APG
1.3 SPG
43.7% FG%
40. 8% 3PT%
94.1% FT%
59.7% TS%
And drawing probably at least one drawn charge a game.

If he continues at that rate with a shot knee, does that mean he has had a shot knee his entire career, because the numbers are extremely similar?

Great. So Kemba is fine and DeRozen is on Kemba's timeline. Why would you sign Walker to a massive long term contract but shy away from DeRozen?

Not sure why you are asking me this. I was only disputing your opinion that Kemba's knee is shot. I think he is showing it's not.

I really have no opinion on bringing in DeRozan, either way. He's a great player but more a mid range guy than a three point shooter. It might be advisable with the way this team is constructed to get a guy that's a better three point shooter.

[Vermont Green]

I am not sure I understand what is being debated here.  We obviously should bring the most amount of talent possible with the TPE.  If that is one player, it has to be someone on a contract that fits the $28.5M and/or the hard cap and it has to be someone that another team is willing to trade for essentially draft picks (with our picks not being great picks).

I think it is that reality, not any issue with too many mouths to feed or whatever, that will limit what we can do with the TPE.  We are not going to get a single player that is a star (I don't consider DeRozan or Barnes for example stars).  If we could get Vucevic (which would require moving Thompson or equivalent salary) great.  That would be a nice pick up.  Causes some downstream salary cap/tax issues but maybe we end up moving Walker in the off season to alleviate that.

It just seems more likely that we use the TPE to pick up more of a medium grade player or players.  A solid veteran either big or wing.

[todd_days_41]

In threads about John Collins, Victor Oladipo and Harrison Barnes, a common refrain is “I don’t want to use the TPE on them; we need to use it on a star”.

I’m curious, what type of star are people dreaming of?  And remember, that star has to be making $28.6 million or less, and can’t be acquired via sign-and-trade.

What options are out there?  Is the singular focus a complicated three way deal for Beal that may not be legal?  Otherwise, what is a “star”?  A one-time all-star?  Perennial all-stars only?  All-NBA?  MVP candidates?

I suspect that a lot of folks are going to be disappointed.

I'd rather trade for re-sign DeRozen than those three. I think the price (in trade) for value might be the best of the bunch. I also get the feeling that from a culture perspective DeRozen may fit in / be good for the Cs.

DeRozan is almost 32, though, and we’d have to send out significant salary to stay under the tax.  What’s the point?

He's 9 months older than Walker (without the shot knee). What's the point of having Walker?

Oladipo and Barnes aren't exactly spring chickens. I get the desire for Barnes as a fit and due to being under contract. If he could be had for a value-ish price then I can see that more clearly, as well.

Oladipo is not a move for the future. He leaving this summer if you trade for him -- no illusions there. He's going to Miami. I'm not trading for a guy who is simply waiting to sign with the Heat.

And I'm not sold on Collins at the price of both trade and re-sign required.

Kemba's knee is shot??? I am surprised by how many posters still feel this way after watching Kemba the last three weeks.

Maybe someone should tell Kemba his knee is shot, because, after his understandable slow start due to having no training camp, preseason or practice with the team, he has averaged the following over the last three weeks(8 games):

22.4 PPG
3.9 RPG
4.5 APG
1.3 SPG
43.7% FG%
40. 8% 3PT%
94.1% FT%
59.7% TS%
And drawing probably at least one drawn charge a game.

If he continues at that rate with a shot knee, does that mean he has had a shot knee his entire career, because the numbers are extremely similar?

Great. So Kemba is fine and DeRozen is on Kemba's timeline. Why would you sign Walker to a massive long term contract but shy away from DeRozen?

Not sure why you are asking me this. I was only disputing your opinion that Kemba's knee is shot. I think he is showing it's not.

I really have no opinion on bringing in DeRozan, either way. He's a great player but more a mid range guy than a three point shooter. It might be advisable with the way this team is constructed to get a guy that's a better three point shooter.

You quoted my point on Walker's fit and / or the (lack of) difference of DeRozen's.... not asking you specifically, simply making the point that not everyone on the team needs to be 24 for them to win.

And if the guy can score some other way than the 3 ball... just fine by me. Maybe he takes minutes away from some guys who can't. 

[Roy H.]

In threads about John Collins, Victor Oladipo and Harrison Barnes, a common refrain is “I don’t want to use the TPE on them; we need to use it on a star”.

I’m curious, what type of star are people dreaming of?  And remember, that star has to be making $28.6 million or less, and can’t be acquired via sign-and-trade.

What options are out there?  Is the singular focus a complicated three way deal for Beal that may not be legal?  Otherwise, what is a “star”?  A one-time all-star?  Perennial all-stars only?  All-NBA?  MVP candidates?

I suspect that a lot of folks are going to be disappointed.

I'd rather trade for re-sign DeRozen than those three. I think the price (in trade) for value might be the best of the bunch. I also get the feeling that from a culture perspective DeRozen may fit in / be good for the Cs.

DeRozan is almost 32, though, and we’d have to send out significant salary to stay under the tax.  What’s the point?

He's 9 months older than Walker (without the shot knee). What's the point of having Walker?

Oladipo and Barnes aren't exactly spring chickens. I get the desire for Barnes as a fit and due to being under contract. If he could be had for a value-ish price then I can see that more clearly, as well.

Oladipo is not a move for the future. He leaving this summer if you trade for him -- no illusions there. He's going to Miami. I'm not trading for a guy who is simply waiting to sign with the Heat.

And I'm not sold on Collins at the price of both trade and re-sign required.

Kemba's knee is shot??? I am surprised by how many posters still feel this way after watching Kemba the last three weeks.

Maybe someone should tell Kemba his knee is shot, because, after his understandable slow start due to having no training camp, preseason or practice with the team, he has averaged the following over the last three weeks(8 games):

22.4 PPG
3.9 RPG
4.5 APG
1.3 SPG
43.7% FG%
40. 8% 3PT%
94.1% FT%
59.7% TS%
And drawing probably at least one drawn charge a game.

If he continues at that rate with a shot knee, does that mean he has had a shot knee his entire career, because the numbers are extremely similar?

Great. So Kemba is fine and DeRozen is on Kemba's timeline. Why would you sign Walker to a massive long term contract but shy away from DeRozen?

Not sure why you are asking me this. I was only disputing your opinion that Kemba's knee is shot. I think he is showing it's not.

I really have no opinion on bringing in DeRozan, either way. He's a great player but more a mid range guy than a three point shooter. It might be advisable with the way this team is constructed to get a guy that's a better three point shooter.

You quoted my point on Walker's fit and / or the (lack of) difference of DeRozen's.... not asking you specifically, simply making the point that not everyone on the team needs to be 24 for them to win.

And if the guy can score some other way than the 3 ball... just fine by me. Maybe he takes minutes away from some guys who can't.

We brought in Kimber a couple of years ago to add to a team that already had Hayward. At this point, I’m not sure that it makes sense to load up on guys who are over 30, when our best players are still kids.  It does nothing to extend their window, and doesn’t make us true contenders in the short term.

[todd_days_41]

In threads about John Collins, Victor Oladipo and Harrison Barnes, a common refrain is “I don’t want to use the TPE on them; we need to use it on a star”.

I’m curious, what type of star are people dreaming of?  And remember, that star has to be making $28.6 million or less, and can’t be acquired via sign-and-trade.

What options are out there?  Is the singular focus a complicated three way deal for Beal that may not be legal?  Otherwise, what is a “star”?  A one-time all-star?  Perennial all-stars only?  All-NBA?  MVP candidates?

I suspect that a lot of folks are going to be disappointed.

I'd rather trade for re-sign DeRozen than those three. I think the price (in trade) for value might be the best of the bunch. I also get the feeling that from a culture perspective DeRozen may fit in / be good for the Cs.

DeRozan is almost 32, though, and we’d have to send out significant salary to stay under the tax.  What’s the point?

He's 9 months older than Walker (without the shot knee). What's the point of having Walker?

Oladipo and Barnes aren't exactly spring chickens. I get the desire for Barnes as a fit and due to being under contract. If he could be had for a value-ish price then I can see that more clearly, as well.

Oladipo is not a move for the future. He leaving this summer if you trade for him -- no illusions there. He's going to Miami. I'm not trading for a guy who is simply waiting to sign with the Heat.

And I'm not sold on Collins at the price of both trade and re-sign required.

Kemba's knee is shot??? I am surprised by how many posters still feel this way after watching Kemba the last three weeks.

Maybe someone should tell Kemba his knee is shot, because, after his understandable slow start due to having no training camp, preseason or practice with the team, he has averaged the following over the last three weeks(8 games):

22.4 PPG
3.9 RPG
4.5 APG
1.3 SPG
43.7% FG%
40. 8% 3PT%
94.1% FT%
59.7% TS%
And drawing probably at least one drawn charge a game.

If he continues at that rate with a shot knee, does that mean he has had a shot knee his entire career, because the numbers are extremely similar?

Great. So Kemba is fine and DeRozen is on Kemba's timeline. Why would you sign Walker to a massive long term contract but shy away from DeRozen?

Not sure why you are asking me this. I was only disputing your opinion that Kemba's knee is shot. I think he is showing it's not.

I really have no opinion on bringing in DeRozan, either way. He's a great player but more a mid range guy than a three point shooter. It might be advisable with the way this team is constructed to get a guy that's a better three point shooter.

You quoted my point on Walker's fit and / or the (lack of) difference of DeRozen's.... not asking you specifically, simply making the point that not everyone on the team needs to be 24 for them to win.

And if the guy can score some other way than the 3 ball... just fine by me. Maybe he takes minutes away from some guys who can't.

We brought in Kimber a couple of years ago to add to a team that already had Hayward. At this point, I’m not sure that it makes sense to load up on guys who are over 30, when our best players are still kids.  It does nothing to extend their window, and doesn’t make us true contenders in the short term.

Assuming the TPE is used (and other minor housekeeping), would you trade a '21 1st and Nesmith for:

DeRozen?
Oladipo?
Collins?
Barnes?

Any of them? All of them? And would their teams take that deal?

This is not an either / or question -- i'm trying to get a sense of view on value. Each circumstance is different due to age, Free Agency, etc.

I know Roy would take Collins, but won't we have to give up more to get him, just to pay him an obscene amount in the offseason?

One of the reasons I like DeRozen is a wonder if SAS will sell him a bit cheap if they know he's not resigning (or don't care to re-sign him if they're going young). I'm a 'no' on Oladipo.... as noted, he's going to Miami this offseason. 

Would SAC take that deal for Barnes?